Vondy Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 I make body armor and tactical gear for a living. As a result, I get to test the stuff out - preferably when I'm not wearing it! Mostly, we use IMI Class-IV hard-plates (non-ceramic, but I'm not sure exactly what) with Class-III kevlar on the "exposed" parts of the vests. They work really well (in fact, we've got one that took five 7.62 X 39 API hits at five meters distance without penetration or serious impact trauma to the wearer in the work room). They exceed both IDF and US Army high powered rifle standards. The problem is, the darn things are extremely expensive. So we got to thinking, what if we use a normal old Class-IV ceramic plate? After all, they're cheaper! So we took four of said Ceramic wonder-plates out, and two of the plates we're currently using, to the range (my boss had them in storage and wasn't sure what to do with them)along with an M-4 (with AP green-tips) and an AK one of the military officers who lives here was kind enough to bring over from the base for us. He wanted to watch. We decided to set up the plates at ten meters with and then, well, shoot them. First, the 7.62X39 AP results - the AK: 1) we shot the first ceramic plate single shot three times. On the third time it cracked. The fourth round penetrated and left a huge hole in it. 2) we shot the second ceramic plate single shot four times. On the fourth round it cracked. The fifth round ended with the same results as our fourth round on the previous plate: penetration, big hole. We flipped the AK to fully auto and unloaded. The plate essentially shattered and fell apart. 3) new clip: we shot the plate we normally use single shot until we ran out of bullets. It was seriously damaged and scored, but it remained in tact without penetration (It was on its last legs, though). I'm sure the wearer would have suffered some nasty blunt force trauma, but the plate did its job, and they should be wearing some padding underneath. Second, the 5.62 AP Greentip results - the M-4: 1) we shot the first ceramic plate single shot four times. The fifth shot shattered the vest. 2) we shot the second ceramic plate single shot three times. The fourth shot penetrated. The fifth shot shattered the vest. 3) we shot the plate we currently use with with the remaining 21 rounds. It was heavily scored and had a serious crack in it, but it held. Two more rounds, however, and it broke in half. Test result: don't revert to ceramic plates. Gamer test result: Ceramic Class-IV vests are burly, but ablative. Gun-bunny test result: Will someone let me destroy more $350 plates. Please. Pretty please... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates The highest body armor rating is IV or V? IIRC, the top rated ones are supposed to be able to stop .30-06/7.62 Nato AP, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates I read somewhere not long ago that Renaissance-era armorers "field tested" their products by firing a weapon into them. (Both pistol-proof and arquebus-proof armor was available, the latter being heavier and more expensive.) The resulting mar from the proofing shot was left in the otherwise highly decorated and polished armor, exactly to show that it had been "proven". An early example of "proof in advertising" (pun recognized but not intended). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates What I want to know is, what's the DEF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates I've a few questions- Size of plate - wouldn't it be better to have larger plates to disperse the energy? Or is the ease of replacement more important? What are the plates held with? Are they attached to anything to reduce the kinetic energy? When they shatter are we talking large chunks, or small slivers likely to cut into the wearer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates Interesting report, VDM! If you ever find out what those expensive plates are made of, let us know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates Gotta be Questionite, Impossibilium or something similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates Adamantium, or Handwavium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted February 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates The highest body armor rating is IV or V? IIRC' date=' the top rated ones are supposed to be able to stop .30-06/7.62 Nato AP, right?[/quote'] Class IV is the highest rating I've seen. All of the Class IV ballistic plates can defeat at least a few hots from the rounds you mentioned. The problem is, the plates are heavy and inflexible. There is a new flexible ballistic armor that can stop high power rifle rounds from Pinnacle Armor (MIL-STD SOV-1000 and SOV-2000 Level III) that they call "Dragonskin," but it would provide little blunt force trauma protection, which can also be lethal. Great, it stopped the bullet, but you may die from internal bleeding. You still need some kind of rigid protection, or significant padding underneath, which brings you back to the problem they want to over come - weight and mobility. It does have some advantages though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted February 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates Interesting report' date=' VDM! If you ever find out what those expensive plates are made of, let us know. [/quote'] I am chagrined. My English vocabulary has always been vast and capable of dealing with many specialized fields, but I have learned a lot of new technical terms in Hebrew since moving without picking up the English equivalents. I had to borrow a scientific Hebrew-English dictionary from a friend. The material is: Aramid Fiber Bonded AL98, Aluminum Oxide 98%. The plates are pretty heavy - about 5KG each (so its about 22 pounds of armor), and then you add in the weight of the vest material and the kevlar pieces we use. In other words, its not a wonder material and you can only wear so much of it, but it will keep you from being perforated. Edited to correct armor weights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted February 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates I've a few questions- Size of plate - wouldn't it be better to have larger plates to disperse the energy? Or is the ease of replacement more important? What are the plates held with? Are they attached to anything to reduce the kinetic energy? When they shatter are we talking large chunks, or small slivers likely to cut into the wearer? First we make our vests from cordora and insert the plates. They are held in place internally with straps and velcro. The critical parts that don't have coverage (the side straps, shoulders, etc), get Class III Kevlar. The plates themselves are pretty big (the next time I have some in the house I will try to remember to take a picture). The one for the back covers the whole back. The one for the front covers from mid-upper sternum to just above the belt, its got a "wave" shaped flare from top to bottom and a curve so that it will also protect the front-obliques of the abdomen. The size and shape of the plate is supposed to help disperse the energy. We don't add any padding to our vests, but I know they tell them to consider it. We live in a desert, they usually don't. That's our standard vest, but since we customize anything they want (from pouches to design), we have variations on the theme. We have one vest that I'm working on now that relies on Class-III Kevlar inserts with lighter ballistic plates for protection. As for the breakage: It broke into chunks for the most part, but there were small, sharp shards at the penetration point, and the places where subsequent bullets hit the chunks. That's more of a problem for the surgeons than anyone, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates Class IV is the highest rating I've seen. All of the Class IV ballistic plates can defeat at least a few hots from the rounds you mentioned. The problem is' date=' the plates are heavy and inflexible. There is a new flexible ballistic armor that can stop high power rifle rounds from Pinnacle Armor (MIL-STD SOV-1000 and SOV-2000 Level III) that they call "Dragonskin," but it would provide little blunt force trauma protection, which can also be lethal. Great, it stopped the bullet, but you may die from internal bleeding. You still need some kind of rigid protection, or significant padding underneath, which brings you back to the problem they want to over come - weight and mobility. It does have some advantages though.[/quote'] I'm not sure it would be that bad against blunt force trauma. It is basically a scale mail with overlapping plates. It should also have a layer of kevlar or some such inside it, so the combination should still spread the impact over a larger area. The multiple plates should increase the multiple impact resistance, as long as the impacts aren't on the same plate, of course. I have still not found much information on Ceramet or whatever it is called, Ceramic somehow fused to a titanium plate. Supposedly 1/2 inch can stop a .50 caliber???? I would think that something along the lines of a hard kevlar breastplate with the Dragonscales on the outside of it might be superb, but heavy. Or another possiblility would be thinner dragonscales over larger plates like a brigandine (?) Have you ever tested TWO lower rated vests? I have no capability, but have always wondered what a 3A or some such external vest would stop with a 2 or 2a or some such concealed vest under it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Freedom Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates You would think their would be a way to put something like a thin layer of ballistic gel inside the armor. The gel would act like water and flow the impact away from the single spot. But then the gel would add weight to the armor, but you would keep the flexibility. I was an MP RL and have worn class 1 thru 4 ... The higher the number the heavier, and less flexible it was. But then this was in the late 80's early 90's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inu Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates I'm not sure it would be that bad against blunt force trauma. It is basically a scale mail with overlapping plates. It should also have a layer of kevlar or some such inside it, so the combination should still spread the impact over a larger area. Very cool! Sounds like it should also have the advantage that if one plate cracks/breaks, the vest is largely still operable, yeah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates Adamantium' date=' or Handwavium.[/quote'] Unobtainium is my favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates I'm not sure it would be that bad against blunt force trauma. It is basically a scale mail with overlapping plates. It should also have a layer of kevlar or some such inside it, so the combination should still spread the impact over a larger area. The multiple plates should increase the multiple impact resistance, as long as the impacts aren't on the same plate, of course. I have still not found much information on Ceramet or whatever it is called, Ceramic somehow fused to a titanium plate. Supposedly 1/2 inch can stop a .50 caliber???? I would think that something along the lines of a hard kevlar breastplate with the Dragonscales on the outside of it might be superb, but heavy. Or another possiblility would be thinner dragonscales over larger plates like a brigandine (?) Have you ever tested TWO lower rated vests? I have no capability, but have always wondered what a 3A or some such external vest would stop with a 2 or 2a or some such concealed vest under it. What this does imply is that as soon as we get genetically enhanced soldiers strong enough to carry this stuff, we've got some scary-@ss combat monsters. (Hey... this is a gaming website... remember!) So from a DEF pov, Class IV sounds like 13rPD hardened, ablative, 15- activation (so even hit location spots might actually be on a strap or such) cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Real World Ballistics Test For Ceramic Plates Very cool! Sounds like it should also have the advantage that if one plate cracks/breaks, the vest is largely still operable, yeah? yeah, that is why they claim a higher multiple shot resistance. even if you break one scale, unless you hit it again, it doesn't weaken the whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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