Leaping Limitations!

[John T]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

My mind's eye sees this as something akin to a rocket-assisted leap for a ground vehicle; not a whole lot of vertical movement going on, there.

 

Worth -1? I'd have to GM it a few times before I'd know for sure; it'd probably end up at -1/2 for my own use, but who knows? As with any other Limitation in the game, it's all about how limiting it actually is.

[Rapier]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Well, I would look a bit askance at a -1.

 

However, I can see the logic. Leaping movement has two components, vertical and horizontal. If you eliminate one of them, Leaping loses "half" its usage. That is worth a -1.

 

Now, does that not mean that there are times when its not a limitation or times when its actually a benefit? Oh sure. I can't think of a single limitation that at some point couldn't become an "advantage" in the situation you want to use it in.

 

The meter stick is, as always, set as how much usage the limitation will limit.

[casualplayer]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Since gaining altitude is only at half the movement speed (a 12" superleap can only get you 6" of up) shouldn't that limitation be only -1/2, maybe -3/4? Anyway, every example of this SFX occuring in game that I can think of should probably be bought as Flight with 1 Recoverable Charge, No Turn Mode. Who thought up this goofy power example?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

On the forward movement only = "a straight horzontal line' date=' parallel to the ground" idea, I don't buy it. It's rare that a Limitation grants some kind of advantage to a Power, and rarer still when that advantage is of such significence that it completely alters the way to Power works. Leaping does not allow you go leap across a room with a low ceiling. It just doesn't, and [i']limiting[/i] it will in no way, never ever, allow Leaping to do something it couldn't already.

 

Forward does not equal horizontal movement. I'll even go so far as to say that the character can leap into the air and land at a higher elevation, so long as that location was a significant distance ahead of him. It's still forward motion, and as I said, forward does not equal horizontal.

To be fair, I believe it is completely up to the GM to enforce any kind of arc when Leaping is used. IIRC there is nothing in the official rules about how high a horizonal leap will take you. In many games, especially heroic ones, it is of course often a given that the GM will make some kind of common sense ruling on the matter, so things might well vary between games.

 

Certainly the official restrictions of Leaping: that you must begin and end on some kind of surface (unless you want to fall), that you cannot turn mid-leap, etc., should not be changed by a Limitation.

[schir1964]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

To be fair, I believe it is completely up to the GM to enforce any kind of arc when Leaping is used. IIRC there is nothing in the official rules about how high a horizonal leap will take you. In many games, especially heroic ones, it is of course often a given that the GM will make some kind of common sense ruling on the matter, so things might well vary between games.

 

Certainly the official restrictions of Leaping: that you must begin and end on some kind of surface (unless you want to fall), that you cannot turn mid-leap, etc., should not be changed by a Limitation.

I think this one may have been answered in the Rule FAQs.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Mike W]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Forward movement only -1

 

Hmmm....cool!

 

Can someone please explain to me why not having any vertical height component on your leaping is a limitation?

 

I mean, normally with my 50" of leaping I would be scuppered trying to leap down a corridor with a 3 metre ceiling: I'd be going up at least 50 metres (so I'd be limited in fact to a leap of 3"), but with this limitation: no problemo. And it halves the cost. Bargain.

 

OK I know that you might have some problem getting onto a roof outside (unless you lie down, in which case forward is up), so OK that is a bit of a limitation, but at least half the time heroes are inside, so it really does balance out and tip heavily in favour of it being an advantage overall.

 

Or am I crazed?

 

 

Well, if you take it literally, Forward only means you can't use it to go backward or side to side - which would make using it to Dive for Cover much harder. That would be worth something.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

I think this one may have been answered in the Rule FAQs.

Hmm. Could be. I just searched the new FAQ under the, "General Questions," "Characteristics," "Powers," and, "Combat and Adventuring," sections using the case-insensitive strings 'jump', 'leap', 'height', and 'high' and skimmed from there. I didn't find anything that seemed to be relavent, but I could have missed something.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

To be fair, I believe it is completely up to the GM to enforce any kind of arc when Leaping is used. IIRC there is nothing in the official rules about how high a horizonal leap will take you. In many games, especially heroic ones, it is of course often a given that the GM will make some kind of common sense ruling on the matter, so things might well vary between games.

 

Certainly the official restrictions of Leaping: that you must begin and end on some kind of surface (unless you want to fall), that you cannot turn mid-leap, etc., should not be changed by a Limitation.

 

All true, but as far as I'm concerned, it's gotta be mighty limited in function for it's base cost to be half that of Running or Flight. Requiring enough general open space to use it seems about right.

[schir1964]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Upon further research I also could not find any references for the Arc Of Leaping.

 

However, I've ruled for simplicity sake that the minimum height of a norma leap would 1/4 of the distance being leaped. The complementary rule is that maximum height of any leap is of course 1/2 of the distance being leaped.

 

So a 20" Leap requires a clearance of at least 5" inches.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Upon further research I also could not find any references for the Arc Of Leaping.

 

However, I've ruled for simplicity sake that the minimum height of a norma leap would 1/4 of the distance being leaped. The complementary rule is that maximum height of any leap is of course 1/2 of the distance being leaped.

 

So a 20" Leap requires a clearance of at least 5" inches.

Interesting. If you use equations for ballistic arcs (in a vacuum), use a small-angle approximation (sin a ~= tan a ~= a; questionable here, but the only approximation that is going to give a decent-looking answer), and maximize the starting velocity (common sense if you are trying to minimize the height of the trajectory), the ratio of the maximum height to the range comes to:

H/R ~= R/8R(max)

Where R(max) is the maximum range (at a 45-degree angle). The maximum height of the R(max) trajectory is one-quarter R(max) (the approximation is not very good at a 45-degree angle, but gets better as the angle decreases).

 

If we take the pessimistic end and make the minimum height of a jump equal to R/4R(max), it seems to be a very simple and usable relationship. If a character has 8" of Leaping but only jumps 4", the minimum peak of the jump is 1/2" (one-eighth the distance jumped). If a character with only 4" of Leaping makes the same jump, the minimum peak is 1" (one-quarter the distance jumped).

[schir1964]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

So, you liked that one?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

I don't know if I can see it as a -1, but I can see it being a problem in some cases, not the least of which is the inability to plow into flying targets, which at one point seemed to be a national pasttime in my games (we liked to smash downward on the descending arc of the leap and drive 'em into the ground). You also have to deal with obstacles that could otherwise be circumvented (no jumping over cars or people in the way). Combining that limitation with a cluttered battlefield can make for some frustration, to be sure.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

So' date=' you liked that one?[/quote']

Yeah. I saw your value was based upon a trajectory with a 45-degree angle (maximum range in a vacuum) and took it from there. I just like also making it depend on the character's total Leaping distance (alternately, the amount of Leaping for which the character spends End, so a character with more Leaping could choose to spend more End to make the jump lower).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

I don't know if I can see it as a -1' date=' but I can see it being a problem in some cases, not the least of which is the inability to plow into flying targets, which at one point seemed to be a national pasttime in my games (we liked to smash downward on the descending arc of the leap and drive 'em into the ground). You also have to deal with obstacles that could otherwise be circumvented (no jumping over cars or people in the way). Combining that limitation with a cluttered battlefield can make for some frustration, to be sure.[/quote']

True! Removing the height of a Leap would have definite drawbacks as well as benefits. It all depends on the situation.

[schir1964]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Yeah. I saw your value was based upon a trajectory with a 45-degree angle (maximum range in a vacuum) and took it from there. I just like also making it depend on the character's total Leaping distance (alternately' date=' the amount of Leaping for which the character spends End, so a character with more Leaping could choose to spend more End to make the jump lower).[/quote']

Nice!! I like that END option. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[John T]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Some additional thoughts on the extent to which this limitation could be used to advantage (based on my interpretation):

 

Keep in mind that there is NO provision for gaining altitude with this type of Leap. If the far side of the chasm you're trying to reach is even 1/2" higher than your launch point, THUD! If the open space you're attempting to cross is crowded with people, someone's going to get hurt.

 

The only condition under which this type of Leap seems to have an advantage over the standard kind is if A) there is a ceiling restricting a normal Leap, and you trajectory (if you can call it that) is free of major obstructions (things you couldn't brush aside with casual Str).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Some additional thoughts on the extent to which this limitation could be used to advantage (based on my interpretation):

 

Keep in mind that there is NO provision for gaining altitude with this type of Leap. If the far side of the chasm you're trying to reach is even 1/2" higher than your launch point, THUD! If the open space you're attempting to cross is crowded with people, someone's going to get hurt.

 

The only condition under which this type of Leap seems to have an advantage over the standard kind is if A) there is a ceiling restricting a normal Leap, and you trajectory (if you can call it that) is free of major obstructions (things you couldn't brush aside with casual Str).

 

I still disagree that "forward only" equals "straight line horizontal" movement. I think it means a normal leap that you can only make in one direction: forward. No leaping straight up, backwards or to the sides.

 

I'm afraid to ask for verification from Steve though. I afraid he'll say it's up to the GM and nothing else.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Okay, I guess I had nothing to fear:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42583

[Zed-F]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Steve's answer seems like a rather silly interpretation to me. How is not being able to leap sideways or backwards limiting when it's a 0 phase action to change your facing? You lose nothing mechanically speaking by not being able to jump sideways or backwards, if you can still gain altitude with a forward leap.

 

I think I like my interpretation better.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Steve's answer seems like a rather silly interpretation to me. How is not being able to leap sideways or backwards limiting when it's a 0 phase action to change your facing? You lose nothing mechanically speaking by not being able to jump sideways or backwards, if you can still gain altitude with a forward leap.

 

I think I like my interpretation better.

Not entirely true.

 

If you want to retreat from a battle you run the risk of losing sight of one or more the combatants and suffering the 1/2 DCV vs. suprise/from behind attacks during your leap.

 

Also, the altitude gained from a non-balistic or forward leap is not going be very much. Maybe 1" per 5" forward at best.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Steve's answer seems like a rather silly interpretation to me. How is not being able to leap sideways or backwards limiting when it's a 0 phase action to change your facing? You lose nothing mechanically speaking by not being able to jump sideways or backwards, if you can still gain altitude with a forward leap.

 

I think I like my interpretation better.

 

As Zed-F says, given that a change of facing takes no time and you can still get up to high places, so long as you stand far enough back, I think that the answer does not explain the (–1) limitation value: one or the other has to be wrong.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

As Zed-F says' date=' given that a change of facing takes no time and you can still get up to high places, so long as you stand far enough back, I think that the answer does not explain the (–1) limitation value: one or the other has to be wrong.[/quote']

 

Also, the rule on changing faces assumes that you have not moved. The full amount of Leaping assumes that you have room for a running start.

 

So say you had a character standing on the outside ledge of a building with his Jump-Jet Backpack that normally gives him +20" Leaping with this Limitation. He would only get to apply the bonus for a standing leap (1/2 or 1/4, i don't have the book handy) and he would have little to no altitude control. If he tried to leap into a window of another building it would be at a severe penalty compared to leaping bought without the lim.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Not entirely true.

 

If you want to retreat from a battle you run the risk of losing sight of one or more the combatants and suffering the 1/2 DCV vs. suprise/from behind attacks during your leap.

True. Also, if you happen to be using Running with a Turn Mode, you might be rather restricted if already moving. Not very common, but there. Use of Acrobatics tied with a leap could also be hampered a bit. If your opponent(s) know you leap around a lot they might just Delay their attacks until you turn your back....

 

Also, the altitude gained from a non-balistic or forward leap is not going be very much. Maybe 1" per 5" forward at best.

Yeah. I would restrict the initial angle of your leap to no greater than 45-degrees above horizontal. As stated earlier that means the maximum height of the jump will be one-quarter the horizontal travel.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Also' date=' the rule on changing faces assumes that you have not moved. The full amount of Leaping assumes that you have room for a running start.[/quote']

Hmm. Actually, that brings something to mind. Generally you can only activate/deactivate any particular Power once per Phase, even though you can normally take Zero-Phase Actions before an initial Half Phase and before a final Half Phase. I could see restricting a character (at least if the Limited Leaping is used) to only changing facing before or after the Leap, so you may not be able to, for example, change facing, jump, change facing, and attack.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Leaping Limitations!

 

Hmm. Actually' date=' that brings something to mind. Generally you can only activate/deactivate any particular Power once per Phase, even though you can normally take Zero-Phase Actions before an initial Half Phase and before a final Half Phase. I could see restricting a character (at least if the Limited Leaping is used) to only changing facing before [i']or[/i] after the Leap, so you may not be able to, for example, change facing, jump, change facing, and attack.

 

 

All of this quite a bit of work and tangled logic in order to justify a -1 limitation.

 

 

All this is leaving me with that "bad-Hero" taste in my mouth. While logic puzzles can be fun, I hate it when the game begins to require complex, nuanced and highly variable reasoning from effect just to answer "Can I jump to that ledge or not?"