Speedster Tactics

[Cardinal]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

Zl'f has always danced the line between MA and speedster' date=' but the way I play her puts her solidly on the MA side of the divide. I've carefully avoided buying her Passing Strike or other martial maneuvers that would allow her to do damage while moving past an opponent.[/quote']

 

Looking at her character sheet Zl'f seemd to be very MA oriented. I've gone the other way... passing strike and passing throw are my bread and butter. I came to appreciate the "streak in from a safe spot and continue to a new safe spot" when a GM used that tactic to work over my old team.

[Cardinal]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

Keep an eye out for Hummingbird too' date=' though. She's got the lethal combo of Mental powers and Shrinking. When she's that small, your comparative size totally counteracts your speedy DCV, plus she'll be pretty hard to hit.. and probably taking over your mind.[/quote']

 

Shrinking and mental powers are a nasty combination. Hummingbird managed to take out from ambush another hero that was coming in to help. I am just luck she didn't make my character run around in a French Maid outfit.

[Kirby]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

Shrinking and mental powers are a nasty combination. Hummingbird managed to take out from ambush another hero that was coming in to help. I am just luck she didn't make my character run around in a French Maid outfit.

There's always next time.

[Adventus]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

having read all of this i have this to say:

 

Quit letting your opponent choose the battleground.

 

You choose the battle ground.

 

You are a speedster. Use it have a running battle. Spread them out. hit them from different directions. Be unpredictable. Don't let them group up on you. If they start to, spend a couple of phases getting away from them.. and cause them to spread out again.

 

And above all: KEEP MOVING!!!!

[Kirby]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

having read all of this i have this to say:

 

Quit letting your opponent choose the battleground.

Um, are you sure you read all of it? This was his first battle. He didn't have a choice.

 

As the GM for the game he's referencing, I would like to point out two (important) things Cardinal left out. First, GRAB was stealing a yacht; the entire battle took place on the yacht. Second, there was a second PC involved. Granted, this was a flying brick who kept trying move-throughs and missed (though when he decided to land and punch, he hit). So the fight was really 3 against 2, since Hummingbird's orders were to take out Hydro or any member of the Champions or whenever a third hero showed up. Since the third hero that showed up happened to be a member of the Champions, she went after that one (using up 2-3 phases of attacks).

 

You choose the battle ground.

I do find this funny. Choosing the ground is more when you know what's going to happen as opposed to reacting to something that's already happening. I can just see the heroes of the city making an announcement:

No one may commit a crime unless it is within these boundries. Heh.

 

Spread them out.

If they were something akin to Eurostar or the Crowns or any 'combat' NPCs, I'd agree with this; however, as GRAB is composed of thieves -and in this case, trying to steal a yacht- this wouldn't work. If it were a group seeking to beat up or kill the PCs, then yes, if it's some group that's trying to get away, then no.

[TheTemplar]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

First, GRAB was stealing a yacht;

 

Classic GRAB.

 

I can just see how this conversation went down:

 

Bluejay: "What about some diamonds! Lets steal some diamonds. They're worth loads, and they're easy to hide!"

 

Black Diamond: "Blah... too cliche. We need to make a statement! Next thing you know you'll be suggesting a bank robbery."

 

Hummingbird, who was about to energetically suggest a bank robbery, looks down at her feet sadly.

 

Meanwhile, Cheshire Cat who has been staring out the window sees the sun gleam off the brand new shiny yacht docked at the harbor and lets out a low whistle. "Whew... ladies. I think I have... a... plan..."

[Kirby]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

First' date=' GRAB was stealing a yacht;[/b']

 

Classic GRAB.

 

I can just see how this conversation went down:

 

Bluejay: "What about some diamonds! Lets steal some diamonds. They're worth loads, and they're easy to hide!"

 

Black Diamond: "Blah... too cliche. We need to make a statement! Next thing you know you'll be suggesting a bank robbery."

 

Hummingbird, who was about to energetically suggest a bank robbery, looks down at her feet sadly.

 

Meanwhile, Cheshire Cat who has been staring out the window sees the sun gleam off the brand new shiny yacht docked at the harbor and lets out a low whistle. "Whew... ladies. I think I have... a... plan..."

lol! Very good dialogue, repped! In fact, even though I didn't include their motivation on why the yacht, this is now it.

 

EDIT: As an aside, they did want to steal something on the water since Millennium City has (had) only one water-themed hero (anyone else would be seen flying). Little did they know that both PCs (Gulfstream and Riptide) were water-themed as well.

[Terrapin]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

A good general tactic is the "Defense In, Offense Out" sequence.

 

On a given Phase, use the Flying Dodge Maneuver to accelerate to full Running speed and get in among the enemy (not adjacent to anyone, but within a couple of hexes). Any CSLs should be put into DCV. You are as hard to hit as you can make yourself, and your position amidst the enemy will hopefully dissuade them from popping off Explosive or AE attacks.

 

On your next Phase, conduct a Charge, Passing Throw or Move-By/Move-Through with CSLs switched to OCV and/or damage increase, and end your movement as far away as possible and ideally around the corner out of sight somewhere. As Haerandir said, your sucks-to-be-me time extends from the moment you make your attack to the end of the attacking Segment, so it helps to move yourself clear as expeditiously as possible; you never want to finish your attack run a couple of hexes away from the enemy.

 

Even though your high DEX will help you win interrupt-action roll-offs, if enough bad guys hold their actions, one of them will eventually hit you when your DCV is down. You can, however, make this a tactical gambit; on the way in (high DCV), try to reach a hex from which you are threatening a number of potential enemy targets. If the entire opposition is holding half actions trying not to get caught off guard by the speedster, they yield initiative to your teammates, who will feel less pressure and will have more freedom to act.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

having read all of this i have this to say:

 

Quit letting your opponent choose the battleground.

 

You choose the battle ground.

 

You don't always get to choose the battleground. In general, the villains act and the heroes react. If the Speedster won't come after villains in tight quarters, the villains (or at least the smart villains) will commit robberies in tight quarters.

[Furry Fox]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

Having played a Speedster character (Nimbus) for a better part of the last two years I would agree with virtually all of Haerandin's statements. The Speedster Archetype while powerful is also brittle and can be easily countered. While Speed tricks are great kicking it back Old School with Move-bys and Move-Throughs can be devastasting as well.

 

To Sum up

 

1. Exploit your Speed and Mobility to take out the most dangerous opponent quickly.

 

2. Be sneaky and use hit and run tactics. Move-By your opponent and then duck under cover to strike again with the element of surprise.

 

3. Your higher speed allows you to be more aggressive when needed and provides a higher overall flexibility than any other character archetype.

 

 

I find that certain powers are most effective with this character set.

 

Those include Invisibility, Clinging and even Stretching. I find a few inches of Stretching to be highly effective with any HTH combatant but especially effective with mobility based hand-to-hand fighters. It is also nice to have an attack option that uses little or no End as Speedsters tend to burn End like no other character does. Either buy down the End on a couple of the Speed Tricks or provide a gadget that can be used when your character is out of juice.

[levi]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

I like the idea of Speedster as support character (especially if you're in a group of heavy hitters like Bricks and EPs). Hold some Phases everyone else moves on. If you have an 8 SPD (2,3,5,6,8,9,11,12) and all the other characters have a 5 SPD (3,5,8,10,12) then you hold on 3,5,8 & 12 (only half your phases) and use you speed in a supporting role to Missile Deflect adjacent ranged attacks, Disarm Foci, Intercept/Interrupt an Enemy and even to catch a teammate before suffering some damaging knockback. These things can frustrate many villains and get them to focus on you with your high DCV so that your teammates can Recover or dogpile on the villain. Just another way to play Speedsters, as the combat support character instead of main tank.

[Egyptoid]

. . . . USPD speedster power . . . .

 

I'll Take Those! Variant:

 

Teleportation 8", Usable As Attack (+1), Area Of Effect (12" Radius; +1 1/2),

Selective Target (+1/4) (60 Active Points); Only To Disarm/Grab Objects (-1)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When this power is used, does it:

 

1. only affect OAFs ?
   
2. require an attack roll versus each guy ?
   
3. STR vs STR roll ?
   
4. does that attack go against their basic DCV or is it a called shot Versus Object in Hand ?
   
5. matter if one or more of the targets is a martial artist ?
   

 

need some help nerfing a grody speedster, thanks. or else learn how to GM better.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

1) It should not work on Inaccessible Foci. People are paying those few extra points to not be disarmed. There may be some situations where SFX would warrant it though. For example, Batman’s utility belt has been ripped off him a number of times by stronger or faster opponents. If it’s inaccessible due to a strap or buckle, you might allow the character take it (or try to), but that sets a precedent that you may not want to deal with.

 

2) It's a selective AoE, so yes he has to make a separate attack roll against each target he wishes to disarm. He must roll against their normal DCV.

 

3) STR is not a factor with this build. It is automatically successful if it hits. However, since it is UAA the player and GM MUST define reasonable common way to counter it. Recommendations run the gamut of: not vs targets with more then X STR, not vs Speedsters, not vs teleporters. If you want STR to be a factor, it might be better to not let him use the Tport variant and make him use TK instead. This is a much more expensive version however and means that even mooks might have a chance of retaining their weapons. Here, check out this thread for some recent discussion on it.

 

4) I think you would be in your rights to apply any of the penalties associated with the Disarm or Grab rules, so long as you are consistent and the player knows about it up front.

 

5) Only if you and the player define it as not working against martial artists, which I think would usually be pretty lame. I mean, the Flash should be able to hit Bruce Lee a hundred times with his own nunchucks before Bruce can even blink. The Flash may have problems with someone along the lines of Val Armorr, Neo or Goku, but they are all SUPER Martial Artists. In the end, it comes down to how you define the term I suppose. Is an agent with 10 pts of Martial Arts maneuvers defined as a “martial artist�

[Half Baked]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

Looking at her character sheet Zl'f seemd to be very MA oriented. I've gone the other way... passing strike and passing throw are my bread and butter. I came to appreciate the "streak in from a safe spot and continue to a new safe spot" when a GM used that tactic to work over my old team.

 

Do I know that GM

 

I would go against some of the prevailing wisdom, or rather the interpretation of it. Setting the adjenda is important as a speedster, but you do that best by holding your actions IMO. It's counter intuitive in some ways, but works. Most important is staying conscious and a speedster who has already acted in a segment can be a sitting duck to attacks that don't care about DCV. You can then abort to deal with any attack you consider dangerous. Don't forget that with 35 DEX you have a good chance of winning any rolls to act first in effective DEX is the same. That is a very powerful weapon as knockback or a throw will probably invalidate their action.

 

Also remember that by holding an action until late in a segment you can have two actions one after another (eg DEX 5 in segment 2 and DEX 35 in segment 3)

 

Personally I think that speedsters are potentially one of the best team players in the game. With Passing Throw or Grab By they can set up their slower moving teammates with half-DCV opponents they can pummel into unconsciousness with a haymaker. They have high SPD so they can do so for several teammates at a time. That makes everybody your friend even if you can act when they can't

[TheTemplar]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

3) STR is not a factor with this build. It is automatically successful if it hits. However, since it is UAA the player and GM MUST define reasonable common way to counter it. Recommendations run the gamut of: not vs targets with more then X STR, not vs Speedsters, not vs teleporters. If you want STR to be a factor, it might be better to not let him use the Tport variant and make him use TK instead. This is a much more expensive version however and means that even mooks might have a chance of retaining their weapons. Here, check out this thread for some recent discussion on it.

 

I'd agree here, Egyptoid. I have the exact same power from USPD on my speedster, but I bought it as the Telekenesis option. To me, it suited the SFX better (assuming the SFX are that Speedster PC runs around a X" radius, removing all the OAF weapons from the targets.) IF that's how the power is described in non-game terms, then it seemed more reasonable to me that I would have had a more difficult time taking a weapon away from a target stronger than me than a 10 STR agent, so I went the TK route to include the STR Vs. STR contest on each target. This might be a good way to reduce the effectiveness of the power build but still be able to explain it to the player in a rational way without them necessarily thinking that you're just trying to nerf'em.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

thanks for the input.

 

what happens is, if a squad of agents shows up, soonthey are de-gunned and then on their next phase they walk off the battlefield, embarrassed.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

Then I think the agents could very quickly learn the vaule of lanyards and wareable gear like OIF power gauntlets

[Lucius]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

What's a penguin?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that context rules out the most obvious answer: Antarctic waterfowl.

[TheTemplar]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

With the TK option, the STR you'll have available will probably be pretty low. By the time you slap AoE Radius (presumably Selective, unless the Speedster is going too fast to discern friendly targets from hostile targets - including himself) you're looking at a pretty hefty AP cost per pt of STR. I've been GM'ing for a few months now, so it's been a while since I've seen the character sheet, but IIRC, the highest I could get the TK STR up to and still fit it in my 60 AP Speed Stunts MP was 16 STR. So, I could usually disarm 2/3rds of the standard agents in a 4" radius. The other 1/3rd I either missed or they rolled boxcars and beat my STR.

[Haerandir]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

What's a penguin?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that context rules out the most obvious answer: Antarctic waterfowl.

 

No, that's exactly what it was. An intelligent, telepathic, talking, semi-anthropomorphic Antarctic waterfowl. Modeled on the evil penguin from Wallace & Grommit, IIRC. He was meant to be a sort of comedic change-of-pace villain after all the super-mercenaries and necromancers we'd been fighting.

[bwdemon]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

Here's an often-overlooked solution to ground-bound speedsters: fly! If you can fly and they can't, get a little height and start dropping bombs/blasts/rocks/rays/whatever on their high-DCV heads. It feels dirty, but so does getting pummeled without getting to answer in return. It'll also take a long time to bring them down, but it's better than the alternative.

 

However, beware the speedster who may decide to run up a multiple-story building, then off its roof, in order to get at a flying aggressor. On the one hand, it gives him a shot at hitting you. On the other hand, it can be a long way down, hit or miss, for the speedster in question.

 

Of course, if you're dealing with a flying speedster, then this just isn't going to work.

 

Another option is to appeal to lesser-used powers (works on non-speedsters, too). The looser point restrictions on 5th edition characters led to lots of secondary and tertiary powers for characters. This is a good thing. However, they rarely get used in proportion to their cost (multipowers excepted). So if you can give them a chance to use one of these rarely-used powers, most players will jump on it. If they have a disarm power, then walk into battle with a large flashy fake gun. They'll try to disarm instead of something useful and usually end up in a position where it'll be easier to take them down in your phase.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

My main speedster has several anti flyer tactics. The first is he will simply start throwing things (oftentimes ball bearings) at hypersonic speeeds.

 

However, a portion of his powers comes from his control of friction, inertia and kinetic/potential energy. He hasn't actully figured out how to fly or do telekinesis yet. But he has figured out how to Drain/Dispel other peoples momentum, which tends to stall most forms of Flight, Swiming, Leaping, Swinging and Running. All he needs to do is touch you once...

[TheTemplar]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

I know it was mentioned somewhere that Speedsters make great support members of a team. We discovered this to be very true in The Defenders. rburroughs (who plays Nighthawk) and I, being the only 2 ground bound members of the team at the time created a few anti-flyer tactics that worked pretty well for us.

 

1. Hookline and Sinker Nighthawk starts by using his Swingline to hook the aerial target. The Tornado! would then run up the line and do a move-through/ move-by on the target. This worked for relatively low flying targets (5-8" range.) Anything higher than that resulted in T! taking too much damage from falling after the hit.

Powers Needed: A swingline/ grappling hook type gadget (a focus w/ streching or some other ranged grabbing ability - or, just built for Swinging & useable this way if the GM allows it based on SFX) & a Speedster w/ Flight (only on surfaces) or sufficient Clinging linked to Running if the GM would allow you to run up a rather thin cable w/ that.

 

OR

 

2. Kitehawk Nighthawk uses his grappling hook to latch onto The Tornado!, who begins running at full speed. Using the Gliding ability in his cape to achieve lift at that high velocity, Nighthawk goes into the air and can attack targets as The Tornado! runs past them.

Powers needed: A speedster w/ high movement "'s (but then, what speedster ISN'T going to have high movement "s?) A grappling device as above, and a cape or some way to create a kite like effect. Our GM allowed us to use Night's Gliding cape to create this combo.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

I love when players develop and name their new maneuvers/plays

 

repped!

[Half Baked]

Re: Speedster Tactics

 

2. Kitehawk Nighthawk uses his grappling hook to latch onto The Tornado!, who begins running at full speed. Using the Gliding ability in his cape to achieve lift at that high velocity, Nighthawk goes into the air and can attack targets as The Tornado! runs past them.

Powers needed: A speedster w/ high movement "'s (but then, what speedster ISN'T going to have high movement "s?) A grappling device as above, and a cape or some way to create a kite like effect. Our GM allowed us to use Night's Gliding cape to create this combo.

 

Sweet move, but you might want to rename Nighthawk to NightKITE