Making things too complicated

[Robyn]

This thread is to ask if anyone else out there has ever tried to build something, done it in an incredibly overcomplicated way, and then realized later that there was a much simpler way to achieve it. If you have, and think it's an understandable mistake, please share the details so I (and others) may be able to avoid such easy-to-commit mistakes in the future.

 

For example; when I still hadn't seen an actual copy of the rolebook, and was just working off of a dimly growing understanding of how the system was structured, I wanted to design a power that would let my character fire a lump of solid (if gel-like) knockout chemical at an opponent, gently enough that they might not feel it (and wouldn't die from the attack), but which would then be absorbed through the skin and dissolve afterward, leaving no traces behind. This would be for infiltration missions and non-lethal takedowns. But, all I had to work with was his existing ranged attack, which was an RKA that, by its nature, usually did more Stun than Body; so, I put the Limitation "Does No Body" on it, and then realized that it still wouldn't be guaranteed of getting through their PD to affect them. At first I experimented with making the attack obscenely powerful, but then I realized that, since after running out of Stun you take Body, the attack would still be unbalanced (either too weak or too powerful for everyone I wanted to use it against - not "unbalanced" in the sense of game mechanics). I reset it to a handful of d6's (starting to wonder how badly the Stun Multiplier could throw things off), and added No Normal Defense.

 

At this point I had a NND RKA (Does No Body), and my GM (not McCoy, then) said "No.", and quite rightly considering what I was doing. It just wasn't what I was trying to do, and it hadn't occurred to me that the HERO system might be simple enough to allow for it without, well, using the exact powers and advantages and limitations I had already seen to build an equivalent.

 

[The incredibly simple way of doing this? 1d6 Stun Drain, Ranged attack. Maybe with the Recovery moved a few rows down on the Time chart, to ensure the guards wouldn't wake up for a few hours. Doh.]

[prestidigitator]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

Rather than giving a specific example, I'll just state that I've done this more times than I can count. First pass, especially when converting things from another system, I usually obsess about getting as many of the specific details of a construct to match. Afterwards, or in the middle, I usually step back and say, "Okay. Now if I ignore some details, how can I capture the essence of this thing in a simple manner?" Then I MAY go back and see if I can get some of the details to fit into the build. I feel it is all a part of the process, and a good part of it.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

A lesson I learned early on was to put the onus of an effect where it is simplest. I can demonstrate what I mean by an example.

 

Clerics turn undead.

 

You could buy a complicated PRE build (only vs. undead and while serving the gods' purpose) for every single cleric out there. This would lead to oddities like little old parish priests who need to be built on an unrealistic number of points just to have an effect that 99% of them will never use. While your at it, make sure that every crucifix (or what have you) is built with that extra PRE, Usable by Others, as well. Then buy a force wall for all of your holy places, only vs. Undead, total invisible, Constant, Uncontrolled.

 

Or you could simply build your undead with Phys Lim: Aversion to holy symbols and people, and a Suscptability to holy SFX. It's their Limitation, not a priest's Power.

 

Don't build your world to fit a small effect. Buy the effect in the simplest place.

 

Keith "Keep it Simple" Curtis

[Dust Raven]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

Keith has stated one of my headaches when trying to run a fantasy game awhile back, with about the same solution (I identified a cleric/priest with two Perks, one for membership in his chuch and one for his status of being a cleric of good standing with his deity, with the undead's Vulnerability dependant upon the latter).

 

I know I've come up with numerous cantankerous builds in my early days with Hero. One I remember was a character's ability to ressurect himself after he dies (like immortals in Highlander, but an entirely different concept; this one was for vampires). I ended up with a complicated Regeneration plus a Triggered BODY Aid with Linked Life Support to ensure the body "survived" long enough in a hostile enviornment to reanimate. I eventually just stuck with the character's standard Regen plus extra BODY with the Limitation "Only To Stave Off Death". This was before 5th edition with the Ressurection/Regen Healing build, which makes it even easier.

 

One other was for a character who could summon incorporial spirits to aid him in combat by attacking and restraining opponents. I had a complicated Summon build, at one point built them as impossibly expensive Followers but ended up just buying him TK and being done with it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

Keith hit on a point of contention I sometimes get...

 

People tend to get wrapped up in making the Character perform a function that really is a Feature of the World.

 

If, to continue his example, all Undead can be driven off by a Holy Person brandishing a Holy Symbol it's not a Power the Priest has, it's a Feature of the Undead in that World.

 

Or even a combination...

 

As for me ... I always manage to either overcomplicate or over simplify on the first attempt.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

Hmm. I like the ability for a priest's command over undead to be able to advance, though. Perhaps a combination of the two. Give the undead a Susceptibility and/or a Vulnerability to Presence Attacks by holy sources. Give priests a Perk to activate those Disadvantages. But also allow priests to increase their Presence with a Limitation if they want to (so they don't have to buy up their full Presence).

 

Holy symbols or whatever should be a situational bonus to the Presence Attack (no need for a power construct on that; Presence Attacks are meant for a high degree of situational variation) and might at the GM's option grant a non-priest the benefits of the Perk (or a lesser form; perhaps half effect) temporarily. In some cases holy items/places can just be considered a part of the Susceptibility or a source of, "constant Presence Attacks."

 

I like the integration of those two approaches. Still quite simple, but allows a great potential for variation....

 

EDIT: Err...sorry for getting side tracked there. It's one of those fantasy elements I often flip flop on a bit myself.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

Hmm. I like the ability for a priest's command over undead to be able to advance' date=' though. Perhaps a combination of the two. Give the undead a Susceptibility and/or a Vulnerability to Presence Attacks by holy sources. Give priests a Perk to activate those Disadvantages. But [i']also[/i] allow priests to increase their Presence with a Limitation if they want to (so they don't have to buy up their full Presence).

Clerics who are "good" or "better than average" at it can simply by Limited PRE like any other character could, and the mechanic for it remains unchanged. To build up to that "my faith destroys you" level, put Does BODY on the character's PRE.

 

Holy items would definately count for a situational modifier, something along the lines of "appropriate circumstances."

 

EDIT: Err...sorry for getting side tracked there. It's one of those fantasy elements I often flip flop on a bit myself.

 

Um... Me too. Well, not really, I just like discussing it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

To build up to that "my faith destroys you" level' date=' put Does BODY on the character's PRE..[/quote']

 

Is that even legal?

 

I've actually been leaning more to the idea of making 'Turn Undead' a Disad on the dead (so some 'advanced' deadies could buy it off), but letting clerical types buy a RKA AE power for undead-blasting. Anybody can hold up a holy symbol to ward off a vampire, but clerics can blow the things away.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

Or you could simply build your undead with Phys Lim: Aversion to holy symbols and people, and a Suscptability to holy SFX. It's their Limitation, not a priest's Power.

 

Don't build your world to fit a small effect. Buy the effect in the simplest place.

 

Keith "Keep it Simple" Curtis

 

Yeah one of those "Is it a an advantage on the toaster or a limitation on the bread" kind of things.

 

I gave undead in my FH game a susptability to Clerics PRE attack that would do body, and how much body was done was dependentant on how high the PRE attack was. Really weak undead also had a Vuln to PRE attacks from holy men, and the "kick butt blow up the undead clerics" bought extra dice on the PRE attack.

 

And on the topic - yeah I find myself doing complicated builds, that are fun to make (I like to tinker) then pulling back, looking at it a day or two later and think to my self "What was I on when I came up with that" and build a simple elegant solution.

 

Most of the time.

[Lucius]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

One I fell into recently was giving a character Shape Shift, for something that could be subsumed into the special effects of activating different powers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary diets on cod.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

Is that even legal?

Yes. At least, there's an example Power of putting Does KB on PRE, so I figure Does BODY is just as legal. You'd have to buy it as a Naked Advantage, probably with NND and with the Limitation: Only Versus Undead.

 

I've actually been leaning more to the idea of making 'Turn Undead' a Disad on the dead (so some 'advanced' deadies could buy it off), but letting clerical types buy a RKA AE power for undead-blasting. Anybody can hold up a holy symbol to ward off a vampire, but clerics can blow the things away.

Absolutely agree. I was just making a suggestion on how to handle clerics that can destroy the undead with their unwavering faith.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

Turning Undead? Turn to an expert!

 

I get to say one of my favoritest things evar: You're ALL correct. Any of those could be Street Legal. But this is HERO. Silly Rabbi. Kicks are for Trids.

 

1. You can in fact build all undead with the psych/phys lim "Susceptible to Holy Symbols/Places." You might find it easier to model this way: "Suspectible to Powerful Manifestations of Faith." Which you describe as either someone with the True Faith Perk, or a Priest who is Serving His God's Purpose. This gets rid of random guy with a cross, and invites the Priest to invest in...

 

2. Deadly Blow, Turn Undead, OWIGS, OIF Holy Symbol. This removes the PRE model and creates a Killing/Stun model. PLUS Presence Attack, a Holy Symbol is seen as a 'very violent action' on the Undead's part.

 

3. Or, if you really want to model it nearly exactly, you do it in two parts:

 

3a. Turn Undead (Presence Attack). Simple. TRIGGER: If the Undead take double their PRE in PRE Attack Damage, make a Holy Cleansing/Infernal Control roll.

 

3b. Make your Killing Attack/Second PRE roll to either explode/take control of the Undead (depending on if you're good or evil). If you want to keep with the theme, instead of Mind Control (which is cheap) you can purchase it as a Major Transform (Mindless Undead into Loyal Undead). This attack is All or Nothing.

 

Now you've got Undead who are susceptible, and a clean mechanic that lets you make them 'splode once they've been Turned. Then you can slap on all the usual "turn smallest one first" etc. if you want to stay with the original d20 canon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

my recent one was I kept trying to figute a good way of doing something with Duplication... turns out all I needed was TK and Clairsentience.

 

...sometimes you just got to sits and thinks a bit.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

Clerics turn undead.

 

You could buy a complicated PRE build (only vs. undead and while serving the gods' purpose) for every single cleric out there. This would lead to oddities like little old parish priests who need to be built on an unrealistic number of points just to have an effect that 99% of them will never use. While your at it, make sure that every crucifix (or what have you) is built with that extra PRE, Usable by Others, as well. Then buy a force wall for all of your holy places, only vs. Undead, total invisible, Constant, Uncontrolled.

 

Or you could simply build your undead with Phys Lim: Aversion to holy symbols and people, and a Suscptability to holy SFX. It's their Limitation, not a priest's Power.

 

 

While that is a simple build, its not very exciting for the players.

 

In my experience, players feel much more effective if they get to roll dice for an effect. Thus, if a player with a cleric wants to turn undead, I'm going to come up with an effect that allows him to roll dice for it.

 

Of course, in my fantasy games, anyone with the Perk: Annointed Preist can simply use a standard PRE Attack to affect any creature classed as Undead and in some cases exorcise Demons. It costs them nothing. Of course, a PC can always purchase extra PRE dice to make their Turn Undead ability uber strong. And some weaker Undead (such as Skeletons and Zombies) have a Vulnerability to Turning Attacks, and some of the more powerful Undead creatures (Master Vampires, Liches and Death Knights etc) have Damage Reduction vs Turning Attacks.

 

Depending on what you want to do and how much detail you want, simple is not always best...

[Robyn]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

In my experience' date=' players feel much more effective if they get to roll dice for an effect. Thus, if a player with a cleric wants to turn undead, I'm going to come up with an effect that allows him to roll dice for it.[/quote']

 

Once you get to the point of a player rolling dice for it, doesn't that become a mechanic?

 

Or is it that you already have several mechanics that could do the job, and you're looking for the SFX to describe it?

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

While that is a simple build, its not very exciting for the players.

 

In my experience, players feel much more effective if they get to roll dice for an effect. Thus, if a player with a cleric wants to turn undead, I'm going to come up with an effect that allows him to roll dice for it.

 

Of course, in my fantasy games, anyone with the Perk: Annointed Preist can simply use a standard PRE Attack to affect any creature classed as Undead and in some cases exorcise Demons. It costs them nothing. Of course, a PC can always purchase extra PRE dice to make their Turn Undead ability uber strong. And some weaker Undead (such as Skeletons and Zombies) have a Vulnerability to Turning Attacks, and some of the more powerful Undead creatures (Master Vampires, Liches and Death Knights etc) have Damage Reduction vs Turning Attacks.

 

Depending on what you want to do and how much detail you want, simple is not always best...

 

YMMV, of course.

You can still put the onus on the undead and have players get to roll the effect. Example:

 

VULN: 2x effect from clerical presence attacks. (player gets to roll)

PSYCH: Aversion to holy symbols (good for a 2 die bonus on a PRE attack)

PHYS: Takes body from PRE+20 attacks

 

With the above Lims, an undead might just possibly be turned by Joe Shmo and his cross. (PRE 10, +2 dice = 4 dice)

But if Mike the Cleric (2pt Perk) makes the same attack, with the same PRE, that 2 dice become 8 dice. Add in a die for an appropriate soliloquy (a holy prayer), and maybe some extra PRE because he's a cleric, and there's a good possibility Vlad will be feeling the righteous power of the gods.

 

Keith "Season to taste" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

Here's another example from my Savage Earth game. I wanted Animates (characters who are living animated mannequins like the Tin Woodman or the Scarecrow) to take less damage from attacks that would logically do less damage to them. The Scarecrow, for instance, should be able to be shot by any number of arrows with no detrimental effect whatever.

I considered some sort of specialized damage reduction, but it was getting too expensive. They already had to pay for Takes No Stun and Full Life Support. They also had numerous restrictions on maximum defenses.

The answer came to me in a flash, using an existing mechanic. The Real Weapon limitation on weapons is one of the things that keeps you from being able to knock down castles with a dagger. In short, if the DEF of an object is greater than the DCs of a weapon, it has no effect. If they exceed the DEF by 1, the attack does 1 BOD if anything gets through. Beyond that, any damage is done normally. This is canon as regards inanimate objects.

 

I decided to treat the material of construction for animates as being something the limitation Real Weapon would need to work against. Naturally, if I applied this across the board, animates might be a bit too powerful, so I refined it by dividing the types of damage into piercing, slashing, etc. (also an option from Fantasy Hero) and deciding that each animate character could declare one type of damage to be immune to, due to the Real Weapon limitation.

 

Neatly solved. Animates are still buyable, yet don't overwhelm. I put the onus of the effect on the weapon's limitation rather than the Animate's build.

 

Keith "Full Example Here" Curtis

[Dust Raven]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

I did something similar to that Keith, but it involved both the Real Weapon and Beam Limitations, and a simple Power (Armor +6 PD/+6 ED, Only Versus Beam & Narrow Thrust Attacks (-1), 9 points, 27 if the character had Takes No STUN). Occasionally there'd be an attack that might, from a lucky roll or magic, that would exceed this extra DEF, but due to common sense and the application of those Limitation, I just said such attacks had absolutley no effects regardless of the roll. Some attacks defined as a narrow beam, but without that Limitation had normal effect, but the DEF still applied.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

YMMV, of course.

You can still put the onus on the undead and have players get to roll the effect. Example:

 

VULN: 2x effect from clerical presence attacks. (player gets to roll)

PSYCH: Aversion to holy symbols (good for a 2 die bonus on a PRE attack)

PHYS: Takes body from PRE+20 attacks

 

With the above Lims, an undead might just possibly be turned by Joe Shmo and his cross. (PRE 10, +2 dice = 4 dice)

But if Mike the Cleric (2pt Perk) makes the same attack, with the same PRE, that 2 dice become 8 dice. Add in a die for an appropriate soliloquy (a holy prayer), and maybe some extra PRE because he's a cleric, and there's a good possibility Vlad will be feeling the righteous power of the gods.

 

Keith "Season to taste" Curtis

 

 

That is pretty much how I handle it. Undead have various limitations depending on what they are and how they are supposed to react to various stimuli. Skeletons and Zombies tend to be susceptible and vulnerable to holy auras. Most spirit creatures have a physical limitation where they can't pass into "holy ground" etc. However, I leave such things as turning undead and exorcising demons up to the players skill and ability. My players like rolling dice, so I let them.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Making things too complicated

 

This thread is to ask if anyone else out there has ever tried to build something, done it in an incredibly overcomplicated way, and then realized later that there was a much simpler way to achieve it. If you have, and think it's an understandable mistake, please share the details so I (and others) may be able to avoid such easy-to-commit mistakes in the future....

 

[The incredibly simple way of doing this? 1d6 Stun Drain, Ranged attack. Maybe with the Recovery moved a few rows down on the Time chart, to ensure the guards wouldn't wake up for a few hours. Doh.]

 

Relatively recently, I built a character with a 1d6 major physical transform anything to anything with the cumulative advantage. I later realized that transform, by nature accumulates effect and replaced the "cumulative" with some other advantage(s) that I had wanted the power to have.