Energy Output of Attacks

[Armitage]

I don't know if John Stevens is still around.

I recently had reason to consult this article again:

http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/dharchives/flavor.htm

 

I'm not sure how these numbers are coming about, unless my own math is wrong. I'm hoping involving extra people might find my mistake.

 

My first assumption is the energy output of an energy blast and physical strength are equal.

Using 60 STR/12 DC as the base.

 

Lifting 100 tons (100000 kg) against gravity

100000kg x 9.8 m/sec^2 = 980000 Newtons

 

Lifting it 2 meters (average character height)

980000N x 2 m = 1960000 Joules

 

Assuming the energy is expended in 1 second

1960000 J/1 sec = 1960000 Watts

 

Rounding to 2 megawatts puts the energy output about 25 times the article's 80 kilowatts.

 

Am I right or am I forgetting some basic physics?

[Zeropoint]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

As an armchair physicist, I think that trying to assign energy values to a certain number of dice is more likely to be frustrating than helpful.

[Robyn]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

While we're on similar subjects, what happens to an object's potential kinetic energy if you Teleport it from the ground to 60 feet up?

[Zeropoint]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

Teleportation and conservation of energy are things that do NOT go well together.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

While we're on similar subjects' date=' what happens to an object's potential kinetic energy if you Teleport it from the ground to 60 feet up?[/quote']

 

same thing as lifting it that high. what method of movement (lifting via STR alone, lifting and throwing, lifting and flying or T-port UAA) would all be treated the same according to real world physics.

[Kristopher]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

As I point out every time someone tries to do this, it's pointless. Delivered energy isn't the only determining factor in "damage", which is very much an abstraction of real-world physics.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

While we're on similar subjects' date=' what happens to an object's potential kinetic energy if you Teleport it from the ground to 60 feet up?[/quote']

Once it's 60 feet up Gravity takes over, at which point Potential Energy converts to Kinetic Energy as it approaches Terminal Velocity and eventually splats when Kinetic Energy is transfered into the ground.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

This might be easier to do with the base Leaping provided by Str. The maximum range can be used to calculate the initial velocity of the leap (with some base assumptions such as normal trajectories in a vacuum with 1G gravitational acceleration). Initial velocity can be equated directly with expended energy. I suppose you could factor Speed in to figure out how much power the character can generate.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

Here. For a trajectory in a vacuum under constant gravitational acceleration 'g', the maximum horizontal range (assuming no difference in elevation between the start and end) is:

R = v^2/g

where 'v' is the initial velocity. Hopefully we are dealing with non-relativistic velocities, so the kinetic energy difference between zero velocity and the initial velocity is:

E = mv^2/2

In terms of the maximum range this becomes:

E = mgR/2

For a mass of 100kg and a Str of 10 (R = 2 hexes = 4m), this means an energy of about 2kJ. This energy goes up linearly with Str (since 'R' is proportional to Str and 'E' is proportional to 'R'), so for 20 Str it becomes 4kJ, for 30 Str it becomes 6kJ, etc.

 

If we assume the average rate at which this energy can be produced is based upon the character's Speed, then a Str 10, Speed 2 character produces a power of:

P = 2kJ/6s = ~300W

(This is a little under half a horsepower, which is actually on the high side; your average man is supposed to be able to sustain an average of about a quarter horsepower.) Power goes up linearly with both Speed and Str, so:

E = 1kJ (Str/5)

P = 75W (Str/5)(Speed)

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

Boy, talking about teleportation and physics...

 

Think of it this way: A starship in geosync orbit over a planet's surface is moving at a tremendous velocity, whereas someone on the surface is moving at 1000 or so MPH as the world turns. (Ohhh, bad pun)

 

So if you beam him up to the ship suddenly, he's moving as way, way less than the thousands of MPH the ship is doing, so he materializes and instantrly slams thru the read of the ship. Likewise the poor boob beaming down instantly flies off over the horizon due to the fact his relative velocity is many, many times the rotational speed of the planet.

 

Now we assume that 'the transporter' handles this velocity issue somehow, adding or subtracting inertia and vector to keep people from becoming projectiles due to differences in relative velocity, but any other teleport system will either be limited in range or have to have some other way of dealing with the issue.

[Robyn]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

Now we assume that 'the transporter' handles this velocity issue somehow' date=' adding or subtracting inertia and vector to keep people from becoming projectiles due to differences in relative velocity, but any other teleport system will either be limited in range or have to have some other way of dealing with the issue.[/quote']

 

I think I came up with a power once that would align someone's momentum with a different point of reference; say, the sun, instead of the planet. For just a moment, but long enough that they were suddenly whisked off their feet and flung in the appropriate direction. Effectively, the entity invoking this power could take the largest nearby object, the planet, and hit you with it

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

I think I came up with a power once that would align someone's momentum with a different point of reference; say' date=' the sun, instead of the planet. For just a moment, but long enough that they were suddenly whisked off their feet and flung in the appropriate direction. Effectively, the entity invoking this power could take the largest nearby object, [b']the planet[/b], and hit you with it

 

(In a voice of shocked awe) And a GM actually let THIS in a game?

 

 

 

Damn, I knew a GM who wouldn't let me have the Lexx....

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

Our board colleague Bartman created a detailed Damage Class to Real World conversion matrix inspired by the material from "The Flavor of the Game," and included some of the assumptions on which he based his calculations. As he remarks, his figures and those of "Flavor" are pretty close, but his include more specific parallel examples. Maybe that would help clarify things. I saved the matrix as a Document file - I'll attach it below:

[Robyn]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

(In a voice of shocked awe) And a GM actually let THIS in a game?

 

I'm the GM, and the power is reserved for demigod-level entities - they only use it on other entities of that power level, because a tremendous amount of force is required to even stun them, and it's usually an inefficient move to use against any foe of lesser power.

 

By the way, throwing a planet-sized object (like the Earth) at someone does approximately +86d6 damage (for 3 million hexes). Or at least it did in my 1989 printing of 4th Edition, page S10.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

Boy, talking about teleportation and physics...

 

Think of it this way: A starship in geosync orbit over a planet's surface is moving at a tremendous velocity, whereas someone on the surface is moving at 1000 or so MPH as the world turns. (Ohhh, bad pun)

 

So if you beam him up to the ship suddenly, he's moving as way, way less than the thousands of MPH the ship is doing, so he materializes and instantrly slams thru the read of the ship. Likewise the poor boob beaming down instantly flies off over the horizon due to the fact his relative velocity is many, many times the rotational speed of the planet.

 

Now we assume that 'the transporter' handles this velocity issue somehow, adding or subtracting inertia and vector to keep people from becoming projectiles due to differences in relative velocity, but any other teleport system will either be limited in range or have to have some other way of dealing with the issue.

 

So, like... if I was in New York and teleported to Budapest, I'd fly straight up in the air (well, at a slight tilt southward) at 1000mph?

[Robyn]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

So' date=' like... if I was in New York and teleported to Budapest, I'd fly straight up in the air (well, at a slight tilt southward) at 1000mph?[/quote']

 

Don't forget air pressure. You'd probably vaporize from the heat caused by friction against the air molecules before you escaped atmosphere.

 

This is what happens when you let physicists too close to a good fictional story. Sheesh.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

Don't forget air pressure. You'd probably vaporize from the heat caused by friction against the air molecules before you escaped atmosphere.

 

This is what happens when you let physicists too close to a good fictional story. Sheesh.

0.001s per house? No wonder no one ever sees him.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Energy Output of Attacks

 

Our board colleague Bartman created a detailed Damage Class to Real World conversion matrix inspired by the material from "The Flavor of the Game' date='" and included some of the assumptions on which he based his calculations. As he remarks, his figures and those of "Flavor" are pretty close, but his include more specific parallel examples. Maybe that would help clarify things. I saved the matrix as a Document file - I'll attach it below:[/quote']

 

I've used a similar chart for years. In fact, its pretty much exactly the same! The weapon damages match up perfectly when translating from Hero system DC to real world Joule and Ft/lbs figures. At least, the 4th edition versions did, I'm not sure about the 5th edition versions...