Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

[fwcain]

(Quoting from here ):

 

One character has Danger Sense...Wasn't she surprised when a bunch of Ninja with "Invisibility to Danger Sense" attacked her?

This is why I've never permitted Invisibility to be purchased specifically against Danger Sense.

 

By the same token, however, I require Danger Sense to be defined as being in one of my campaign's Sense Groups (Sight; Hearing; Smell/Taste; Touch; Radio; Mental; Mystic); usually, it's defined as part of the Mental or Mystic Sense Groups.

 

Now, I will permit an Invisibility vs. the entire sense group to counter the relevant Danger Sense, but that's in keeping with the special effects defined for the Danger Sense and for the Invisibility...

 

How do you usually handle this type of dilemna?

 

Thanks,

Franklin

[ghost-angel]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

My main character has Invisibility vs Danger Sense.

 

but that's her schtick - absolute invisibility. It basically replaces defenses in her case, if something does hit her she splats.

 

I think it's one of those "whole character" cases where you have to look at what is going on in total with the character. If it's just another way to build The Perfect Combatant then in most cases it's very hard to justify (SFX or otherwise).

 

It has worked very well in our game, only occasionally frustrating the GM.

[David Johnston]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Well Spider-Man is the posterboy for dangersense and he has in fact run into people who were for some reason undetectible by it no matter how much of a threat they presented. However, an entire group of ninja who are invisible to Dangersense is simply absurd. That sort of over the top power should be reserved for a unique super-ninja, not the disposable, storebought variety.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Reminds me... part of my characters Invisibility is Inherent, Always On. Most of it is not. At one point we were looking at how the character had started to evolve and I wondered if putting the Danger Sense Invisibility in the Inherent portion were appropriate... i was denied:

 

GM: It's pretty evident that you're a danger when you can be seen.

Me: But she doesn't carry any weaponry and rarely talks.

GM: Exactly, anyone who shows up to a gunfight with no guns, and lets everyone else talk is automatically A Danger.

Me: Oh. Your bad guys aren't very trusting....

 

 

Anyways.. I agree with David: It's a cool schtick for a major villain or possibly a PC - but not off the shelf ninja. (what are they, $5 a dozen these days?)

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Yeah. I allow it, but not too often.

 

In the Ninja series by Van Lustbader (Read them years ago) in one of the later books he runs into a kunochio (sp?) who has the ability to mask her wa - the mystical and subconcious cues to let someone know she is going to attack. Pretty much a textbook example of invis to DS. That was one of my first encounters with the concept.

[cutsleeve]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

I wouldn't dissallow the build of invisibility versus danger sense. I would try to caution against its overuse but i wouldnt dissallow it. It can be a very unbalanced thing but i figure if you build something you should build a way to overcome it. Such as total invisibility might be overcome by sense Invisibility. The reasoning might follow that you arent trying to detect the character but the use of invisibility. Its actually a complicated issue when you get down to it. In all instances you should ere on the side which best enhances the fun factor/challenge factor.

 

Edit:

There are many exapmles of the use of this power. Spiderman comes readily to mind. If you watch way to much anime then you might know that rurouni kenshin had a character who was able to mask his killing desire from Kenshin. This is effectively the same effect as Invisibility to Danger sense. There are other characters in literature which have shown this ability. For that reason i wouldnt absolutely exclude it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

I think I'd just be a little careful with it. Some SFX of Danger Sense and Invisibility to such just don't make sense. For example, some versions of Danger Sense might be luck-based (things just conspire so that the character perceives something out of place and/or happens to move in such a way as to be just as hard to hit as in normal combat), and if the Invisibility has the SFX of hiding the attacker's intentions it doesn't seem it should work against the DS. Is such a dramatic ruling fair to either party given the points spent and the concepts? Tough call. I think it tends to factor into DS/Invisibility quite commonly for some reason, probably because the SFX of these tend to have such a big variance.

[cutsleeve]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Well special effect is always a deciding factor in how powers interact.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Well special effect is always a deciding factor in how powers interact.

Indeed. However, this is an example of two powers that are built to purposefully be diametrically opposed. One is built mechanically specifically to counteract the other. If you deny it it's purpose based on SFX, it seems a bit unfair. I worry about this stuff. It rarely comes up, fortunately.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Indeed. However' date=' this is an example of two powers that are built to purposefully be diametrically opposed. One is built mechanically specifically to counteract the other. If you deny it it's purpose based on SFX, it seems a bit unfair. I worry about this stuff. It rarely comes up, fortunately.[/quote']

It's a good thing to worry about, and just lends more weight to the fact that the System is trumped by the Game At Hand and what the GM and Players want out of the experience.

 

the old "just because you can doesn't mean you should" statement.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

I'm okay allowing player characters to take Invsibility to Danger Sense (in fact, two PCs in the game I'm currently running have this). It's never really been much of a problem. The one time one of these characters went up against a character with Danger Sense (and it really mattered), the hero was using up other slots in his MP at the time. Other times it's just added insurance when ambushing someone, which doesn't happen often except against mooks who'd fall like ten-pins anyway.

[David Johnston]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

I think that using Dangersense to represent luck is unnecessary. Any time you are about to be taken by surprise, you are at a disadvantage and therefore you should be getting your dice of luck anyway. Thus we have the Inspector Clouseau scenario where his ten dice of luck kick in every time an assassin is about to make his move.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

I think that using Dangersense to represent luck is unnecessary. Any time you are about to be taken by surprise' date=' you are at a disadvantage and therefore you should be getting your dice of luck anyway. Thus we have the Inspector Clouseau scenario where his ten dice of luck kick in every time an assassin is about to make his move.[/quote']

That's assuming you

1) bought "luck" as Luck Dice and

2) Aren't using Luck as SFX for any number of Powers.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

I think that using Dangersense to represent luck is unnecessary. Any time you are about to be taken by surprise' date=' you are at a disadvantage and therefore you should be getting your dice of luck anyway. Thus we have the Inspector Clouseau scenario where his ten dice of luck kick in every time an assassin is about to make his move.[/quote']

Yeah. Like the Combat Luck Talent is unnecessary because it can be done with the Luck Power, right?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Not to be another guy jumping on David's case concerning Luck, but...

 

Yeah, luck is a SFX that can be applied to anything. Luck is also a Power, but that Power doesn't do everything someone might consider to be lucky. Being suddenly and unexpectedly aware of a danger due to your awsome luck describes Danger Sense, not Luck, because Luck can't do that (might make something bad happen to the danger, but it won't make you aware of it).

[Sunday_Gamer]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Invisibility to Danger Sense is like any other power. Depends on the game you're running, depends on the players you have, depends on what you're looking for.

 

I've been in games where it never came into play, and Ive been in games where everyone and their mother had danger sense and the GM outlawed invisibility to it unless you also had invisibility to everything else (it was the cherry on the sundae)

 

Big honking "depends"

[GoldenAge]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Well Spider-Man is the posterboy for dangersense and he has in fact run into people who were for some reason undetectible by it no matter how much of a threat they presented.

Venom, for one... Yikes!

[David Johnston]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Yeah. Like the Combat Luck Talent is unnecessary because it can be done with the Luck Power' date=' right? [/quote']

 

No. Combat Luck works in situations where you aren't at a disadvantage.

But someone about to attack you by surprise is always a disadvantageous situation unless they simply don't have anything that can threaten you even with the extra stun from surprise. So assuming that you get any Luck results at all, at a minimum you can count on your attacker giving himself away to you before he attacks.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Actually, a suprise attack situation is where you are more likely to NOT have your Luck. Combat or otherwise (but especially Combat).

 

Because, it's one of the situations where you aren't very lucky.

 

Luck would more have the enemy fall on their swords as they try to move out from behind the bushes and attack you, and you never even know they existed. "Huh, I thought I heard someone's dying gasp... *shrug* must have been the wind."

[David Johnston]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Actually, a suprise attack situation is where you are more likely to NOT have your Luck. Combat or otherwise (but especially Combat).

 

Because, it's one of the situations where you aren't very lucky.

 

Luck would more have the enemy fall on their swords as they try to move out from behind the bushes and attack you, and you never even know they existed. "Huh, I thought I heard someone's dying gasp... *shrug* must have been the wind."

 

Well that depends on how much Luck you get. A single Luck success is "Your assassin steps on a twig alerting you to his presence". 4 or so successes is "Your assassin falls on his shortsword without you even noticing".

[Bloodstone]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

I have two characters with Danger Sense, both in very different campigns.

 

One has greatly enhanced senses and is preternaturally aware of his surroundings. However, since he lacks the Any Danger adder there are potentially still things out there that coud surprise him, so long as they can manage to get around ALL of his enhaced senses some how. Somone with Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, & Smell/Taste could probably pull it off. He's in a Champions style campaign, so chances are somone can come up with SFX to defeat this power.

 

My other Danger Sense user is a precog. He has the Any Danger Adder. Based on the lack of magic or time control powers in the game, I feel there are relativly few SFX that could legitimatly get around his ability. One of them would be a telepathic Clouding Men's Minds style Invisibility. Other then that, only way you are getting around his Danger Sense is if he fails the roll...

 

If we go back to Spider-man, there are at east two villians that have had some type of "Invisibility" to his Spider-Sense. Green Goblin has gased Pete to block his Danger Sense. This is an active attack and would probably be best designed as an Adjustment power. This Adjustment Power might even work on others with danger sense.

 

By contrast, Venom is passivly immune to Spider Sense. This is classic Invisibility to Danger Sense (Persistant might I add...). However, as far as I know it only ever worked against Spidy. It had to do with the symbiote's knowlege of him and how his powers worked. It was a nemesis power, pure and simple.

[fwcain]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Venom is passivly immune to Spider Sense. However' date=' as far as I know [u']it only ever worked against Spidy[/u]. It had to do with the symbiote's knowlege of him and how his powers worked.

OK, now this exception I could go for. A very limited case (vs. Spidey only), with an excellent justification (knowledge of how Spidey's senses work).

 

Thanks!

Franklin

[Alibear]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

However' date=' an entire group of ninja who are invisible to Dangersense is simply absurd. That sort of over the top power should be reserved for a unique super-ninja, not the disposable, storebought variety.[/quote']

 

I don`t understand the distinction. If one Ninja can learn this power why cant he teach it to others? The idea was just to get the player to stop relying on her Danger Sense, to stop taking her powers for granted and to use her brain instead.

 

YMMV.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

I don`t understand the distinction. If one Ninja can learn this power why cant he teach it to others? The idea was just to get the player to stop relying on her Danger Sense, to stop taking her powers for granted and to use her brain instead.

 

YMMV.

One explanation is that it is a Master Ninja trick, and only the best of the best can learn to mask their intentions so well they put off no aura of danger.

 

It's a way to mitigate things like this completely nullfying a characters powers from that point forward.

 

Many GMs (mine occasionally included) feel that "if one can, they all can" when it comes to enemies powers and ways to trick/get around a PCs powers. When it really should be reserved for a single episode or a particular nemesis only.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Re: Danger Sense vs. Invisibility (and vice versa)

 

Mushin (The Pure Mind)

 

A Zen term referring to that state of mental clarity and enhanced perception (sensory and intuitive) known as pure mind, produced by the absence of conscious thought, ideas, judgments, emotion (fear and anxiety), pre-conception, or self-consciousness.

 

Ninja Assassins who've mastered this technique would no doubt, be invisible to danger sense.