Draining SPD to Zero

[oryanfactor]

Suppose a villain, Dr. Oftheweek, Drained down Potato Man's SPD to -5, usng his hyper-encheplo nerve dampner, thereby freezing him in place. Potato Man can't move a muscle to act. However.....

 

Since his SPD is -5, would he take damage from an "ambient" attack, like cold, heat or poison gas in the area, since that damages each phase?

 

Could you damage him with a punch, since he's " in between ticks of the clock"?

 

And am I using the wrong power for this special effect?

 

oryan

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Wow, good question. I'm not versed ENOUGH to know the absolute answer, and I'm too lazy too look it up. That's one of the oddities on having a high SPD - you take damage more often, because you run that risk every time you take an action. If SPD is drained to 0 (you're encased in ice, say) and you're 'out of time' with everything else, you'll still take damage on Segment 12 (Recovery) because everyone takes damage on Segment 12, to the best of my knowledge.

 

However, you can hand wave it for the SFX, and quite possibly, someone else will have a clearer grasp than I do. Second thing - you can't drain someone to Negative SPD, because there is no Negative SPD; once you've drained the characteristic to 0, there's no where else for it to go. You can drain someone's STR score into the negatives, which is an oddity, but still there.

[CourtFool]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

I believe Entagle would be more appropriate and cost effective.

 

The victim's SPD has no baring on when he can take damage. Are you suggesting a normal with a SPD of 2 can only take damage on their phases? If you are trying to build this into the SFX of the power, then that is a different matter.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Suppose a villain, Dr. Oftheweek, Drained down Potato Man's SPD to -5, usng his hyper-encheplo nerve dampner, thereby freezing him in place. Potato Man can't move a muscle to act. However.....

 

Since his SPD is -5, would he take damage from an "ambient" attack, like cold, heat or poison gas in the area, since that damages each phase?

 

Could you damage him with a punch, since he's " in between ticks of the clock"?

 

And am I using the wrong power for this special effect?

"Hyper-encheplo nerve dampner"? Based on the name this is a classic example of a mental paralysis; in other words an EGO-based Entangle.

 

You cannot Drain SPD below 0.* And if you want him to take damage from ambient attacks, you've got to build the Entangle with "Takes No Damage from Attacks" so the attacks pass through it or otherwise you'll blow holes in your own Entangle and free our hapless hero.

 

IIRC, Continuous Attacks only do damage on the Phases of the attacker; not on the Phases of the victim. So how often Potato Man takes damage from that particular attack would depend on Dr. Oftheweek's SPD, not Potato Man's.

 

*EDIT: Actually, I'm wrong (see my post below). But a negative SPD has no combat effect beyond extending the time it takes to get the SPD back above 0.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Potato Man has become The Tachyon Potato, moving backward in time!

[Lucius]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

 

IIRC, Continuous Attacks only do damage on the Phases of the attacker; not on the Phases of the victim. So how often Potato Man takes damage from that particular attack would depend on Dr. Oftheweek's SPD, not Potato Man's.

 

Which leads to the curious situation of the SPD 4 gadgeteer's gas grenades doing more damage in a turn if the SPD 6 guy throws them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

On a SPD 13 palindromedary

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

If you want the target to be immune to external effects while frozen, then you're looking at either Extra-Dimensional Movement, Usable as Attack, with the special effect that he remains visible in this dimension as a frozen statue, or a combination of Desolidification, Usable as Attack, and an Affects Desolid Entangle.

[pinecone]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

In addition I supose Technicly you can't even drain Speed to zero...though I have no problem with it myself...I seem to remember reading something to that effect....I also see this as more of a entangle of maybe a Dex drain...negative Dex pretty much leaves you tottaly helpless and avoids involving The Doctor..

[Trebuchet]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Which leads to the curious situation of the SPD 4 gadgeteer's gas grenades doing more damage in a turn if the SPD 6 guy throws them.

If a SPD 6 guy borrows a SPD 4 character's gas grenades, I'd rule they work on the SPD 4's Phases regardless of who threw them. That's just common sense; and prohibits players from handing all their Continuous weapons to the speedster for maximum effect.

 

This is a minor rules glitch IMO. I think Continuous attacks should have worked more like Flash Attacks do - they should have effected a preset number of Segments rather than Phases; and could then be bought for increasing periods of time for increased Advantage cost (Segment, Turn, Minute, Hour, etc.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

While you can't really reduce someone's Speed below zero, I allow it to effectively be Drained below zero for purposes of figuring the Fade. It doesn't seem right to have a Speed 2 character recover just as quickly from a 10d6 Speed Drain as from a 5d6 Speed Drain.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

I just checked 5ER (p. 39, paragraph 2), and it turns out you technically can Drain SPD below 0. At SPD 0 or below, the character can take no Actions or move (literally frozen in place), has a DCV of 0, may take only Post-Phase 12 Recoveries, and Placed Shot penalties are halved. They drown as if their SPD is 2 as per the suffocation rules.

 

There is usually no real in combat benefit to Draining SPD below 0. However, a SPD below 0 does make the return of the Drained SPD take correspondingly longer; which might be relevant if the battle is prolonged.

.

[gojira]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Is this a new rule?

 

Hero System Almanac I says SPD of 0 or below means a character cannot act. They are frozen in place. They may only take post-segment 12 recovery, no other recovery is allowed. Yes, I think this means they drown, freeze, etc. slower than someone moving at a SPD of 2 or more, but that doesn't seem out of line with the SFX. HSA1 also says that the effect of negative SPD is just to increase the amount of time it takes to recover back to positive levels of SPD.

 

I also think the SFX is fine. It's a gadget, not a mentalist's attack. It makes perfect sense to me that it works differently than a mental entangle.

 

The ideas of XDM and entangle are fine, if taking no damage is important to the way the power works. If not, SPD drain works well. Note that this is a very powerful idea (along the lines of a body drain) and the GM should scrutinize a PC with this power closely. Also, it tain't fair to hit the PCs with lots of powers they don't have access too. Keep this power on NPCs small, and use them sparingly.

 

Good question tho'.

 

Edit: Cossed posts with Treb, who beat me to the punch.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Hero System Almanac I says...

What exactly is Hero System Almanac? Is this another name for the FAQs?

[rjcurrie]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

What exactly is Hero System Almanac? Is this another name for the FAQs?

 

Hero System Almanacs 1 and 2 were 4th edition supplements. They are superceded by the description of negative characteristics in the 5E and 5ER rulebooks.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Hero System Almanacs 1 and 2 were 4th edition supplements. They are superceded by the description of negative characteristics in the 5E and 5ER rulebooks.

Ah. Thank you for clarifying that.

[Robyn]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

edit: Of course, in the time it took me to look that up . . .

 

What exactly is Hero System Almanac? Is this another name for the FAQs?

 

I think "HERO System Almanac I" was meant to indicate the first volume (with Roman numerals). It was the first of two supplements for Fantasy HERO, published in 1993 (the second in 1995).

 

__________________

Robyn goes through Google to Wiki: Fantasy HERO.

[Lucius]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

If a SPD 6 guy borrows a SPD 4 character's gas grenades' date=' I'd rule they work on the SPD 4's Phases regardless of who threw them. That's just common sense; and prohibits players from handing all their Continuous weapons to the speedster for maximum effect.[/quote']

 

Suppose we have two gadgeteers, one SPD 6 and the other SPD 4. Each uses the same design to build a gas grenade. But the former's is more effective than the latter's, even if built identically out of an identical variable power pool?

 

This is a minor rules glitch IMO. I think Continuous attacks should have worked more like Flash Attacks do - they should have effected a preset number of Segments rather than Phases; and could then be bought for increasing periods of time for increased Advantage cost (Segment, Turn, Minute, Hour, etc.)

 

I think this is another of those times where you and I are in fundamental agreement.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary remembers that before the current dispensation, Flash Attacks were not done by segments either...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

Suppose we have two gadgeteers' date=' one SPD 6 and the other SPD 4. Each uses the same design to build a gas grenade. But the former's is more effective than the latter's, even if built identically out of an identical variable power pool?[/quote']Since in Hero we reason from effect, as a GM I would rule that in this instance even though the two grenades in question share identical designs the one built by the SPD 6 gadgeteer uses a 50% higher concentration of gas and hence is 50% more effective.

 

It's sheer sophistry, of course, but it makes more sense than strictly adhering to the rules. In my campaign sfx trumps construction.

 

I think this is another of those times where you and I are in fundamental agreement.

 

The palindromedary remembers that before the current dispensation, Flash Attacks were not done by segments either...

I like the 5e Flash rules far better than 4th's. But I don't like the Continuous rules as written; and consider them a minor flaw in the system as a whole. I don't know why Steve Long didn't apply the same logic to the Continuous Advantage as he did to the (IMO) much improved 5th Edition Flash. It seems like a self-evident and totally logical change for the better.

[gojira]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

I think "HERO System Almanac I" was meant to indicate the first volume (with Roman numerals). It was the first of two supplements for Fantasy HERO' date=' published in 1993 (the second in 1995).[/quote']

 

The Roman numeral was my mistake, its HERO System Almanac 1. First Printing 1993, edited by Bruce Harlick. It's not really a fantasy sourcebook, it has several genres, but I guess fantasy is a fair chunk. It's got a lot of rules for spirits (ghosts, zombies, etc.) for starters.

 

HSA1 is what you use when you don't have 5th. Judging from Treb's post, except for the clarification on drowing, there really wasn't major changes.

 

Here's the front cover:

http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showbook&bookid=107

[oryanfactor]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

You folks thought up several different angles to this thing that I hadn't thought of (i.e. the Desoild Entangle, Extra-Dimensional Movement, SFX trapped in time frame, etc.). cool.

 

What I was trying to do is imagine Potato Man, stuck in place, Drained to SPD 0 or less, but without being vunerable to being Zapped by Dr. Oftheweek's Radium Skrooching Gun while being caught in "stasis", and how that might work.

 

BTW, originally the device was titled the Hyper-Encephlo Nerve Dampner, but I suck at speeling.

 

oryan

 

Say, why am I an "imcompetant normal"??

[Trebuchet]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

What I was trying to do is imagine Potato Man' date=' stuck in place, Drained to SPD 0 or less, but without being vunerable to being Zapped by Dr. Oftheweek's Radium Skrooching Gun while being caught in "stasis", and how that might work.[/quote']Then a regular Entangle will do what you need. It will protect Potato Man from attacks while still rendering him motionless; it just has a special effect of "stasis field." You can even purchase extra defense to make it harder to damage (and thus break out the person in stasis).

 

Say, why am I an "incompetant normal"??

It's the default title you get as a new poster. The title will change as your post count increases, to Competent Normal, Low Powered Superhero, etc. I think the top level is Cosmic Level Superhero at 700+ posts.

 

Or you can select a custom title, like most of us do.

[oryanfactor]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

I "get" the Entangle, which would work, but I really like the Extra-Dimensional Movement, usable as attack, with SPX of Caught in Time Loop, moving one phase back and forth at the same time.......that's evil...

 

or alternately, with SPD -0 or less, you could say he "takes" damage normally, but it doesn't "show" until he heals the SPD back to 1, whatcha think?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

I "get" the Entangle' date=' which would work, but I really like the Extra-Dimensional Movement, [i']usable as attack, [/i]with SPX of Caught in Time Loop, moving one phase back and forth at the same time.......that's evil...

 

or alternately, with SPD -0 or less, you could say he "takes" damage normally, but it doesn't "show" until he heals the SPD back to 1, whatcha think?

Well, you certainly can do it that way, but...

 

As both a GM and a player, I am generally opposed to attacks which are unstoppable or uncounterable by the players in some fashion - be it with their own Powers, Skills, or sheer inventiveness - unless there is some overidding story-based reason for it. Very few, if any, characters are going to be capable of countering XDM at all, much less used in this fashion. IMO XDM is used far too often as a way to create oddball effects when a far simpler method exists. Remember, as a GM you have infinite points to build your villain, so there's no real prize to being able to beat a hero. If all you want to do is put Potato Man in stasis, then there's no real reason to figure out the build in Hero system at all - just say he's in stasis, and then let the other characters try to figure out how to reverse the effect and save their comrade (usually by defeating the bad guy).

 

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. There are few things players enjoy less than being totally helpless and unable to affect events in any way. So how is Potato Man's player going to react to being caught in a trap he can't possibly escape? Would you enjoy sitting around doing nothing for three hours while your fellow players try to fight the bad guy? Do you need a player to make a soda run that badly?

[oryanfactor]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

The short answer is...no.

 

The point here is not to stick it to the player, but was thinking reallt in terms of an interesting role-play situation, and in a certain way, in the favor of the player.

 

Stasis beams are a staple of comics and science fiction, and I actually wanted to find a way to do it, as I aluded to earlier, that doesn't allow the character to be harmed.

 

See, in the Potato Man example, the character has been "frozen", either in time or in physical form, but there's several places to go from there. Just "saying he's in stasis" is the unfair route. That doesn't give the player an "out".

 

Let's use Superman as an example. Being in physical stasis would bar Supes from using his awsome strength, but he might be able to put Heat Vision or "Super-Breath" to good use to escape. In fact, he might be able to just fly away, unable to "move", but very able to take off.

 

Assuming that the character is in a temporal stasis, the time factor in which he finds himself should be quantifable somehow, that's why I suggested from phase to phase. That doesn't nescessarily stop the character from acting, just puts him in a different relative viewpoint to his opponent and allies.

 

Lastly, being placed at SPD 0, the character would be truely frozen in game terms, no actions are allowed. In that situation, which is very "game legal", the villian should not be able to walk up and punch the character in the mouth while the hero is frozen.

 

One strange example of this sort of scene that wierdly stands out in my mind is the "Mork" episode of Happy Days. (C'me on, you watched it, don't lie) The one where Fonzie is frozen by Mork in the living room. Fonzie is finally able to break free as his thumb slowly rises up.......

 

oryan

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Draining SPD to Zero

 

This is what I was saying in the PM I sent you, Oryan. While it's incredibly cool that the NPC can unsynch people with the local time, it's also absurdly powerful because there's no defense against it. I suggest, if you really want to use EDM to simulate this, the following:

 

XDM, UAO, RSR, Requires a Resistance Roll ("will save," 'EGO', if it's a beam attack, 'reflex save,' or DEX, and if their molecules simply refuse to go anywhere, 'fortitude save,' or CON) which is what I'm using in my Epic Hero Campaign to simulate the d20 spell Banishment. In the campaign, which involves dealing with demons on a regular basis, the Banishment spell is critical to end some fights before they get too ugly. A couple of rounds with the higher ranked Demons can end a party (even a party of 300 pt. Fantasy Heroes).

 

For that reason, and to keep the power from being too abusable, I've installed Requires a Skill Roll which many people use automatically anyway, but for me, it's an option to invoke whenever they need to make one, as opposed to an all-the-time thing, and in 5ER it also lists the option of 'Requires an Opposed Skill Roll," or in this case, a Saving Throw for an additional +1/4.