What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

[SteelDoom]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

One of the disatisfactions I have with the game comes from the imbalance with playing high or low level characters. People say that this game can play low level supers and powerful godlike creatures but it doesn't quite work.

eg: if you are playing super high level then you will be rolling 20+ dice for an attack... does anyone really do this?

The official exp amounts favour low level characters with rate of growth. If you are a 75+ character getting 3 exp a session then in 30 sessions you will have almost doubled your character. If you are a 300+ cosmic, then you need to play a lot longer to double your points, which effectively means that the weaker you start the quicker you learn!

At low levels the granuality of the system can get in the way. A minus 1/4 limitation may not give a point break that is really relevant to the limit, especially if the limitation is being grouped with others.

The mega scale advantages seem awkward as they are more for high power users than lower.

 

An answer to this might be to apply scale to the character itself. You could go, for example with Normal, Heroic, Superheroic and Cosmic catagories. Then every character is a 150 + 100 disads with scaling rules applying to any interaction outside their own scale (whether vs NPC's or vehicles). This idea was taken from the very early (pre d20) Star Wars game. If you try and hit something on a larger scale than you then your damage is mostly absorbed and if you aim for a lower scale then it is difficult to hit (the death star would have trouble hitting a frieghter). While this would need to be modified to suit the chamions genre (a normal human should be easy for a super to hit). The concept then leaves everyone with making the same points in creation and with the same granuality when making characters.

To illustrate more; a 50 strength Normal would have the same strength as a 5 strengh Hero and a 50 strength Hero would be as strong as a 5 strength Super.

The exact numbers and scale would obviously need a lot of play testing to get it right. Would 6 Heroes be a match for one Super (end game villian)?

 

The other thing I have a problem with is that I don't think Killing vs Normal attacks have the right feel to them. Normal Attacks should by and large (by definition) be the normal attack. Leaving Killing Attacks as something to be feared except by those that happen to have the correct defence, it might be that Hardening automatically applies full defence vs Killing. Or it that killing does a lot more body and almost no stun, so that for a (for example) killing attack is a +1 (+2?) advantage but it does body and stun based on dice total like Normal attacks do, with no multiplier... 3d6 rolls an 11, which does 11 body and 11 stun damage. Or Maybe taking a page from White Wolf and having Normal, Lethal and Aggrivated damage (or similar) where the damage is essentially the same but healing is different.

 

In any event, give the types of damage a clear differnce, however it is done.

[Kristopher]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

If someone starts a thread for proposing changes to HERO, I honestly and simply don't care if they don't want posts stating that the system shouldn't be changed, I'm going to post that the system shouldn't be changed.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

If someone starts a thread for proposing changes to HERO' date=' I honestly and simply don't [i']care[/i] if they don't want posts stating that the system shouldn't be changed, I'm going to post that the system shouldn't be changed.

Why not merely read the thread and start your own thread? That way those of us who want to talk about the thread can without interuption from those of you who like the system as is. Your posting does nothing but put an element of discussion that is frankly not needed or called for. As a matter of fact, it was specifically requested NOT to be gone over.

 

WE ALL KNOW YOU LIKE HERO. WE ALL LIKE HERO TOO> WE GET IT. REEEEEALLY.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

My assumption was that the only change was to the dice rolled' date=' not to the computation of OCV, DCV, bonuses to skill rolls, etc.[/quote']

Yes. Fair enough. I thought you were talking about an Activation Roll. I would keep the cost/probabilities roughly the same for Activation and Skill rolls, only the Attack Rolls would change. (For skills, I could use +1 for 1 point instead of 2, since each +1 represents only half as much increased chance of success as before.)

 

If I read the metarule to not state "simple generally = valid, however, I would have to ban Ego Attack since an EB, AVLD, Invisible, Custom Advantage to target ECV would be far more expensive. I don't believe the writers intended that a power they write up be banned entirely because there is a ore expensive way to build it, so I interpret the metarule in the context of the overall rules system, and conclude on the designer's intent.

A perfect example of why it needs clarification.

[tesuji]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Congratulations' date=' you've proven yourself rude, thoughtless and uncaring. Why not merely read the thread and start your own...you know...how someone with manners might? If you need help, I can draw you a picture of where the "New Thread" button is.[/quote']

 

what?

 

a thead on the hero games board whose purpose is to see how good people like the hero system?

 

this is seen as needed?

 

the board isn't already pro-hero enough for you guys?

 

will there be free kool-aid at this new thread?

 

:-)

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

what?

 

a thead on the hero games board whose purpose is to see how good people like the hero system?

 

this is seen as needed?

 

the board isn't already pro-hero enough for you guys?

 

will there be free kool-aid at this new thread?

 

:-)

 

I believe I was promised punch and pie.

[Lucius]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

If someone starts a thread for proposing changes to HERO' date=' I honestly and simply don't [i']care[/i] if they don't want posts stating that the system shouldn't be changed, I'm going to post that the system shouldn't be changed.

 

Yes, some of us have noticed that’s your hobby.

 

Can you at least focus on some of the ideas and explain WHY you think this or that specific change is a bad idea, and why the way it is now is superior?

 

what?

 

a thead on the hero games board whose purpose is to see how good people like the hero system?

 

this is seen as needed?

 

the board isn't already pro-hero enough for you guys?

 

will there be free kool-aid at this new thread?

 

:-)

 

 

Similar threads have been done. We don’t always want to talk about what we would change. Sometimes we like to talk about what we love about the Hero System.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary finds it tasty and easy on the digestion.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

For those of us who would like to share what we think HERO did right and well, or have something positive to say about HERO, I have started this thread too.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1075422#post1075422

 

Enjoy.

 

Now, on with this thread.

 

I don't believe this thread is negative and threatening to the HERO system as some have insinuated. This is a thread to explore new ideas and ways to make things better. If free thinking scares you, go elsewhere.

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I'm constantly baffled on why a board devoted to fans of the Hero System is so Hero System positive. I just don't get it.

 

[Lucius]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

For those of us who would like to share what we think HERO did right and well, or have something positive to say about HERO, I have started this thread too.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1075422#post1075422

 

Enjoy.

 

Now, on with this thread.

 

I don't believe this thread is negative and threatening to the HERO system as some have insinuated. This is a thread to explore new ideas and ways to make things better. If free thinking scares you, go elsewhere.

 

I'm not sure why anyone would feel threatened at all. It's not like Hero Games is waiting breathlessly to implement any harebrained change we come up with; in fact, it's not like they're likely to implement even positive, reasonable changes we come up with.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Insert palindromedary tagline here.

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I'm not sure why anyone would feel threatened at all. It's not like Hero Games is waiting breathlessly to implement any harebrained change we come up with; in fact, it's not like they're likely to implement even positive, reasonable changes we come up with.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Insert palindromedary tagline here.

 

Personally, I don't think its a matter of feeling threatened but more a knee jerk reaction to how these threads ususally end up sounding. Someone, ususally new to the boards comes up and procedes to tell, or at least imply, how every one has been playing the game "wrong" and if you think its fine as it is, you are some simple minded fanboy thats too stupid to know when you're not actually enjoying yourself and that feelings is ususally served with a big heaping helping of smug attitude to help wash it down.

[rjcurrie]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Personally' date=' I don't think its a matter of feeling threatened but more a knee jerk reaction to how these threads ususally end up sounding. Someone, ususally new to the boards comes up and procedes to tell, or at least imply, how every one has been playing the game "wrong" and if you think its fine as it is, you are some simple minded fanboy thats too stupid to know when you're not actually enjoying yourself and that feelings is ususally served with a big heaping helping of smug attitude to help wash it down.[/quote']

 

There's also the danger that if we only talk about the negative aspects of the system, someone new to the game may come in and see all these negative issues that "some" people have with the system and see no positives mentioned or no defenses of the current methodology may just assume that the system is badly broken because no one seems to actually like it and decide that it is not simply worth the trouble to play HERO. Is that really what anyone wants?

[tesuji]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

There's also the danger that if we only talk about the negative aspects of the system' date=' someone new to the game may come in and see all these negative issues that "some" people have with the system and see no positives mentioned or no defenses of the current methodology may just assume that the system is badly broken because no one seems to actually like it and decide that it is not simply worth the trouble to play HERO. Is that really what anyone wants?[/quote']

 

Well we don't have to fear then, cuz clearly, there are people who, in order to protect the apparently very fragile thing that is HERO, have taken the mission of making sure positive pro-hero don't change things it works fine posts get put everywhere, even in threads deliberately started to discuss other things.

 

About the only thing I am curious about it do the members of the HERO DEFENSE LEAGUE waer matching berets or something?

 

:-)

 

Hey look, having positive fanboy posts on a games home site is to be expected. Its just a bit unusual to see it portrayed as a necessity to avert danger.

 

Honestly, i really think there is one underlying message here... those discussing change and variation and alternatives and how things could work differently... they don't seem to think the HERO system is as fragile or as in need of effort to protect as the ones slamming the threads seem to.

 

Then again, its not a new thing for one man's "make the system do what i want" to be another man's "ruination of the system" even in games where the "ultimate toolkit" approach isn't given the lip service it is in HERO.

[rjcurrie]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

All I was doing was commenting on the feeling that there shouldn't be any comments in this thread that defend the current system or mention why the changes wouldn't work. Do I think the Hero System is perfect? Of course not. But to be honest, we spend so much time on these boards talking about things that don't work, that I do indeed worry about the perception that it might give to newcomers. Perhaps I am wrong about that, but given the state of the RPG industry these days, pretty much every game company needs all the customers it can get.

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't post negative things about the Hero System, but you shouldn't be surprised when people disagree with you. Now, to be honest, defenses of the HERO system in this thread should problem be more in the area of "I think that's something they didn't get wrong and here's why" rather than simply saying "HERO doesn't need changes".

 

Oh, and I believe the matching berets arrive next week.

[Kristopher]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I think some people fail to realize just how much "this needs to be changed" gets posted in waves on these boards. There used to be the neverending "STR is underpriced!" discussion that went on and on, with certain posters turning every 4th or 5th HERO System Discussion thread into another outlet for their personal crusade about the costs of characteristics and how terribly unfair and broken they supposedly are and so on.

[DreadDomain]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Get ready....

 

Reduce the number of subsytems. We have:

Rolling Normal Damage

Rolling Killing Damage

Characteristics Rolls

Characteristic contests

To hit rolls

Many different skill cost structures.

Comparison rolls (such as many mental powers and Pre attacks)

 

and I'm sure there are more.

Reduce the number of these. Aim for:

 

1) One resolution mechanic for success/failure:

To hit

Skill rolls

Cha Rolls

 

2 ) One resolution mechanic for effect:

Damage

degree of effectiveness

 

 

This is a "Me Too" moment!!!

[DreadDomain]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Oh! And I would like the Characteristic system reworked a bit (see this post for an example http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=840778&postcount=33).

 

But that would be far from a fundamental change in heroic games. It might upset things a bit in superheroic though.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Using leverage is great but if there is just no logical way an 80 lbs little Chinese Guy is going to Block a punsh by Ogre unless the guy is using Super-martial Arts or Chi Powers or some such. Dodge' date=' I can see. Now lets take into effect that it doesn't even take a Martial Arts Genius to Buy Block and any schmoe who goes to the Martial Arts Academy when he's not working at Denny's has a chance of Blocking the Hulk? Hmmmm...logic is flawed.[/quote']

 

Where's the "logic" of someone being strong enough to thow cars around? Or of someone being made of Steel/Rock/Water/Lava/Gaseous-substance #7/Energy? It's comic book physics. In a more realistic (street level) setting, there aren't the vast differences in Strength, so the "problem" goes away there.

 

If you desire more 'realism' in the martial arts in your games, feel free to make a house rule. I don't think the fundamental martial arts system needs to be changed -- otherwise, you'd be spoiling it for the rest of us.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

There's also the danger that if we only talk about the negative aspects of the system' date=' someone new to the game may come in and see all these negative issues that "some" people have with the system and see no positives mentioned or no defenses of the current methodology may just assume that the system is badly broken because no one seems to actually like it and decide that it is not simply worth the trouble to play HERO. Is that really what anyone wants?[/quote']

 

I think the fact that HERO has a board in the first place along with a die hard core of fans going for over 20 years would be a good clue for them that the system has its "good points".

 

What I would be afraid of is a bunch of people who do not question anything about a system and mindlessly badger and berate people who come up with new ideas for the system. Thats frankly uninviting and would scare a newcomer off a lot easier, in my opinion. Good thing I am the stubborn sort.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Personally' date=' I don't think its a matter of feeling threatened but more a knee jerk reaction to how these threads ususally end up sounding. Someone, ususally new to the boards comes up and procedes to tell, or at least imply, how every one has been playing the game "wrong" and if you think its fine as it is, you are some simple minded fanboy thats too stupid to know when you're not actually enjoying yourself and that feelings is ususally served with a big heaping helping of smug attitude to help wash it down.[/quote']

 

Hmmm.... I wonder if you are implying me. I hope not. I haven't told anyone or even implied that they were playing the game "wrong" I asked for a disucssion of what fundamental things would you change if you had your way about the system. That simple. I was hoping for a dialog from more experienced gamers with Hero who have found different rules helpful in their game or to talk about issues they have with the game. If that is smug, then well....shoot me. I am guilty. I just thought it would be fun to talk with people who have played the game as long or longer than I had about mechanics and theory. Did you think I was implying something? If you were not implying me, my apologies. I am new to the board and started this thread so it sounded like a thinly veiled attack oj me, but if I am wrong, please forgive me.

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I think some people fail to realize just how much "this needs to be changed" gets posted in waves on these boards. There used to be the neverending "STR is underpriced!" discussion that went on and on' date=' with certain posters turning every 4th or 5th HERO System Discussion thread into another outlet for their personal crusade about the costs of characteristics and how terribly unfair and broken they supposedly are and so on.[/quote']

 

Well, for those of us new to the board who haven't managed to get their opinion beaten out of them, could you please post some links to these discussions. I am interested in hearing about them and reading them.

 

Not everyone has read these threads. Especially those of us WHO ARE NEW TO THE BOARD.

 

And greeted so warmly and happily when bringing their ideas. They may not be new to you, but being a little more freindly and less hostile would go a long way as far as bringing new players to the game....maybe....ya think?

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Using leverage is great but if there is just no logical way an 80 lbs little Chinese Guy is going to Block a punsh by Ogre unless the guy is using Super-martial Arts or Chi Powers or some such. Dodge' date=' I can see. Now lets take into effect that it doesn't even take a Martial Arts Genius to Buy Block and any schmoe who goes to the Martial Arts Academy when he's not working at Denny's has a chance of Blocking the Hulk? Hmmmm...logic is flawed.{/QUOTE']

 

Where's the "logic" of someone being strong enough to thow cars around? Or of someone being made of Steel/Rock/Water/Lava/Gaseous-substance #7/Energy? It's comic book physics. In a more realistic (street level) setting, there aren't the vast differences in Strength, so the "problem" goes away there.

 

If you desire more 'realism' in the martial arts in your games, feel free to make a house rule. I don't think the fundamental martial arts system needs to be changed -- otherwise, you'd be spoiling it for the rest of us.

 

I have a problem with this line of thinking. (Not with you, please. This is not a personal attack against you in any way, shape, or form. Just wanted to preface this statement as apparently there are some who can't take a joke.).....(Not that I am saying you are one of those people.....which I don't really know you so I could not surmise as to the general sense of humor or level of intelligence of you as a person though I am sure it is quite high......Not that I am insinuating that I know you on a personal level, as I don't.....there....is that enough cushion for everybody.....not that I think you need cushioning.....Its just...er.....just nevermind)

 

I have a problem with this line of thinking. What if I want to make a street level game where the strength levels DO change drastically. Hero should be able to adapt to both. Hero, God bless it, is MORE than JUST a super-hero game. It is a game that can adapt to multiple genres. While the system has GREAT systems for realistic and for comic-book physics, I think that (In my humble opinion. Hope no one is offended by it) the system needs to be able to acid test itself both to a "realistic" physics with unusual circumstances and "super-hero" physics as well. It does it NEAR FLAWLESSLY in several circumstances, but this is one thing that bothers me a bit in the system. Thats all. I think a Rules variant for Block for those who prefer it would be a good move. I don't think a Variant would ruin it for anyone.

 

(Please don't report me, If I offended anyone.....not that I want to offend you by asking you not to be offended.......)

[SteveZilla]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Control isn't the difference between Falling and a Move Through. There are existing rules for and uncontrolled Move Through' date=' with examples given for an attempted Move Through that hits something else, or putting up a FW directly in the path of a moving character that can't slow down or turn in time to avoid it. The only real difference is that there is a separate rule for Falling than running into walls.[/quote']

 

There are? I haven't seen any such rules in 5re (though I may have missed them). Can you give me a book & page reference, please?

 

And AFAIK, in the case of a missed Move-Though (and has movement inches left), the character is still in control, just comitted. While the character has to continue in a straight line past the target, they *can* slow down. Not allowing them to turn is IMO as much a function of game balance as comic-book physics.

 

But by "uncontrolled", I meant that literally. Take a character that can't fly or glide and drop from a great height. As they fall, they have no controll over their movement. They *will* be moving towards the ground, and *will* be accelerating (up to terminal V). And will almost never have controll over their orientation -- meaning they could just as easily land on their head as anywhere else.

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Hmmm.... I wonder if you are implying me. I hope not. I haven't told anyone or even implied that they were playing the game "wrong" I asked for a disucssion of what fundamental things would you change if you had your way about the system. That simple. I was hoping for a dialog from more experienced gamers with Hero who have found different rules helpful in their game or to talk about issues they have with the game. If that is smug' date=' then well....shoot me. I am guilty. I just thought it would be fun to talk with people who have played the game as long or longer than I had about mechanics and theory. Did you think I was implying something? If you were not implying me, my apologies. I am new to the board and started this thread so it sounded like a thinly veiled attack oj me, but if I am wrong, please forgive me.[/quote']

 

Don't worry, if ever attack you. You'll know it. I will say that some of your replies on this thread have been heading in the direction I describd and rapdily. Comments such as "not having the opinion beaten out of you" for a recent example. Taking a lighter approach might reduce some of "hostile" reaction you feel you're getting.

[SteveZilla]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

The fact that many of the changes are not fundamental' date=' despite the thread title, suggests to me that radical change is not broadly desired.[/quote']

 

Perhaps because they aren't needed?