How would you create this power?

[mcgreeno]

All right, the character I am creating is a Techno-morph with some cyber-kenitic abilities. However I am attempting to create a realitivly difficult power.

 

Control Simple Machine; This power allows the hero/villian to control the function of machines are realitivly simple. In a mechanical sense the power is used to control any device that has No INT/EGO.

Example; Make a car go in reverse while agianst what the driver wants, lock the vechiles doors, cause the weapon to miss fire or not fire at all, make the hovervechile land/fly away. Take over a suit of power armor and make it a puppet. ETC.

 

I Think that this would be a combo power or at least it's very own multipower.

 

My current Thoughts are; TK, only usable agianst machines, can only make machine do what it normaly does. (aka not have flying cars, but move the car on the ground following it's rules.

 

As far as I understand Mind Control does not work on a machine or tech device that does not have a Int/Ego however I may be wrong and this could be solved so much simpler.... But I want the power to work on Powered armored characters as well as technological focus items.

 

Any Ideas??

[prestidigitator]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

The TK is a good idea, and might certainly work against power-armor characters.

 

You may (with GM's permission) be able to influence machines that have no Int/Ego with Mental Powers vs. the Machine Class of minds. However, I doubt many GMs are going to let that work on a power-armor character.

[SSJ Archon]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

Curiousity: Is this like the gift Control Simple Machine from White Wolf's Werewolf the Apoc. ?

 

Anywho, I would throw this at my GM and see what he thinks.

 

Systems Operation 11-, Ranged +1/2, Concentration (Must Concentrate throughout use) -1/2 = 4 Active Points, 3 Real Points

 

Welcome to the forums!

[mcgreeno]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

That is a very intresting approach... Use a skill at range, would it not need to also have the advantave usable as an attack (I know it is not an attack, but this power could seem like one)?

 

WF Small Fire Arms 1 (Usable as an attack +1), Usable at Range +1/2, Must concentrate -1/2. Total Cost 2 pts

 

To give an example of taking over someone elses gun.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

I would use a combination of TK, Fine Manipulation, Machines Only and Mind Control, Machine Class.

[mcgreeno]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

65 WF: Beam Weapons, Emplaced Weapons, Energy Weapons, Small Arms, Flamethrowers, General Pupose/Heavy Machine Guns, Grenade Launchers, Shoulder-Fired Weapons, Vehicle Weapons, Ranged (+1/2), Line of Sight (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1), Area of Effect (32" Radius; +1 3/4). Selective (+1/4) (65 Active Points; Concentration (1/2 DCV -1/4), Consts Endurance (Only Cost End to Activate; -1/4)

 

Would This work, Aka just to control any Guns in the Area with one simple commmand? Do I need Line of Sight with Area of Effect? Could Variable Special Effect be applied to the WF to cover All weapons (WF; Variable Special Effect limited to Technological Weapons (+1/2)?

 

Side not how do you cut and paste to the hero fourm? I built the power with HD 3, But I can't seem to paste into the post form?

 

Thanks for welcoming me to the forum, by the way. I have been here before but only posted 2 or 3 times.

[Shike019]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

I would use a combination of TK' date=' Fine Manipulation, Machines Only and Mind Control, Machine Class.[/quote']

 

This is what I was going to suggest. Maybe for the mind coltrol add in a limit (-1/4 maybe) Only simple machines.

 

Though You might get away with just a TK...

[SSJ Archon]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

There are a few subtle things to note about this approach.

 

1) If you use this on for example, a gun, it will not turn around in mid air to fire. In fact, you most likely won't be able to even shoot 'at' someone. However, you could for example, put the safety on, drop the magazine, even perhaps begin to disassemble the gun. This assumes your GM will let you do this with Systems Operation.

 

2) You will not really be able to attack some very well, if at all with this. In my house, I would rule this as Str 0 TK, with a limitation of Cannot be used to attack. For example, you could open and close a door, but you could not effectively hold a door closed against an opponent, because they would be so much stronger. (If needed, we could roll the combat, but I generally would not let you add anything to it, so you would undoubtiblely lose.) If this is not the effect your looking for, then go the TK route instead.

 

3) To be truly effective, you should buy a whole suit of skills this way, such as Weapon and Vehicle Familarities, Systems operations, Electronics, and so on.

 

4) To model the fact that it is simple machines, instead of putting a limitation on it and letting the GM have to decide, this method allows you to simplely purchase the skills at a low level, so that more complex things would be very difficult. I personally like this, because it allows you to with XP, slowly move to complex machines as you build your ranged skills.

 

5) Remember, you will not be able to use your hands when using this power, and will most likely be prohibited from taking gestures, because the normal use of the skill could be considered having the limitations Gestures. It is difficult to change a flat without your hands after all.

 

These are points that I believe would be true. Depending on your intreptation of the spirit and text of the rules, this may vary from game to game, but this is how I would perform it, unless convinced otherwise. These may not even be how Steve would do it, but I also have been curious about how he feels about Skills with advantages, such as ranged.

 

I hope this is helpful, though I am not nearly as expierence as many of the nice people on this forum.

[SSJ Archon]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

I just remembered another point. If your character is not very knowledge about technology, then in that way this method it better that the TK route, because you will still have to purchase the skills in some respects for the TK to work. Its great if you can touch the gun from range and all, but you have to know a little about it to take it apart with any speed.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

To expanded on SSJ Archon's point - Skills At Range don't actually allow you to manipulate things - that's stepping to far into the Telekenesis Power.

 

Thoug a simple: TK: 2pts STR, Fine Manipulation, Machines Only (-1); 13 Active Points, 6 Real Points would allow you to push buttons and flip switches to your hearts content. And Skill Knowledge you have (Sys Op, Electronics) would let you know what your were pushing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

Side not how do you cut and paste to the hero fourm? I built the power with HD 3' date=' But I can't seem to paste into the post form?[/quote']

Select the Power in HD, Copy it, go to the Forum window, Paste. Should work, does for me all the time.

[Frenchman]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

Here's a wierd take on it:

 

Mind Control 10d6, NND (Operating a Shielded Machine; +1), Continuous (+1) (150 Active Points); Only to affect how the person operates a specific machine which they are currently using (-1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4)

 

With this one you technically take control of the machines operator, not the machine itself. It would work well for a power armor suit and vehicles, at least.

[Rkane_1]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

Hmmm...though since the object actually has no EGO to attack and is not a being that can determine what it does. Its a machine that only does something when pushed into action or engaged in someway by an outside force. I would say Telekinesis is the way to go. If it affected computers or AI then I would go the Mind Control Route.

 

Just an opinion.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

I've usually ruled that machines that are built as Powers and don't have an INT/EGO score are considered to have a score of 0 instead. This means that Mind Control still works, but without any decision making element to the machine, all actions are considered Violently Opposed, meaning an effect of 30+ to get it to do anything. Also, any attempt effectively instant. The target gets a single breakout roll (a 9- for the CHAR of 0 minus the usual penalty of -1/5 points over the desired effect) and if unsuccessful, the device automatically breaks out the following Phase. In order to continuously opperate such a machine, the cyberpath needs to give it constant attention.

 

This gets tricky if the device is something payed for by a character. The last thing I'd want is for some punk with a 50 point power turning off every system in my 200 points of power armor or deciding whethor or not my 90 active point blaster cannon will fire this round. In this case, I treat it as an attack on the character, using his EGO and Mental Defense, if any, and using how opposed to the action the character is instead of the machine. If the character wins, he maintains control of his device.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

There are some interesting options presented in the UNTIL Superpowers Database and USPD II under "Cyberkinesis Powers." The basic ability to manipulate unintelligent machines is covered by Telekinesis with Fine Manipulation, Only To Affect Machines And Machine Parts. However, another Cyberkinetic power construct, the ability to activate and direct weapons remotely, is used as the SFX for an Indirect EB or RKA. One power designed to allow remote control of a vehicle is built as Summon Vehicle with the Slavishly Loyal Advantage; apparently SL is intended to cover the character's capacity to control the vehicle remotely.

 

Also, Steve Long's "HEROglyphs" column in Digital HERO #14 presents a new optional Power, "Activate," allowing someone to activate or deactivate a machine at range with a successful Attack Roll. I apologize for not giving more details about any of these constructs here, but I'm trying to stay within "fair use" guidelines for quoting Hero Games's IP.

[The Monster]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

Here's how I did it - my wife's Champions character "The Chauffeur" is entirely about machine manipulation.

 

Problem with Mind Control is that machines don't have minds, so there's no EGO to work against (obviously, AI's are different, but more later).

 

One power is Telekinesis, Fine Manipulation, Only to Operate Machine Controls, STR 10 (so you can operate gearshifts and such as ably as a normal person). Associate (maybe even Link) that with a limited Clairsentience, Only to Know Machine Controls, so you can be aware of fuel levels, what the machine can and can't do, etc. - you don't want to be blindly groping around the control panel!

 

That alone is pretty cheap and fairly potent in the right circumstances. I learned this the hard way when I ran some Battlemechs against the group; after a very short time, they realized she could just reach in and punch the ejection seat, bouncing the pilot right out of the fight!

 

But more than that, the character concept is that he talks to machines, who respond to him as if they were alive. So what I did was create a Summon power, which Summons an AI (call it a spirit if you like) into the machine, which Chauffeur can then psychically talk to and negotiate into doing what he wants. The AI comes with the friendly adder, but I run it so that the machine actively wants to perform its inteded function. So there's some discussion and even argument (in character) if he wants a gun to not fire, or the pump flooding the deathtrap to stop pumping, that sort of thing.

 

Unfortunately, this power set means that running tanks and mechs is largely pointless, which limits my GM threat options But it's fun to "role-play" the machines as Chauffeur tried to talk them into doing what he wants, instead of what their owners/caretakes want. It also makes it hard to use getaway vehicles for any less than major villains who have AI in their car/plane/ship. The other limitations is that it doesn't work against electronics - so he can't just cancel electronic locks: even though he can push the keys remotely, he still has to know the code, and he can't talk to the lock and make it tell him. It also, of course, doesn't work against AIs, which already have an EGO of their own. So self-aware robots, even very stupid ones, are proof against it.

 

It also helps that the character has a psychlim that makes him avoid harming machines whenever possible - sort of a moderate CAK related to machines (hey, they're living things too, right?). That keeps him from just using machines as expendable ammo or suicide drones, which would be pretty rude.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

Hmm. Kind of a UAA Computer, eh? That's crazy! But interesting....

[prestidigitator]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

I don't buy the Skill with Ranged approach. Just like Skills can be used with all kinds of Senses, I think they can also be used through all kinds of media. Skills are already usable at Range, or over the phone, or through cyberspace. They're something you know how to do and the ability to do it using any appropriate tools and mechanisms, not the actual mechanism itself.

 

Therefore Systems Operation might be useful for having the machine do what you want it to do, but the way of manipulating at a distance has to be present and is independent of the Skill. So TK could be appropriate, or a wireless communication device and a password for access (maybe Computer Programming to obtain it), or whatever.

[TaxiMan]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

Re: Skills as Powers

 

Don't forget that using a skill takes a reasonable amount of time by default. If it takes 5 minutes in real life, that's the default. You incur penalties to the roll to drop down the time chart (all this is by my recollection).

 

You likely need some serious bonuses to use System Operations in a phase. You clearly do for Computer Programming and other more obvious cases.

 

I don't like the skill-at-range approach for such a combat-useful power. Out of combat? Not so worried about it being cheap if it's not unbalancing to the game.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

I think that the TK approach is great for most cases with simple machines. It can even be fairly cheap, depending on how much STR you want (sure you can drive the car remotely, but you might need extra STR if someone else is trying to drive it at the same time). It is best for simple machines where you are essentially operating them from range.

 

The problem is that the TK is way too powerful for its points when you try to control someone's power armor or killer robot. Sure the SFX is the same, but from a balance standpoint a 30 point power should not allow you to seize control of Mechassassin and have him do your bidding.

 

Mind control seems like the obvious solution, but you aren't really controlling Mechassassin, you are controlling his armor. You could buy up the STR of your TK to force the issue, depending on the SFX of your cyberkinesis, but that leads to other problems (like logically you should have a STR vs. STR roll against Mechassassin's normal STR, not his power suit STR, but in game terms you have not taken his focus away yet so he should still get to use it).

 

For me the best solution is (don't hate me) a Transform (object into animate object under character's control, must spend END to maintain). Bigger objects should be harder to manipulate, so it fundamentally works with the SFX. It also maintains game balance, because if you could just as easily Transform Mechassassin himself in to a loyal slave. Granted you kind of assume that Mechassassin's armor has the same BDY he does, but that strikes me a reasonable.

 

_____________________________________________________________

"Clothes make the man. Naked people have very little influence on society." - Mark Twain

[xxwolverine1xx]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

I agree TK....

 

I made a Techno Wizards from Rifts like this....

 

Skills: Computer programing, Eletronics, Forgery, SS; Robotics, Mechanics, Security systems, KS; Electronics, KS; Robotics, PS; Robotics, Security systems, and System opperations.

 

I am sure you could add to those or subtract as you wished.

 

Powers: Control machines (TK), Cumunicate with computers (telepathy), Reprogram (transformation), Overide (mind control)... All with only vs. machines limitations, and other limitations that would work for you..

 

Good luck with your character...

[Checkmate]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

To get the gun to not fire and little things like that, use a dispel Tech power.

[Ganesh]

Re: How would you create this power?

 

This is a much stranger approach, and not rules-orthodox, but...

 

Mind Control: takes over (People -- a large, useful group), reduced by (Mental Def), must overcome (Ego), adjusted by (attitude), Breakout with (Ego roll).

 

So, to make a "machine control" power, find things of roughly equivalent value to those, then apply limitations (like Instant) as nec.

 

(People -- a large, useful group) to (Simple Machines -- a large, but not nearly so useful group) would be the obvious limitation

 

(Mental Def)...well, this is interesting. What's the SFX on the control of these machines? ED might be appropriate, although that would certainly be a large limitation. Power Defence might make sense, and mean that people might have "tamper-proof" devices with Power Defense. It should be fitting with the means of control.

 

(Ego) -- as mentioned before, these machines don't have Ego. Do you "infect" the machine with a cloud of nanites? It might want to overcome Body. Or perhaps this is more metaphysical, and you want to overcome some function of the AP of the device (how much AP does the standard device in the target range have in your world?) or something stranger.

 

(Attitude) -- control might be adjusted by complexity. If this is Cylon-like machine control, you might even want to flip that, and say simplicity -- complex devices with lots of parts (like a car) are more difficult than fairly simple devices (like a gun). Or it might be based on the actual attitude of the machine, as in one of the posts above -- more difficulty based on how far outside normal opperating parameters you want the device to go, or even on the attitude of the person who set the device.

 

(Ego Roll) -- well, for things that are being wielded by someone, an Operations roll (which might be Drive for cars, or OCV for a gun) makes a lot of sense for a breakout roll. For devices that aren't being used, i.e. control isn't resisted...I would just let him have it, given that you're talking about devices with no mind. The character might have to succeed in an operations roll with increasing penalties over longer durations. Again, if Concentration is required, this become less important.

 

 

Note that what you choose for these parameters dramatically affects what kind of things the power is most useful on...it's pretty easy to make Tanks difficult to control and electric razors easy, but it's done intentionally.

 

As with any such power, the player of this character must be willing to reevaluate its costs based on how powerful it is in gameplay.

 

(also...you need to decide if "a mech" counts as a single device, or if the ejection seat button is a separate device, or if it is part of the mech but can be targetted with a called shot....but you'd need to do that with any power of this sort.)