The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

[SteveZilla]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

A Fixed Location doesn't have to be immovable - it could be a living creature, a particular airplane seat, or the hex two hexes behind the Teleporter, but example - but it must be a physical location and can never change.

 

A coin is not a physical location. "A particular airplane seat" is part of a location -- the vehicle. A living creature is allowed to be "a physical location" only because, of all the examples, it has will of it's own. As Steve L. explained:

 

The example “mobile†Fixed Locations are relatively beyond the character’s control. An airplane seat' date=' for example, may be mobile, but it’s not under the character’s direct control. The disks you describe, OTOH, are under the character’s direct control, so they should be Floating Fixed Locations.[/quote']

 

Trying to get around the unchangeability issue inherent with Fixed Locations by defining it as a very small, very concealable, very easily controlled, very easily relocated object is breaking the rules.

 

Just live with the fact that Teleporters can't buy scads of Fixed Locations for a pittance and then use them in a way that makes them Floating Locations. Unless you house rule it so that one can. If you make a house rule to that effect, I have no problem with that. It's your game; you can create whatever house rules you desire there.

 

No. The Fixed Location remains completely outside the character's control. It is always the coin and can never be changed.

 

That's a dodge. Say for the sake of discussion it is "always the coin and can never be changed". That matters as much as spit in the wind because the character can move the coin around with impunity.

 

The answer is still no. There is no "complete control" here. He might has some control over where the coin is' date=' but the fact is the coin is his Fixed Location, not where he wants to put it. That can never be changed.[/quote']

 

I reiterate:

but it must be a physical location and can never change.

 

A coin is not a physical location.

 

The character has about as much control over the coin as he does over a living person' date=' an airline seat, etc.[/quote']

 

Oh, really? I can pick a coin up, and put it in my pocket. I can go someplace of my choosing and easily place the coin there, possibly concealing it as well.

 

Try doing that with an airplane.

 

The only way to accomplish this is by buying the Location as a Fixed Location defined as a mobile object.

 

I reiterate:

but it must be a physical location and can never change.

 

A coin is not a physical location.

 

Physical Manifestation could be interesting' date=' but to me that just puts some representation at the Floating Location that someone else can destroy (like with any Power with Physical Manifestation).[/quote']

 

The problems with Physical Manifestation are that all the character has to do to “repair†the “object†is restart the power, and the Manifestation is only present while the power is active.

[SteveZilla]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

Sorry for not being clear. I was referring to the part of the post that said:

 

...and if he does so can control where that person, airplane seat, etc. will be when he needs it.

 

The book says no such thing.

 

The book need not state such an obvious thing. People and airplane seats are mobile; that should say enough.

 

Oh, please. I was not referring to the mobility of a person or airplane seat, I was referring to the part: "can control where __________ will be when he needs it."

 

So if I designate a Fixed Location of mine as Seat 13A on Delta Airlines airplane N473VR (flight numbers change, an airplane’s N-number is constant), I can have that airplane be in my apartment hallway when I need it?

 

A character's Teleport Locations are not at his beck and call.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

We've got spinoff threads for this? Where?

we don't.. this thread isn't a monster yet....

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

A coin is not a physical location. "A particular airplane seat" is part of a location -- the vehicle. A living creature is allowed to be "a physical location" only because, of all the examples, it has will of it's own. As Steve L. explained:

 

 

 

Trying to get around the unchangeability issue inherent with Fixed Locations by defining it as a very small, very concealable, very easily controlled, very easily relocated object is breaking the rules.

 

Just live with the fact that Teleporters can't buy scads of Fixed Locations for a pittance and then use them in a way that makes them Floating Locations. Unless you house rule it so that one can. If you make a house rule to that effect, I have no problem with that. It's your game; you can create whatever house rules you desire there.

As I originally said, Steve Long's interpretation of his own rule is what I disagree with. Since Mr. Long has made a ruling on the issue and the FAQ and Questions Board are considered to be official rules, I have no choice to make my interpretation a house rule. But I stand by it. Steve Long is wrong in my opinion, and as far as I'm concerned that's all that matters.

 

That's a dodge. Say for the sake of discussion it is "always the coin and can never be changed". That matters as much as spit in the wind because the character can move the coin around with impunity.

As I've stated repeatedly, I disagree with this. The character cannot move the coin around with impunity because it can be stolen from him. More importantly, once placed (which is the only way it becomes useful), the character has no control over what happens to it.

 

Oh, really? I can pick a coin up, and put it in my pocket. I can go someplace of my choosing and easily place the coin there, possibly concealing it as well.

 

Try doing that with an airplane.

And once placed, try having someone sneak off with the airplane. Once placed where you want it, it's just as hard to for someone else to take it from there. Same thing with the coin. It's easy to place, and just as easily removed by someone other than the character.

 

Oh, please. I was not referring to the mobility of a person or airplane seat, I was referring to the part: "can control where __________ will be when he needs it."

 

So if I designate a Fixed Location of mine as Seat 13A on Delta Airlines airplane N473VR (flight numbers change, an airplane’s N-number is constant), I can have that airplane be in my apartment hallway when I need it?

 

A character's Teleport Locations are not at his beck and call.

Agreed. What we seem to be disagreeing on is how much control a character has over smaller objects compared to larger objects (like between a coin and an airline seat). To me there is no difference in game terms. The larger objects comes with a number of inherent advantages and limitations, and so does the coin. You seem to think otherwise.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

we don't.. this thread isn't a monster yet....

 

Well, I can still hope.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

SteveZilla,

 

I'm not sure if this will help you understand my point of view on this (I'm not really trying to convince you about a right vs. wrong here, which has never really been my purpose), but the primary part of why I disagree with Steve Long's ruling has to do with how Foci work, or are supposed to work. To me, if Power is bought with the Focus Limitation, the character must have the Focus in his possession for him to use the Power. If the Focus isn't in his possession, he can't use the Power. That's how Focus is described in the rules and how every example of a published Character/Power that uses Foci is used. The idea of a Power only working if the character doesn't have his Focus in his possession is ridiculous. To allow such a thing in any case is to imply that I can by other Powers as working in a similar way, which just doesn't work.

 

In my thinking of this (which I did way back in 4th Edition when I created a villain with an ability very similar to the one Samaraiko describes), I considered the options. I could ad hoc some method involving Floating Locations with Limitations, or I could rule that Fixed Locations could be set to inanimate objects. Since there was already precident for setting Fixed Locations to inanimate objects, I chose that method, but only after weighing the possible pros and cons concerning it (which I have attempted to detail for you).

 

Then I play tested it using my villain. I figured if it ended up not working out they way I had thought, it was only a villain who was built on however many points I needed him to have anyway, so no harm done. As it happened, it worked wonderfly in play. The villain had five coins which he had infused with his essense, enabling him to teleport to any of them instantly. He usually gave these to other villians he worked with, and occasionally made attempts to plant one in a safe place for an escape route, or inside a supposedly secure location so he could more easily sneak inside later. Throughout the game, he ended up losing control of most of them. One was captured when a teammate carrying one was captured (and without knowing what happened to the coin he was more than hesitant in trying to reclaim it right away). Another was found by a hear at the crime scene and pocketed, and the villain never recovered it. He ended up teleporting to it in hopes that it just got picked up by some bystandard he could rough up and take it from, but it turned out it was in the coin tray of the hero brick's truck. All hell broke lose when the villain appear in the seat next to her and though he (barely) escaped, he never did get his coin back.

 

I figured this was a fairly successful play testing and decided to allow it for PC use. Something similar was used that did involve Foci, but it was as I described my expectations of Foci working above. Every character in the team had a Radio and Teleport Power bought through a Focus that included Fixed Location to all the other character's Radio/Teleport Foci. This never really got effectively play tested though, as that campaign ended shortly after everyone got this ability.

[SteveZilla]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

Well' date=' I can still hope. [/quote']

 

Dust Raven and I are trying our hardest!

[SteveZilla]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

As I originally said' date=' Steve Long's interpretation of his own rule is what I disagree with. Since Mr. Long has made a ruling on the issue and the FAQ and Questions Board are considered to be official rules, I have no choice to make my interpretation a house rule. But I stand by it. Steve Long is wrong in my opinion, and as far as I'm concerned that's all that matters.[/quote']

 

Okay. I can respect a house rule (even if I don't agree with it). And just for the record, I am not one of those people who think that Steve Long is right 100% of the time and that 5re is a holy book.

 

There are a few reasons why I have been so immoveable on this (other than innate stubbornness ). The first was that I found no problem with the way Teleport is written. The second is that I consider the rulebook (and Steve Long) to be "disinterested third parties" to any particluar disagreement. The third is that an ability's cost should generally be commensurate to it's utility/usefullness. And IMO, a location that can be defined as an easily moved object is getting more utility out of it than 1 point should allow.

 

Same thing with the coin. It's easy to place' date=' and just as easily removed by someone other than the character.[/quote']

 

But that is if they know what to look for. A coin can be hidden much more easily than an airplane.

 

What we seem to be disagreeing on is how much control a character has over smaller objects compared to larger objects (like between a coin and an airline seat).

 

I think that is the crux of the discussion as well.

 

To me there is no difference in game terms. The larger objects comes with a number of inherent advantages and limitations' date=' and so does the coin. You seem to think otherwise.[/quote']

 

That's correct. Being that both are objects that are not bolted down or part of a building, both can be moved. The difference I see is that the airplane is usually not moved by the character, where the coin usually is. The coin can be hidden so that it becomes virtually impossible for anyone else to move it. And any kind of location, regardless of where it is set or how it is bought, can be destroyed, given enough TNT. So the destructability of a Location IMO factors itself out.

 

I'm not sure if you were agreeing with my remark about the Delta Airlines airplane, or about the statement following it. Just in case you were agreeing with the airplane remark, I'll expound.

 

My remark about the airplane (seat) being available when I need it was meant to show that: 1. It cannot be within range of my teleport 24-7, and: 2. It might not fit were I want it to be. Just because I designate a Location as X deosn't mean I become X's master. The pilots of the airplane still fly the plane I can teleport to, not my character. And those pilots are still anserable to the company, not my character.

 

But I think we've beaten this dead horse to a pulp by now. I believe that I will not be able to sway you, and you've probably come to the same conclusion about me. I can continue if you want, or we can this thread.

 

Anyone want some fresh Horse Pulp?

 

And I'm sorry to hear that the campaign folded.

[SteveZilla]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

Unreal. All I did was ask a single stupid question and THIS comes out of it. I'm not sure if I should be flattered or afraid.

 

Almost no question is stupid. And be afraid, be very afraid.

 

The funny thing is' date=' I started another conversation like this between myself and John about another power Midnight might try her hand at (an active, offense-based, screw-over-the-other-mentalists power).[/quote']

 

Oh, we like those kinds of powers -- unless we're the mentalist.

 

Let me know what the power is, okay?

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

Anyone want some fresh Horse Pulp?

 

Actually, just to anally point something out... The airplane or seat therein may easily be placed by the character himself. It could be his personal airplane after all. His airplane could also be a lightweight, small and easily portable. Instead of an airplane seat, it could also be say a motorcycle. Of course, this may just be me here. Your opinion may be different. I have no idea where you'd draw the line between "physical location" and "object".

 

And I'm sorry to hear that the campaign folded.

It was a long time ago, and campaigns never last forever.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

 

Actually, just to anally point something out... The airplane or seat therein may easily be placed by the character himself. It could be his personal airplane after all. His airplane could also be a lightweight, small and easily portable. Instead of an airplane seat, it could also be say a motorcycle. Of course, this may just be me here. Your opinion may be different. I have no idea where you'd draw the line between "physical location" and "object".

Even if it were a particular seat on a commercial flight, someone might be able to unbolt the seat and hang it on a barely adequate string over an active volcano or something, though I guess it depends on whether the Location is specifically defined as the seat or the seat's position on the airplane.

 

BTW, what happens if someone is already sitting in the seat? I see the potential for accusations of harassment at the least....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

I haven't re-read the entire thread but I've been checking in every couple of days at least, so apologies if I am repeating someone else. I also don't have my 5er handy to check the 'official rulings' on this matter either. However, that won't stop me from posting my silly opinion on the matter.

 

I think that 1 point Fixed Locations should only be allowed for places. If that 'place' is first defined as row 11 seat 4 on flight 335 and that seat is later removed from that plane then that 'place' no longer exists and those points spent are gone just like a focus with the Independent Limitation.

 

If the player wants to limit a Teleport Location to an item he should use Floating and then apply the appropriate focus and/or physical manifestation limitations.

 

It's not that different than the relationship of Trump Sketches vs. Full Trumps from the Amber novels. The sketch is simple, cheap and fragile. The completed Trump is far more flexible. The difference from HERO Teleport Locations is an investment in time instead of xp but are the 2 really that different?

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

[quote=Hyper-Man

It's not that different than the relationship of Trump Sketches vs. Full Trumps from the Amber novels. The sketch is simple, cheap and fragile. The completed Trump is far more flexible. The difference from HERO Teleport Locations is an investment in time instead of xp but are the 2 really that different?

 

The Trump analogy isn't that accurate. Sketeches and completed Trumps operate identically excapt that a sketch loses its power very quickly, while a completed Trump of permanent. In either case, you can only create a sketch or Trump of a specific person or a specific place. Only these things are unique enough for the magic to work. Also in either case, you need not be anywhere near the person or place to create the art.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

.... Also in either case' date=' you need not be anywhere near the person or place to create the art.[/quote']

 

But you do need at least to have seen the person or place in person at some time. If the person or place has changed too much due to the passing of time from the sketcher's memory then it may not work at all.

 

I didn't say it was a 1 to 1 relationship but it does have some parallels to the current discussion.

[SteveZilla]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

Actually' date=' just to anally point something out... The airplane or seat therein may easily be placed by the character himself. It could be his personal airplane after all. His airplane could also be a lightweight, small and easily portable. Instead of an airplane seat, it could also be say a motorcycle. Of course, this may just be me here. Your opinion may be different. I have no idea where you'd draw the line between "physical location" and "object".[/quote']

 

True, the seat could be in his personal vehicle (be it car, plane, train, sub, or bike). I would draw the line at the size of a person. So a full-sized motorcycle is about the smallest I would allow as a Fixed Location. And "an airplane seat" to me means the location in the airplane, and is not the same thing as "a seat from an airplane" (something I'd nix).

[SteveZilla]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

But you do need at least to have seen the person or place in person at some time. If the person or place has changed too much due to the passing of time from the sketcher's memory then it may not work at all.

 

I didn't say it was a 1 to 1 relationship but it does have some parallels to the current discussion.

 

I've read both Amber series, though it was a long time ago. From the descriptions provided, it sounds like the Trump Sketches are Floating Locations with "Must Sketch the Location first (-1)" and "Extra Time(1 Turn; -?)"

 

Full Trumps sound exactly like Floating Locations - OAF(-1). Which is exactly how Dust Raven views Locations bought as a Focus. The user must possess the Focus (Full Trump; -1) to be able to transport to that location.

 

But such a game would also either need a house rule to allow Transdimensional to be bought on Teleportation, or for locations to be bought for EDM.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

I've read both Amber series, though it was a long time ago. From the descriptions provided, it sounds like the Trump Sketches are Floating Locations with "Must Sketch the Location first (-1)" and "Extra Time(1 Turn; -?)"

 

Full Trumps sound exactly like Floating Locations - OAF(-1). Which is exactly how Dust Raven views Locations bought as a Focus. The user must possess the Focus (Full Trump; -1) to be able to transport to that location.

 

But such a game would also either need a house rule to allow Transdimensional to be bought on Teleportation, or for locations to be bought for EDM.

 

Actually, there is no equivilant Power, or combination of Powers, in Hero System that accurately modles what Trump art does. There are some that come close, close enough that for some it doesn't matter and SFX takes over for the rest. But Floating and Fixed Locations are not those mechanics. For Floating Locations, you cannot set one unless you are there at the time. You cannot examine two dozen locations for a Turn each and then later decice which one you set as the Location without physically going back to it and examining it again.

 

The closest Powers that model what Trumps to is Clairsentience and Mind Scan (and of course Teleport, which uses the above two powers to lock on to the target location).

 

But this is a weird thread hijack. Then again...

 

Hey, Samuraiko! Do you think Midnight would be interested in something that acted like a Trump Deck from Amber?

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

You cannot examine two dozen locations for a Turn each and then later decice which one you set as the Location without physically going back to it and examining it again.

Sure you can. It just takes two dozen Floating Locations.

[SteveZilla]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

Actually, there is no equivilant Power, or combination of Powers, in Hero System that accurately modles what Trump art does. There are some that come close, close enough that for some it doesn't matter and SFX takes over for the rest. But Floating and Fixed Locations are not those mechanics. For Floating Locations, you cannot set one unless you are there at the time. You cannot examine two dozen locations for a Turn each and then later decice which one you set as the Location without physically going back to it and examining it again.

 

The closest Powers that model what Trumps to is Clairsentience and Mind Scan (and of course Teleport, which uses the above two powers to lock on to the target location).

 

But this is a weird thread hijack. Then again...

 

Hey, Samuraiko! Do you think Midnight would be interested in something that acted like a Trump Deck from Amber?

 

As Presto poined out, it can be done. The character has to "pre-set" his Locations. Then later on, he picks which location he sketches. Once he has sketched that location, he could 'port to it. I don't recall if they could sketch a place they had never been to and have it work. But since all the characters were effectively unaging, they've been around to earn enough XPs for an ungodly number of Locations.

 

Or, they could have the naked Advantages Safe Blind Teleport, Position Shift, and No Velocity, with the Limitation that the place must be sketched first.

 

The problem is, with extra-planar teleports, how do we determine what the "range" is? This is why, IMO, Teleportation is not the power of choice for the Trumps -- though it could be in a Multipower with EDM, for use when the place is on the same plane as the character. Or an Adder/Advantage for EDM that lets it function as Teleportation.

 

I did recall that the trumps were more than just transportation. I was just focusing on the transportation part of what they did, since the rest was more or less irrelevant to this discussion. But to model the communincation, I think it would likely be Telepathy (how the lock-on/line-of-sight is achieved is another matter).

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

As Presto poined out, it can be done. The character has to "pre-set" his Locations. Then later on, he picks which location he sketches. Once he has sketched that location, he could 'port to it. I don't recall if they could sketch a place they had never been to and have it work. But since all the characters were effectively unaging, they've been around to earn enough XPs for an ungodly number of Locations.

 

Or, they could have the naked Advantages Safe Blind Teleport, Position Shift, and No Velocity, with the Limitation that the place must be sketched first.

 

The problem is, with extra-planar teleports, how do we determine what the "range" is? This is why, IMO, Teleportation is not the power of choice for the Trumps -- though it could be in a Multipower with EDM, for use when the place is on the same plane as the character. Or an Adder/Advantage for EDM that lets it function as Teleportation.

 

I did recall that the trumps were more than just transportation. I was just focusing on the transportation part of what they did, since the rest was more or less irrelevant to this discussion. But to model the communincation, I think it would likely be Telepathy (how the lock-on/line-of-sight is achieved is another matter).

 

Well, I suppose there's always a way to do anything in Hero. I still say it's difficult and requires a lot of leeway in how Trump Artistry would be done. RE: Drawning never seen before locations: Brand drew a working Trump of Martin having never met him before based only on descriptions he'd heard from Martin's mother.

[CBikle]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

The problem is' date=' with extra-planar teleports, how do we determine what the "range" is? This is why, IMO, Teleportation is not the power of choice for the Trumps -- though it could be in a Multipower with EDM, for use when the place is on the same plane as the character. [/quote']

 

I think that's it. I'd give the MP a +0 advantage that the multipower automatically defaults to whichever slot is appropriate for the location (ie: if the target is across the world, the megascale t-port kicks in; if the target is in Asgard, the E-D transport power kicks in.)

[SteveZilla]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

Well' date=' I suppose there's [i']always[/i] a way to do anything in Hero. I still say it's difficult and requires a lot of leeway in how Trump Artistry would be done. RE: Drawning never seen before locations: Brand drew a working Trump of Martin having never met him before based only on descriptions he'd heard from Martin's mother.

 

Well, almost always. I didn't remember that Brand did that.

 

I have often said that while it's possible to model a whole lot of stuff with Hero, there are some things that don't translate well -- or at all -- into a game.

[Samuraiko]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

And it's still going... my brain is getting crossed trying to make sense of it all, though.

 

BTW, the power I was working on was basically creating a mental attack that went along the lines of...

 

"I hit him with a mental attack-"

"Ha, foolish hero, you can't hurt me, I have Mental Defenses!"

"Correction..."

*WHAM*

"You HAD Mental Defenses..."

 

And then promptly play his brain like a harp.

 

However, in typical me fashion, I came up with a new character concept (on the off chance that Midnight gets killed going head-to-head with a DEMON Morbane who's currently possessing the body of the most powerful telepath on the planet), and am having good fun creating her powers. A theme-based character, but a cool one...

 

If I could just finish the thing...

 

Michelle

aka

Samuraiko

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

And it's still going... my brain is getting crossed trying to make sense of it all, though.

 

BTW, the power I was working on was basically creating a mental attack that went along the lines of...

 

"I hit him with a mental attack-"

"Ha, foolish hero, you can't hurt me, I have Mental Defenses!"

"Correction..."

*WHAM*

"You HAD Mental Defenses..."

 

And then promptly play his brain like a harp.

Crippling Darkness: Drain Mental Defense 4d6, BOECV (+1/2); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) 22 points in your EC. [note: since Power Defense is equally common as Mental Defense, BOECV is worth +1/2 rather than +1]

 

I still suggest the following instead:

 

Fractured Shadows: Find Weakness 16- with Mental Powers; Costs END (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) 16 points in your EC.

 

This still requires an attack action and can never really reduce a target's Mental Defense to 0, but it isn't stopped by Mental Defense either.

 

However, in typical me fashion, I came up with a new character concept (on the off chance that Midnight gets killed going head-to-head with a DEMON Morbane who's currently possessing the body of the most powerful telepath on the planet), and am having good fun creating her powers. A theme-based character, but a cool one...

 

I sure hope you're not planning on having Midnight die... that would suck. I can arrange if you'd like though.

[SteveZilla]

Re: The Use of a Focus for Teleportation...?

 

Crippling Darkness: Drain Mental Defense 4d6' date=' BOECV (+1/2); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) 22 points in your EC. [note: since Power Defense is equally common as Mental Defense, BOECV is worth +1/2 rather than +1']

 

That sounds like you're mixing parts of AVLD into BOECV -- the part about equally common defenses. BOECV doesn't normally have that option, though it does have the option of if the target can choose either the power's standard defense or mental defense, the BOECV is worth 1/4 less. And nobody forget that it's still a no range power!

 

I still suggest the following instead:

 

Fractured Shadows: Find Weakness 16- with Mental Powers; Costs END (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) 16 points in your EC.

 

This still requires an attack action and can never really reduce a target's Mental Defense to 0, but it isn't stopped by Mental Defense either.

 

True, and a high mental defense (24 or more) will make the drain ineffective. If she goes the Find Weakness route, she can use

this build, with GM approval, of course.