Magic and Mechanics, to you

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Which I firmly think E. Gary Gygax was taking when he came up with the spell system for DnD. I really came in with ADnD (god I loved those books)' date=' and while the components were... dramatically apropo, that whole section read like a chuckling shout-out to high school (or possibly college) chemistry and physics. Amber rod and cat's fur for a lightning bolt? Come on now.[/quote']

 

I don't know if that sort of thing was in the Dying Earth novels that Gygax cribbed his magic system from, but there are real life mythologies that have similar principles and form the basic concept of 'material components'. Concepts like Like Affects Like, Once A Part Of Something Always A Part Of Something (see: Voodoo Dolls), that sort of thing.

 

So, there was some real-world basis for the material component theory. I just don't happen to like it because I don't want to deal with the bookkeeping. 3rd Edition made me very happy when they just said 'buy a spell component pouch, so long as it's on you, you're good for the cheap stuff'.

[Old Man]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

... there are real life mythologies that have similar principles and form the basic concept of 'material components'. Concepts like Like Affects Like' date=' Once A Part Of Something Always A Part Of Something (see: Voodoo Dolls), that sort of thing.[/quote']

 

Those are the Law of Sympathy and the Law of Contagion, respectively. Frequently in 'real life' spellcasting, both are invoked, which is why the voodoo doll is constructed to have the same shape as the victim, and should contain something that came from/off the victim.

 

Or so I hear.

[Lucius]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Yes' date=' I know. However, I prefer 'gesture, incant, effect' to 'gesture, incant, throw animal feces, effect'. I don't get much into symbolism.[/quote']

 

Then I have to wonder: Why even bother with the gestures and incantations?

 

Without symbolism, there is no magick.

 

Those are the Law of Sympathy and the Law of Contagion, respectively. Frequently in 'real life' spellcasting, both are invoked, which is why the voodoo doll is constructed to have the same shape as the victim, and should contain something that came from/off the victim.

 

Or so I hear.

 

Not necessarily “victim.†The techniques for establishing a link are pretty much the same, regardless of what you intend to use the link for.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests it’s probably time to review Bonewitts anyway…

[Old Man]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

What better reason to use such a link than to hurt my enemies severely and without fear of repercussion?

 

Actually I'd probably get carried away. Guests to my place would be like, "Dude, what's with all the dolls?" and I'd say "Uh... um... that's my Beanie Baby collection."

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

3rd Edition made me very happy when they just said 'buy a spell component pouch' date=' so long as it's on you, you're good for the cheap stuff'.[/quote']

That's the way we always played it. The only time you ever had to worry about specifics was if you didn't have your pouch...then you'd have to find some bat poop or whatever...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

What better reason to use such a link than to hurt my enemies severely and without fear of repercussion?

 

Actually I'd probably get carried away. Guests to my place would be like, "Dude, what's with all the dolls?" and I'd say "Uh... um... that's my Beanie Baby collection."

"But how come that one looks like my mommy?"

[Curufea]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Then I have to wonder: Why even bother with the gestures and incantations?

 

Without symbolism, there is no magick.

Magic without gestures and incantations is psionics

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I get very specific about different ways to model "material components" and other objects assoicated w/ Magic use here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/GeneralSpellRestrictions.shtml#Material%20Components%20and%20Physical%20Objects

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Magic without gestures and incantations is psionics

 

What he said.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I was going to edit my previous post, but the board won't let me so anyway ...

 

To clarify, to me magic is an external power source, psionics is internal. Magic is like most comic books describe cosmic energy; an ambient field of energy (mana, whatever) that pervades the entire universe. It's basically vibration-sensitive; the correct motions (gestures) and sounds (incantations) in the correct combination results in altering the energy field to channel through you and do, to use the technical term, 'stuff'. I can understand the logic of the Sympathy/Contagion principles for aiding a related effect; I just don't like the visuals of the stately, wise wizard of old flinging bat turds or (in the case of D&D's Tasha's Hideous Laughter), a pie at a target. It's purely an aesthetic issue for me (I basically threw out the meaninless components in D&D; everybody gets Eschew Materials gratis).

 

So, I pretty well stick to Gestures, Incantations, INT-Based Skill Roll, and any 'effect-based' limitations ('not in rain/water' for fire spells, etc.). They still cost END from

 

Psionics is internal; you don't draw on the power of the universe, your own personal powers tell the universe to sit down, shut up, and do as you say ("Don't MAKE me turn this galactic ascension around!"). Pretty much stick to an EGO-based skill roll and Concentration.

 

Divine Magic is something I don't particularly care about, since I never run games where gods manifest in anything resembling a direct manner and, most of the time, they're either known to not exist, or their existence cannot be proven conclusively one way or the other (so it's actually 'faith', not 'knowledge' of the divine).

[Kristopher]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

To me, in a setting with magic, it's a matter of power and will. Most people need rules and rote and complicated formulae and materials or devices to focus that will. Some don't.

[OddHat]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

In my settings I view magic as a mix of making deals with spirits (or ghosts, or gods, or whatever), drawing on personal spiritual powers, and drawing on the spiritual power locked inside objects and substances. "Psionics" concentrates on use of thoses inner spiritual powers, as does Chi based martial arts. Chi, Pionics and magic are different ways of visualizing the same forces, and practitioners of any of these arts can accomplish more or less the same effects (though with different special effects).

[Eosin]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I was going to edit my previous post, but the board won't let me so anyway ...

 

To clarify, to me magic is an external power source, psionics is internal. Magic is like most comic books describe cosmic energy; an ambient field of energy (mana, whatever) that pervades the entire universe. It's basically vibration-sensitive; the correct motions (gestures) and sounds (incantations) in the correct combination results in altering the energy field to channel through you and do, to use the technical term, 'stuff'. I can understand the logic of the Sympathy/Contagion principles for aiding a related effect; I just don't like the visuals of the stately, wise wizard of old flinging bat turds or (in the case of D&D's Tasha's Hideous Laughter), a pie at a target. It's purely an aesthetic issue for me (I basically threw out the meaninless components in D&D; everybody gets Eschew Materials gratis).

 

So, I pretty well stick to Gestures, Incantations, INT-Based Skill Roll, and any 'effect-based' limitations ('not in rain/water' for fire spells, etc.). They still cost END from

 

Psionics is internal; you don't draw on the power of the universe, your own personal powers tell the universe to sit down, shut up, and do as you say ("Don't MAKE me turn this galactic ascension around!"). Pretty much stick to an EGO-based skill roll and Concentration.

 

 

I think you are being to absolute in your definition and it certianly doesn't match genre. I can think of several fantasy series with magic that do not meet your predefined criteria.

 

Generally, I think it is safe to say that the majority of magic comes from an external source but that is about as far as you get with solid definitions and even for that there are exceptions for specific internally described systems of magic that mix internal power and ritual (Camber being the main offender here).

 

Off the top off my head the Wheel of Time and LOTR both have magic systems that do not use gestures and incantations (LOTR goes both ways).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I think you are being to absolute in your definition and it certianly doesn't match genre. I can think of several fantasy series with magic that do not meet your predefined criteria.

 

Generally, I think it is safe to say that the majority of magic comes from an external source but that is about as far as you get with solid definitions and even for that there are exceptions for specific internally described systems of magic that mix internal power and ritual (Camber being the main offender here).

 

Off the top off my head the Wheel of Time and LOTR both have magic systems that do not use gestures and incantations (LOTR goes both ways).

 

Here's the thing ... I've never read a fantasy novel. I don't really care what famous author A or famous author B have in their worlds. What a fantasy series does, or doesn't do, doesn't matter unless I'm saying 'we're running this game in Middle Earth' or 'This is a Wheel of Time game', for instance, which is probably never gonna happen.

 

My world, my magic, my rules.

[Cantriped]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Well, that’s all well and good, but its not a very good way to debate the validity of your views. Being comparable to the term "God is all powerful because the bible said so" (well of course it would, god supposedly directly influenced those who wrote it)

Now, the crux of Eosin's argument IMHO was not that your particular views on magic are wrong, simply that he did not agree because where yours views on magic are rooted more in Comic conceptions, his are rooted in literature.

Both have their pros and cons that are derived from the role they play, after all "Form follows Function".

Most literature [that I have read] tends to involve limited magic systems with very specific flavor because that allows the authors to better predict the effects that the ability would realistically have on the ecology and demographics of the populace it is introduced into. One factor also present is that fewer of the characters are inherently magical, though I'm sure there are exceptions, I can only speak from my somewhat limited experience.

Where as my limited exposure to Comic/Manga Magic tends to be more open-ended and powerful; usually with less consideration taken in how that kind of power would realistically affect the development of a culture. Also more of the actual characters tend to be magically inclined, even where magic-users are a small demographic.

 

Personally, being vain as I am, I prefer magic systems that have a strong cinematic element, and fall closer to the High/Epic fantasy definition then the Low/Epic Fantasy. I just eat up those Epic magical and pseudo magical battles you sometimes see in Anime and manga.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Well, that’s all well and good, but its not a very good way to debate the validity of your views. Being comparable to the term "God is all powerful because the bible said so" (well of course it would, god supposedly directly influenced those who wrote it)

Now, the crux of Eosin's argument IMHO was not that your particular views on magic are wrong, simply that he did not agree because where yours views on magic are rooted more in Comic conceptions, his are rooted in literature.

Both have their pros and cons that are derived from the role they play, after all "Form follows Function".

Most literature [that I have read] tends to involve limited magic systems with very specific flavor because that allows the authors to better predict the effects that the ability would realistically have on the ecology and demographics of the populace it is introduced into. One factor also present is that fewer of the characters are inherently magical, though I'm sure there are exceptions, I can only speak from my somewhat limited experience.

Where as my limited exposure to Comic/Manga Magic tends to be more open-ended and powerful; usually with less consideration taken in how that kind of power would realistically affect the development of a culture. Also more of the actual characters tend to be magically inclined, even where magic-users are a small demographic.

 

Personally, being vain as I am, I prefer magic systems that have a strong cinematic element, and fall closer to the High/Epic fantasy definition then the Low/Epic Fantasy. I just eat up those Epic magical and pseudo magical battles you sometimes see in Anime and manga.

 

True, given that I have a collection of a couple of hundred comic books and zero novels (my wife is the opposite). For the record, I specifically mean American Superhero Comic Books. (I actually *prefer* the 'you have powers, they're just mystical in origin rather than mutations or tech', no inherent limitations, but that doesn't really work for fantasy games, just Supermages).

 

And if my magic system is contrary to Anime and Manga ... I'm quite, quite good with that.

[Kristopher]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

I use either an EC or no frameworks whatsoever. (I prefer the EC as it encourages players to make either mages or mundanes, not characters who know just one or two powerful spells.)

 

For me what makes Hero magic 'feel' like magic is the limitations, so I pile them on there. -2 is required out of incantations, gestures, concentrate, focus, extra time, rsr and side effect--but really, if you're not limiting the spell to -4 or -5 you're making a Champions superhero, not a wizard.

 

Depends on the setting, doesn't it?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Here's the thing ... I've never read a fantasy novel. I don't really care what famous author A or famous author B have in their worlds. What a fantasy series does, or doesn't do, doesn't matter unless I'm saying 'we're running this game in Middle Earth' or 'This is a Wheel of Time game', for instance, which is probably never gonna happen.

 

My world, my magic, my rules.

So, if I were playing in one of your games, and I WANTED to throw bat poop while casting a spell, could I?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

So' date=' if I were playing in one of your games, and I WANTED to throw bat poop while casting a spell, could I?[/quote']

 

You could, but it would be entirely voluntary on your part (both you as the player and you as the character), and everybody would look at you like you were, shall we say, mentally deficient.

 

"That's disgusting. Why the $*@( are you *doing* that??!!"

[Eosin]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Here's the thing ... I've never read a fantasy novel.

 

Wow. Do you run a fantasy game? It would just seem wierd to me if you did (not wrong, just odd). I am trying to remember all the stuff you don't do or like from your posts but cannot remember if you enjoyed fantasy movies.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Here's the thing ... I've never read a fantasy novel.

Are you serious?! What are you doing posting to this board then?

 

 

Seriously, though. If that is true, you are missing out on a LOT. Whether or not you use any author's particular ideas in your games, there is so much to experience. Pick up the Lord of the Rings! Pick up some Barbara Hambley, or some George R.R. Martin or something. I seriously doubt you will regret it after giving it a chance.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Are you serious?! What are you doing posting to this board then?

 

 

Seriously, though. If that is true, you are missing out on a LOT. Whether or not you use any author's particular ideas in your games, there is so much to experience. Pick up the Lord of the Rings! Pick up some Barbara Hambley, or some George R.R. Martin or something. I seriously doubt you will regret it after giving it a chance.

 

Because I sometimes run Fantasy HERO (and D&D). That is the name of the board, not 'Fantasy Literature', after all.

 

I read about 20 pages of Lord of the Rings, and simply found it too boring to continue with; I found the Fellowship movie dull as well and never bothered with the other two.

 

Of course, that's why I game instead of read; I make my own stuff instead of reading someone else's, and I absolutely HATE it when someone says 'nice steal' when I've never READ THE THING THEY CLAIM I'M STEALING FROM.

[Curufea]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Meh.

I have friends that hate the books, and friends that hate the movies - they still like playiing fantasy roleplaying games. Even D&D.

Roleplaying's a separate media type and therefore doesn't necessary overlap with literature or movies.

 

I've not come across acussations of stealing in games, mainly because the other media I look at I use for inspiration. It gives me a chance to "what if?". Such as "What if the Tyranids from 40k invaded a high magic, high fantasy world?"

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

Meh.

I have friends that hate the books, and friends that hate the movies - they still like playiing fantasy roleplaying games. Even D&D.

Roleplaying's a separate media type and therefore doesn't necessary overlap with literature or movies.

 

I've not come across acussations of stealing in games, mainly because the other media I look at I use for inspiration. It gives me a chance to "what if?". Such as "What if the Tyranids from 40k invaded a high magic, high fantasy world?"

 

For some reason, I frequently run afoul of ...

 

"I was thinking about a world where blah, blah, blah ..."

"Oh, like Author B. Writer's Blah of Blah series."

"Never heard of it."

[oryanfactor]

Re: Magic and Mechanics, to you

 

My background in magic and fantasy lit runs the gamut, being a huge comic book fan (both Marvel and DC), but also enjoying Lord of the Rings, Xanth and way too many movies and TV shows to relate here.

 

On "stealing" for game plots, it's done all the time, and really, just about everything under the sun has "been done" somewhere. If you think about it, you can find the roots of most sci-fi/fantasy/horror started somewhere else. The 4400 is in a way, related to the Wild Cards series of books, which owes itself to the DC and Marvel Universes, which harken back to Superman, which in turn goes back to Phillip Wyeth's The Gladiator or even Popeye. So, in short, so long as you're doing enough of a mix and match, don't worry about stealing too much. In fact, last night, I was reading up on how the classic film Forbdden Planet is really Shakespere's The Tempest.

 

On "how I do magic", again, don't sweat it. With comic books especially, mix and match is the rule, so it should work even if a number of magic characters use magic in an incompatible way. Gandalf would sometimes whsper spells, sometimes use components, sometimes not. Zatanna speaks spells backwards, while Dr. Fate seems to channel some sort of Egyptian magic. Dr. Strange uses some personal (internal) magic and sometimes invokes cosmic mystical beings. Meanwhile, in Xanth, magic is inherant and simply is manifested by different beings according to gift.

 

The only time you need to use magic as a coherent, unified system is when the story itself directly touches opon a particular group of mages who all seem to follow the same system, such as the Homo Magi from DC or the Elves of Tolkien or even the Jedi, in a certain way. Because these characters are conceived as a "family", it may make more sense to have their work magic together.

 

In fact, unified magic systems is one thing that has put me off in RPG's, typically. D+D requires spell books, components, and the like, while Palladium relies on Ley Line systems. So, my advice is, have fun, write cool stories, and play the magic as your characters seem to use it, and allow the cosmology of magic to mature as the story progresses.

 

oryan