Countering the Speed Zone

[OddHat]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Is someone coming to your house' date=' holding a gun to your head, and forcing you to allow it in your game...? [/quote']

 

Damn!

 

*puts down gun*

 

*puts away map"

 

*grumbles*

[sbarron]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Might help' date=' but the trigger would need to be built with Transdimensional, enough Lightning Reflexes to go off on the Speedster's Dex, and enough Speed Zone Perception to detect the speedster. At that point, you're countering Speedzone with Speedzone.[/quote']Clearly the transdimensional and sense, but I don't see why the lightning reflexes. Using trgger, you've basically built a SZ land mine. A power with trigger that is set has already gone off, so I think the Dex would be irrelavent.

 

Yes, you're countering SZ with SZ. But other than high defenses, I don't see any other way to defend against it. And I'd be much more inclined to allow someone to build a device to defend against SZ than I would be to flat out buy the ability, or robots with the ability, to defend against it.

[shaunclinton]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

How about if you bought the Transdimensional advantage for your DCV.

 

Maybe a guy like Slade who can't move in the Speed Zone himself but can react fast enough to still have some defence against someone in the zone. Of course you still couldn't see him coming - however I'd be inclined to allow a simple transdimensional on sight allow someone outwith the zone see in.

 

Transdimensional damage shield also works.

 

Being extremely tough works as well.

 

My main thoughts about the Speed Zone involve aborting to it. If you abort to the Speed Zone when someone shoots at you is the bullet/blast/etc. suspended in the air on its way to you? What happens should you move aside or somesuch in the meantime? Some bizarre possibilities spring to mind!

[specks]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Is someone coming to your house, holding a gun to your head, and forcing you to allow it in your game...?

 

Point taken but at the same time some GM's will probably be ignorant about it, allow it without realizing the repurcussions and start pulling their hair out with a game breaking power like this

 

I'm just looking for a viable defense for the Speed Zone other than outright banning it. I know some players will look at this power, drool with anticipation and want to start using the this ASAP to some major head busting.

 

I hope this thread can shed some light on a good defense for a major offense

 

Just my $.02

[Manic Typist]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

AoE: Suppress Speed Zone. Always On.

[OddHat]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Point taken but at the same time some GM's will probably be ignorant about it, allow it without realizing the repurcussions and start pulling their hair out with a game breaking power like this

 

I'm just looking for a viable defense for the Speed Zone other than outright banning it. I know some players will look at this power, drool with anticipation and want to start using the this ASAP to some major head busting.

 

I hope this thread can shed some light on a good defense for a major offense

 

Just my $.02

 

It's an optional stop sign power, based on EDM together with Transdimensional attacks and only slightly less potentially abusive. It stacks onto the power set of Speed Bricks and Speed Martial Artists, already arguably the most optimized builds in HERO. Outright banning it is the best option if you don't want that level of power in PC hands.

 

After that, taking control of the character creation process, strictly limiting the offensive and defensive power of characters who have access to the speed zone while pumping up END costs becomes your best choice.

 

Coming up with individual effects to try to counter the power after you've already allowed the player to build as he pleased is going at the problem from the wrong direction.

[Wolf]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

My fix is just reading the source materials…. IE the flash… the villains are built to deal with his defenses, my favorite is Double Down, his power is cards that come from his body, filling the air around him… Strait on the cards are razor sharp, so moving at high speeds around them will work like a blender on a speedster… Even the flash has to slow down around him otherwise cutting himself to ribbons.

My variation on a theme: A villain who somehow has a field of diamond dust, which would drill holes into my PC’s speedsters.

 

Diamond Dust: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Transdimensional (Speed Zone; +1/2), Area Of Effect (21" Radius; +1), Armor Piercing (x2; +1) (270 Active Points); Only VS. someone in the Speed Zone: Power loses almost all of its effectiveness (-2), No Range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4)

Points: 72

 

I may not have built it very well, however it works for this example. I'm sure there is a way to lower the diameter of the AOE however like I said it’s for the purpose of illustration…

Also the page that Double Down is on is chock full of speedster stuff, it’s a good page.

-Woof

 

 

 

Edit: change some of the powerbuild (add Transdimentional), add rot about speedster web page bit.

[Wolf]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Added thought, you could also buy it as a NND defence is going slower than the Speed Zone, just a thought... I kinda feel kewl

Woof is happy with himself...

[OddHat]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Any attack power vs characters in the Speed Zone needs to be Transdimensional, probably AOE, and either Continuous or tied to a trigger with Speed Zone Senses.

 

That is a very large number of active points to counter a character in just one combat. Start throwing them into every combat, and then the rest of the group is suddenly there mainly to deal with the villains who have Instant Speedster Nerf powers, while the Speedster takes out everyone else. You're also in a position similar to a writer who gives every petty thug a Kryptonite baseball bat in case he needs to deal with Superman.

[Wolf]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

True enough, this was a villan from a "Single Hero" comic. Not like a JSA, where you wouldn't see him fighting, for obvious reasons... however throwing it in as a once in a while, would be great... or a villianous pay-back.

rescue the child falling through the dust/ razor bits or die trying... it's one of those messed up things... place it just so and your hero gets to be heroic...

[shrugs], I see what your saying though.

-Woof

[Inu]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

I should probably get this book. It sounds like the Speed Zone, if made compulsory, may be the solution to how to simulate 'bullet time' effects for a Matrix or related game.

[OddHat]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

True enough, this was a villan from a "Single Hero" comic. Not like a JSA, where you wouldn't see him fighting, for obvious reasons... however throwing it in as a once in a while, would be great... or a villianous pay-back.

rescue the child falling through the dust/ razor bits or die trying... it's one of those messed up things... place it just so and your hero gets to be heroic...

[shrugs], I see what your saying though.

-Woof

 

To be fair, for a single player game or occasional team throw down a few anti speed zone gimmicks are fine. I'm not trying to stomp on the idea.

 

I would prefer a different solution if a speed zone character were to be permitted at all in a team game.

[pinecone]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Yeah I'd think one way to deal with the speed zone is to give speed zoners a rogues gallery of "arch foes" so you can swap out a planned villian for a counterweight....that and not letting it get too over the top in the first place. I might well make the speed zone an inherantly dangerous place so a handfull of gravel in the air is deadly in the speedzone because your relative speed is so dang high......a game based effect...a speedster can overcome such hazards, but at the cost of some of his precious extra actions....

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Looking for counters to eveything is probably both a strength and a weakness of HERO and (for superheroes) where it veers most decidedly from the source material.

 

In the comics heroes often face opponents to whom they have no counter except switching opponents with a teammate.

 

As far as speedzone stuff goes, I would imagine that the most effective attacks against someone moving that much faster are those that use the effect against the user. Wolf talked about Double Down and I would suggest that you are looking at some kind of Change Environment that causes damage based on the speed of the person within the environment.

 

If you can make the speedster move through material then he'll take damage based on his velocity and personal SPD, thus using his advantages against him.

 

If I was a brick I might think about crushing rocks and causing a cloud of rubble to appear in the area the speedster is moving through.

 

My 'counter' is thinking of ways to make the advantage of speed a disadvantage - that's what tended to happen with the Flash.

 

 

Doc

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Inu: You should get this book. It's great for modeling Bullet Time (as Extra SPD, Only to Dodge) and for Hackers/Deckers (Extra SPD, only while online) for sci-fi/star hero campaigns. Again, I'm in agreement with Oddhat. If everyone has Kryptonite, then Superman becomes Averageman, and the last time someone saw a Scarlet Letter A in the sky it wasn't because they were from Krypton. Just sayin'.

 

I have no problems with the Speed Zone. Seriously, not one. I have no issues with it whatsoever. I wouldn't allow it unless I were doing the kind of campaign where its warranted, and if I did, I'd probably put some SERIOUSLY heavy limitations on how often it can be used, but the END cost alone is going to slow folks down. And I'm comfortable with that.

[gojira]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Another idea would be to decide that other powers can interact with the speed zone in certain ways.

 

For example, what is faster than the speed of thought? Well, in reality a lot of things, but in comics maybe very little. As GM, you could declare that the Speed Zone and the Astral Plane "touch," allowing mentalists to take actions against a character in the Speed Zone. A mentalist on the Astral Plane, or entering the Astral Plane at the same time as the Speedster, could do battle with the Speedster, trying to force him out of the Speed Zone.

 

This idea also opens the door for Magic based characters, who might also have access to the to the Astral Plane, as well as various ghosts, demons, spirits, and magical creatures that might be bought as Summons.

 

Obviously, if you allow the Speed Zone at all, you are making Speed based characters very powerful. It makes sense to have a few defenses that others can use against the Speed Zone. What happens when a Speed Villain shows up? You're players will need some defense of their own.

 

 

BTW, the Double Down idea above, and the CE idea, for stopping speedsters, were great suggestions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Any bets on whether we see Enter the Astral Plane in the Ultimate Mentalist?

 

I like the idea of mentalists able to engage in mental combat at a speed suficient that they could meaningfully target speedsters in the speed zone.

[casualplayer]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

The Speed Zone seems to be HERO's "Close-but-not-Infringing" version of DC's Speed Force which, point of order, was so imbalancing that they just recently jettisoned it.

 

Now along with most of the Flash Family taking Psych Lims boiling down to "Must Ignore Science Training When Using Powers" (Very Common, Strong) all the characters seemed to have some sort of Fair Play disad also. Witness Professor Zoom, a Speed Force (Zone) character without restraint. Imagine him running amok in your campaign. As a player.

 

Now if you take a look at the Flash Family Rogue's Gallery, it's almost a non-stop parade of Focus Freaks. Jay Garrick/Silver Age Flash used to spend all his time fighting the Fiddler and the Shade. Barry spent all his time dodging boomerangs and fighting the Pied Piper. Wally inherited Barry's foes. It's a stretch to see how any of these people would be more than a moment's trouble for any Flash but they all seemed to have some sort of Flash Defense , usually part of their VPPs being set as Triggered damage or Damage Shield. Often the pipes, skates, violin, philosophers stone, weather wand, etc was also Flash-trapped if touched. Sometimes these folks would stray into Gotham and Batman would take away their toys and beat them unmercifully, so specific anti-Speed Zone powers are in genre if not very fun in the game setting.

 

One of the speedster's cool bits is to strip guns away in a blink. That's great if it's VIPER grunts, not so great if it's Mechassassin. Maybe it's time to start buying sidearms as OIF even if they aren't cybernetically attached to simulate that they can't just be nabbed with a grab.

 

Another way to rein the Speed Zone in is to populate the dimension. Here There Be Dragons. Maybe the residents don't like meatpeople trespassing. You could make Speed Zone characters take Hunteds to reflect the angry natives.

 

It's a whole lot cheaper to Suppress characters ability to reach and perceive out of the Speed Zone than it is to stop them from entering.

 

I'm sure more stuff will occur to me when I actually get the book.

[Wolf]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

Ok, so this is going to sound lame to most of you, however I had never run a super’s game until just a few months ago, and I’ve been gaming along time (almost 20 years) I just usually do normals games. Of point… anyway I’ve found in the comics at least there tends to be a focus on taking the super out of superhero’s… especially DC… Villains tend to have just the right thing to knock down the massive powers of the hero’s…. Like have you seen a Superman movie grossing a ton of money without the mention of Kryptonite? I think we love to see how super the heroes are even when their like us, only they have been taken down to our level and they still don’t give up… ya know? So I’m starting to introduce more specific villains, and my group is loving it… so we’ll see.

-Woof

[LoresLost]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

The Speed Zone seems to be HERO's "Close-but-not-Infringing" version of DC's Speed Force which, point of order, was so imbalancing that they just recently jettisoned it.

You haven't seen the New Flash series, have you. ITS BACK

But as far as Ideas to make the speed zone dangerous, Wally had the additional ability to cause things to explode by adding kinetic energy, maybe your speedsters has a some side effect like that to work with. (Side Effect XD6 KA explosion centered on Items touched while in Speed Zone 8- Required all who use the speed zone)

 

Another idea is for a GM to require extra END on all tasks in the Speed Zone (Your burning energy to move Very Quickly).

 

Also you might have a side effect that you end up in a parallel universe if you use the speed force (A true EDM uncontrolled side effect required by all Speedsters by the GM).

[gojira]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

I like the side effects idea. Maybe an END drain, persistant, or similar to represent "you are exhausted." Or a Suppress on all your powers, including the Speed Zone one, cumulative for a few hours each time you use the Speed Zone.

 

The parallel universe idea is interesting, but I don't see exactly how it would work. Maybe a side effect of the Speed Zone could be Unluck, to represent that bad or unatural things happen as a result of using the Speed Zone. Two dice of Unluck for each use of the Speed Zone, which stay around for 12 hours or so, could do nicely.

[OddHat]

Re: Countering the Speed Zone

 

In one of the original Speed Zone stories, HG Wells "New Accelerator", the main characters had to be careful not to smash objects when touching them from the speed zone, risked setting anything they moved on fire through friction, and almost burned up themselves on re-entering normal reality. It was a semi-comic story, and so these problems were easily overcome, but requiring a Speed Tricks roll every time you move an object or risking an environmental side effect might work well, as well as requiring rolls when entering and leaving the Speed Zone to avoid injuring yourself. However, this will not feel in genre for many speedsters.