throw and attack airborne target

[TokyoHero]

CKC, Eurostar side bar lists a move where Durak throws a target into the air and the others attack the helpless target. Realistically, if Durak throws the target high enough, he should be able to pick up a car and throw it at the airborne target, or at least wait at the landing point and hit the poor guy as he comes down.

How do you work this in Hero terms?

I guess my main question is, how long does it take for something thrown to land?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

Here's what you do (I think).

 

1. Compute Durak's distance with the object in question; presumably a standing throw, halved because it's a vertical throw. At the end of Durak's action, it will be that high in the air. Just to grab a random number, I'll say it's 20 hexes up on Durak's DEX on segment 3.

2. At the end of Segment 3, it falls 5". The target is now 15" up.

3. At the end of Segment 4, it falls 10". The target is now 5" up.

4. On DEX 20, SPD 5 (if I'm remembering D's stats right), Durak can act again and, as you suggest, grab a car or whatever. He could even pull the DBZ move of jumping up and spiking the target, if he so desires.

4a. At the end of Segment 5, if the target hasn't been caught or stopped or whatever, he falls 15". As he had only 5" to go, he takes 15d6 of damage (1d6 per inch of velocity).

[Narratio]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

I suggest that a minimum requirement to try this would also involve a die throw with "Lightning Calculation" and a ranging sense. That's not going to be easy targetting, doing it on the fly.

[Dust Raven]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

I suggest that a minimum requirement to try this would also involve a die throw with "Lightning Calculation" and a ranging sense. That's not going to be easy targetting' date=' doing it on the fly.[/quote']

 

I don't think so. It's really no different than tossing a ball up in the air and hitting it with a stick or catching it. Just keep your eye on it. Granted, in combat this is often harder than it looks, but not so hard that you'd need to do trig in your head to calculate when to attack.

[prestidigitator]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

I don't think so. It's really no different than tossing a ball up in the air and hitting it with a stick or catching it. Just keep your eye on it. Granted' date=' in combat this is often harder than it looks, but not so hard that you'd need to do trig in your head to calculate when to attack.[/quote']

Actually the interesting thing in terms of physics is that if you aim directly at the object just at the start of its fall (in this case at the instant it is stationary at the peak of the throw) as if it were a stationary object (vertically, anyway), everything takes care of itself. Both the target and the projectile/thrown object accelerate at the same rate due to gravity, which results in a collision whereever the paths intersect along the fall (at least if air resistance doesn't change things significantly). That can eliminate the curved path of the projectile/thrown object as a factor in how you aim, which in fact makes things slightly easier if you know to take advantage of it. Just an interesting little fact that could have some application here.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

I suggest that a minimum requirement to try this would also involve a die throw with "Lightning Calculation" and a ranging sense. That's not going to be easy targetting' date=' doing it on the fly.[/quote']

 

The same logic should then apply to targetting anyone who's moving. Although we move characters on their phase, then leave them there until their next phase, conceptually they are moving throughout the turn.

[Manic Typist]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

Actually the interesting thing in terms of physics is that if you aim directly at the object just at the start of its fall (in this case at the instant it is stationary at the peak of the throw) as if it were a stationary object (vertically' date=' anyway), everything takes care of itself. Both the target and the projectile/thrown object accelerate at the same rate due to gravity, which results in a collision whereever the paths intersect along the fall (at least if air resistance doesn't change things significantly). That can eliminate the curved path of the projectile/thrown object as a factor in how you aim, which in fact makes things slightly easier if you know to take advantage of it. Just an interesting little fact that could have some application here.[/quote']

 

I'm sorry, are you saying if I throw straight up at them this works, or even if I am doing it from the side?

[KA.]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

I would say that unless you are jumping straight up into the target (sort of a Move Through) then the target should at least get some DCV bonus for the rate at which they are moving, at least from your point of view, depending on the circumstances.

 

Why?

 

Well, if this is a practiced maneuver, your team can basically 'hold their fire' until the victim reaches the top of the 'arc', at which point they are 'not moving' in relation to the rest of the team. So, they can fire at what is basically a 'stationary' target.

 

But, if, due to your speed, you are not able to attack again until the target is on the way down, you are firing at a 'moving' target.

 

Another way to do it would be to make the person doing the throw have to roll 'to hit' a 'target' when making the throw. The 'target' would be the position in the air where they wanted the victim to end up, so as to be easy to attack on their next phase.

 

This seems to go along with the 'toss a ball up and hit it' example, because if you have ever watched a total novice do that, you will see them put the ball in the wrong place (too high, too low, to one side, etc) and have trouble hitting it when it comes down.

 

KA.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

Here's what you do (I think).

 

1. Compute Durak's distance with the object in question; presumably a standing throw, halved because it's a vertical throw. At the end of Durak's action, it will be that high in the air. Just to grab a random number, I'll say it's 20 hexes up on Durak's DEX on segment 3.

2. At the end of Segment 3, it falls 5". The target is now 15" up.

3. At the end of Segment 4, it falls 10". The target is now 5" up.

4. On DEX 20, SPD 5 (if I'm remembering D's stats right), Durak can act again and, as you suggest, grab a car or whatever. He could even pull the DBZ move of jumping up and spiking the target, if he so desires.

4a. At the end of Segment 5, if the target hasn't been caught or stopped or whatever, he falls 15". As he had only 5" to go, he takes 15d6 of damage (1d6 per inch of velocity).

I think you've got the methodology right. But just because I have the books handy:

 

Durak's STR is 70. (23 DEX, BTW - you were close.) Assuming an average-human weight target, that means D has 60 Extra STR for Throwing purposes, which gives him a 24" standing throw. Which translates to 12" vertically. Which means the target hits the ground on Segment 4, before Durak can get in another shot. To get a 15" vertical throw Durak would need an 85 STR, which is beyond normal Pushing limits. Or go for the Running Throw (48" H / 24" V).

[casualplayer]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

What a fine example to show how weak the throwing rules are. Throwing should involve calculating force applied, convert to acceleration, object goes til it slows, stops or smacks into something. A 40 STR brick should be able to throw a baseball across town, but it should take about a minute to get there and have to travel in an arc.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

What a fine example to show how weak the throwing rules are. Throwing should involve calculating force applied' date=' convert to acceleration, object goes til it slows, stops or smacks into something. A 40 STR brick should be able to throw a baseball across town, but it should take about a minute to get there and have to travel in an arc.[/quote']

Yeah, cuz there's not nearly enough math in Hero as it is now.

[casualplayer]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

Yeah' date=' cuz there's not [i']nearly[/i] enough math in Hero as it is now.

 

Yeah, exactly!

 

Oh wait, you were being facetious. Like there's not nearly enough facetiousness in HERO as it is now.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

Yeah, exactly!

 

Oh wait, you were being facetious. Like there's not nearly enough facetiousness in HERO as it is now.

Touche!

[prestidigitator]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

I'm sorry' date=' are you saying if I throw straight up at them this works, or even if I am doing it from the side?[/quote']

Even from the side! In one of the first physics classes I took the professor did the following neat demonstration: there is a ball hanging from the ceiling, and a cannon on the ground placed a distance away horizontally that fires another ball. The cannon is aimed directly at the hanging ball (no correction for the curvature of trajectories or anything). The two are wired so that the ball starts falling at the exact time the cannon is fired. It turns out that it doesn't matter how far away the cannon is or what their difference in height is. (so long as the balls would reach each other before they hit the ground, of course). Proving this is pretty straightforward, but I'll spare you here.

 

This becomes reasonably obvious if the cannon is directly beneath or above the target, or if they are on the same height and the cannon is fired horizontally. The neat thing is that it generalizes. The catch is that the projectile has to be fired right at the moment the target starts to drop from rest, so that the vertical velocities are affected the same over time by the acceleration of gravity. Like I said this could be used to the attacker's advantage if (s)he can manage to throw/fire precisely at the moment the target reaches the peak of its trajectory.

 

If the target's trajectory is not straight up-down, you would still have to account for any applicable horizontal motion, of course. Also if air resistance distorts the trajectories or speeds significantly this could alter the situation. So maybe if the thrown object takes the unaerodynamic OCV penalty (or if the target will reach terminal velocity before the collision) or something you could just say this tactic won't give a bonus (or negate a penalty).

[TokyoHero]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

Ok, I have 2 ideas about how to do this.

1) Use CrosshairCollie’s idea and have Durak hold his action to get 2 Phases in a row. Hold Phase 12 until Segment 2. Throw on 2. Attack on 3.

2) Do it as a Sweep (throw and then attack). The problem is that the second attack has modifiers that the throw doesn’t: range, zero-G, etc.

I like the Sweep idea for one reason. I think anyone who does this is planning from the start to attack after the throw. You can Abort the attack, but midway you can’t suddenly change your mind and take a different action.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

I think you've got the methodology right. But just because I have the books handy:

 

Durak's STR is 70. (23 DEX, BTW - you were close.) Assuming an average-human weight target, that means D has 60 Extra STR for Throwing purposes, which gives him a 24" standing throw. Which translates to 12" vertically. Which means the target hits the ground on Segment 4, before Durak can get in another shot. To get a 15" vertical throw Durak would need an 85 STR, which is beyond normal Pushing limits. Or go for the Running Throw (48" H / 24" V).

 

The optional throwing table in Ultimate Brick would give you more room to play with.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: throw and attack airborne target

 

The optional throwing table in Ultimate Brick would give you more room to play with.

Right, I'd forgotten about that. (UB is at home.) Good point.