Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher Coming in late... The problem with Supes is that he doesn't just have the "Code of the Hero," PsychLim, he also has the "Heroically Stupid" PsychLim. His raw power gets him through so often that he seldom stops to think until it's brutally obvious that he has to. He throws himself into situations at the drop of a hat, and sometimes gets in over his head for it, when a little thought would have samed him a lot of pain and trouble. Well, what does your interpretation of Superman have to do with the premise of using a character like him as an icon? Are you saying you don't like the character and therefore wouldn't have a Supermannish Icon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 In my campeign I have two German Supermen clones, one more powerful than the other: Der Unbezwingbare (The Unconquerable, someone who speaks the language can check my spelling) is the more powerful of the two and his origin is quite similar to the DC character with a couple changes. Obviously his ship landed in Germany, the technology of the ship messed with his DNA to make him look human. His alien powers took time to assert themself, etc... Mut (Valor): is the natural son of the couple that adopted Unbezwingbare and was born 8 years later (making him abuot 20). As a child of 7 he was injured, his brother was the only one around who the local doctor knew could provide a blood transfusion, the transfusion gave him powers as he aged. (Kind of borrowed it from She Hulk) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Well, what does your interpretation of Superman have to do with the premise of using a character like him as an icon? Are you saying you don't like the character and therefore wouldn't have a Supermannish Icon? No, but my Superman-template NPC suffers from the same personal flaws I mentioned. I just wanted to point it out because it's not something that gets talked about for that character often enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher No, but my Superman-template NPC suffers from the same personal flaws I mentioned. I just wanted to point it out because it's not something that gets talked about for that character often enough. I have heard it before. I chalk it up to lazy writing more than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher No, but my Superman-template NPC suffers from the same personal flaws I mentioned. I just wanted to point it out because it's not something that gets talked about for that character often enough. It all depends on whether your "clone" is after personality of the original, style, social position or deconstructed comics role fulfillment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 I like the archetype; it's pretty much the quintessence of the four-color genre. Just as long as the PCs in an upper-medium-to-high powered game have the opportunity to eventually reach his level of power and gameworld respect, I have no problems with it. The "why do you need the PCs if Supes is around?" syndrome is a bit of a problem, (just as it can be to fanatical comic book fans who wonder why there aren't more crossovers in a superhero world). My world has a lot of active NPCs; my solution for my Superman-like character was to have him do a lot of work for the space program and be happier doing it than flying around dirty cties and getting into brawls, so there was a built-in buffer between him and the PCs. Even so, I gave the PCs opportunities to bond with him, and they must have worked, because late in the campaign I ran a session where the first half hour of the game was taken up watching him fight an alien champion ("with the fate of earth in the balance!") via satellite from an alien world. I was worried the players would get bored fast, but they were quite happy to spend that time making comments and cheering him on during the battle. . Scott Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Originally posted by GestaltBennie I like the archetype; it's pretty much the quintessence of the four-color genre. Just as long as the PCs in an upper-medium-to-high powered game have the opportunity to eventually reach his level of power and gameworld respect, I have no problems with it. The "why do you need the PCs" is a bit of a problem, just as it can be to fanatical comic book fans who wonder why there aren't more crossovers in a superhero world. My world has a lot of NPCs; my solution for my Superman character was to have him do a lot of work for the space program and be happier doing it than flying around dirty cties and getting into brawls, so there was a built-in buffer between him and the PCs. Even so, I gave the PCs opportunities to bond with him, and they must have worked, because late in the camaign I ran a session where the first half hour of the game was taken up watching him fight an alien champion ("with the fate of earth in the balance!") via satellite from an alien world. I was worried the players would get bored fast, but they were quite happy to spend that time making comments and cheering him on during the battle. . Scott Bennie Yep, if used properly, these non-player characters can become old friends to the players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Re: thoughts Originally posted by Hermit As for the comic book code authority...that was self imposed because of a society wide paranoia brought on in part by a quack psychologist (My opinion only) . I believe at the time, it was the right move or society might have destroyed the comic industry entirely. It also did help form the superhero genre many of us know and love today. I think it was largely an opportunistic move designed to put EC out of business. General Standards Part A 11) The letters of the word "crime" on a comics magazine shall never be appreciably greater than the other words contained in the title. The word "crime" shall never appear alone on a cover. 12) Restraint in the use of the word "crime" in titles or subtitles shall be exercised. General Standards Part B 1) No comic magazine shall use the word "horror" or "terror" in its title. 2) All scenes of horror, excessive bloodshed, gory or gruesome crimes, depravity, lust, sadism, masochism shall not be permitted. ... 5) Scenes dealing with, or instruments associated with walking dead, torture vampires and vampirism, ghouls, cannibalism, and werewolfism are prohibited. I particularly like the term 'werewolfism'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Originally posted by Killer Shrike The thing with Supes is, he doesnt fit an archetype; he straddles several archetypes. He is the penultimate Flying Speedster Energy Projector Patriot Brick! Under my current thinking on archetypes, Superman is a Brick, or Strongman as I call them, just like the mythological Hercules. All the other powers are just trimmings, Supes is mainly the strongest guy around. Even though he can run faster than the speed of light that isn't his main shtick. It's Flash's shtick but not Superman's. Likewise with patriot. The guys in the red, white and blue costumes are the real patriots, with Superman it's a secondary feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytus Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 In my campaign, there is Captain Champion, who fills the role of Superman/Captain America. Meta-humans have been on Earth since the Dawn of Time, only the world governments worked hard to keep their existance a secret - mainly to keep them under control. The Champion appeared in the U.S. in 1970, the first public super-hero in history. He isn;t so much for Truth, Justice and the American Way, but Truth, Justice and the American Dream. He is not only very powerful, but noble, heroic, friendly, ... all the things you'd want in a good role-model. Like Superman, he has inspired a whole generation of heroes to follow his example. He became known as Captain Champion when he actually joined PATRIOT (my version of PRIMUS) and was given the rank of captain to form the first govt. sanctioned super-hero team, the Champions. He is still active in the world, but it is always off in the sidelines so he does not overshadow the players or their exploits. I simply find having him there is useful for me: its gives the campaign a sense of history. It also fuels my nostalga, as I am a big fan of Supes, and wanted to have an iconic hero like him as the standard of what being a true hero is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Re: I say thee Nay! Originally posted by Hermit Never! Well, maybe... but not today Back on Topic, I do have an NPC Superman type in my game named Mega Man (No relation). He's been around since WW2, just growing more and more powerful...and less human. He no longer needs to sleep, his hearing is so accute he can hear cries for helps for miles... etc. I plan to remove him soon.... in a suitably dramatic way and see which if any players rise to fill the void. ARRRRRG!!! I THOUGHT I WAS SO ORIGINAL! DURN IT!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 You too, eh? Originally posted by Rage ARRRRRG!!! I THOUGHT I WAS SO ORIGINAL! DURN IT!!! There, there Rage. We'll just use the old saying "Great Minds think alike!" and that way we both end up looking good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 One of my irrational pet peeves about Superman is that everyone considers him the ultimate hero and yet it is very hard for him to be truly heroic when you're that powerful and that invulnerable. Facing someone with a gun when you're bulletproof isn't an act of heroism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 yeah That was my gripe with him when I was younger, MfH. Now, I just watch a Justice League rerun where he gets slapped around alot. I actually feel sorry for the guy now; on that show, they've taken it too far the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbcowboy Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Superman's still considered the strongest/toughest hero of the lot, the comics/cartoons have simply brought him back down to a range where the character is interesting again. How many of us remember what the comic was like before DC rereleased it and many of their lineups in the mid to late 80's? Ever villian he fought either a) had Kryptonite, used magic or c) had mental powers, because those were the ONLY things left that he was vulnerable to. The stories had become extremely lame and predictable because of it. Now he actually gets hurt once in a while. Occasionally he has to ignore the pain and continue to rise up to meet his opponents. Now you can see that he actually puts his life on the line for the world. Now the stories are more meaningful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackKnight Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 I haven't read through the whole thread yet (i'm responding to a post on page 3) so I'll apologize in advance if someone else pointed this out already... We recently saw Finding Nemo and they had a preview of the next Disney/Pixar feature (due in 2005). It is called The Incredibles, and the preview centers around Mr. Incredible. We first see him in a series of photos and clippings on his den wall. He receives a call on the "red phone" and prepares to leap into action. As we finally see him, it turns out he's long past his prime and can't seem to fit into his utility belt any longer. It's very funny and should be great (as all Pixar films have been, IMO), especially for us superhero fans. Some info Originally posted by BlackSword A year or two ago Cartoon Network had a series of pilot shows on and the viewers choose the next cartoon they would produce. The end product was they choose the Grim&Evil show. One of the cartoons though was about a superhero organization, and one of the heroes was the old guy from the previous age, he was pretty much a superman clone, except at age 70 or so. Needless to say the end of the show was this old guy going down and showing the young pups how to do it. It was a fairly humourous concept, but I don't know how well it would fit in the Champions Universe if you knew that if you lost some powerful older superhero would swoop in and save the day. Depending on the genre an elder powerful superhero who has retired to a life of politics, debating, activism, philantropy, etc, can act as a way to ease people's minds to metahumans. On the other hand, Superman has done several things (the robots in the comics, and Legacy in the animated series) to hurt people's trust in him and hence problaby the superhero community in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackKnight Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 Originally posted by GestaltBennie Even so, I gave the PCs opportunities to bond with him, and they must have worked, because late in the campaign I ran a session where the first half hour of the game was taken up watching him fight an alien champion ("with the fate of earth in the balance!") via satellite from an alien world. I was worried the players would get bored fast, but they were quite happy to spend that time making comments and cheering him on during the battle. That's very cool...sounds like some quality role-playing there...good times! Originally posted by GestaltBennie I like the archetype; it's pretty much the quintessence of the four-color genre. Just as long as the PCs in an upper-medium-to-high powered game have the opportunity to eventually reach his level of power and gameworld respect, I have no problems with it. The "why do you need the PCs if Supes is around?" syndrome is a bit of a problem, (just as it can be to fanatical comic book fans who wonder why there aren't more crossovers in a superhero world). My world has a lot of active NPCs; my solution for my Superman-like character was to have him do a lot of work for the space program and be happier doing it than flying around dirty cties and getting into brawls, so there was a built-in buffer between him and the PCs. In my perpetually-embryonic campaign/world, the Superman rung of the power ladder is filled by Omega Prime, leader of a small team of heroes (with Omega in it's name ;-) I envision him as very Superman-like in terms of powers/power level, but very enigmatic and aloof. (I think that perhaps he has never spoken, or only very rarely). The team is based in Antarctica (to avoid territorial favoritism) and generally only operates on a global-scale, most often vs. natural disasters, though sometimes vs. human-caused situations. There is a UN connection to the team, but not anything formal (they are independent and don't take orders, in other words). The other members of the team are lower-powered (though still pretty high on the scale) and more human/approachable. They follow Prime's lead though, and he sets the tone for what they do and don't do. You could ask the question why don't they spend all of their time solving the smaller-scale but still overwhelming problems of the world. I figure they have good reasons, but no one really knows what they are (hence the aloof/enigmatic thang). This way, they don't overshadow the "PC's" (if I had any), but still function as the "top of the scale". This Omega Prime guy is obviously not the Last Boy Scout that Supes is (I've never been a big DC fan, but you gotta give props to Supes!). I haven't given that "slot" as much thought, but it would probably be filled by the US' resident most-powerful SuperPatriot (not sure who that is yet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Well how about this? Everyone agrees the problem with Superman is the powers. But we like his stature and gravitas - the 'old man' of the superhero community. So the answer is - he's still around but he no longer has any powers. He lost them in 1986 to Gold Kryptonite as per Alan Moore's Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow? He may be in hiding from his many remaining enemies but like all old people he won't be able to resist butting in on the new generation of heroes - the PCs - to tell them they're doing everything all wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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