Targetting a Hex

[Valerious]

I'm running a game that includes a player character with many Area of Effect powers, and that has raised a question about targetting a hex with an Area of Effect attack.

 

As I understand it, the hex has DCV 3 and range modifiers are applied. Good so far.

 

However, where I run into a question is this. Say the bad guy is moving really fast, say running 30" with SPD 8. We play the velocity-based DCV rules, so with a +7 to his DCV, most of the team is having a hard time hitting. Then AoE Guy's turn come up, he effortlessly hits the DCV 3 hex that our evil speeder is in. This feels...wrong. It seems to me that whether he's throwing a grenade, englobing in a force wall, or whatever else, it ought to be hard for him to know which hex the bad guy is in, given his speed. Common sense seems to dictate that there's a good chance he'd pick the wrong hex. But since we move characters on their turn and they're otherwise stationary on the map, it's easy for a player to point to the villain's marker and say "I target THIS hex."

 

I've looked through the rules and haven't found anything relelvant so far; I'm hoping I'm overlooking something. My initial impressions are to either require some kind of perception roll to pick the right hex, or apply the velocity based DCV to the hex. Any other ideas, or am I overlooking something already in the rules? Or am I just being an unreasonable GM to think this should be harder than a trivial DCV 3?

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

You could give the hex velocity-based DCV by the speed of the Earth's rotation.

 

More seriously, I'd go with the PER roll representing the trick of judging where the target is about to be.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

That is why an attack built as AoE is more expensive than one that targets the person himself. BUT, there are a number of things you can do to even out the odds a bit.

 

For instance, you can have the villain hold action until after the guy fires off his AoE, then dodge the hex. Or, he can abort to dodge. If the attack covers a large area, there's always dodging for cover, which is also an abort action.

 

It will slow your villain down, but if the alternative is for him to end up dead, it's in his best interest.

[Guest Cougar]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

I'm running a game that includes a player character with many Area of Effect powers, and that has raised a question about targetting a hex with an Area of Effect attack.

 

As I understand it, the hex has DCV 3 and range modifiers are applied. Good so far.

 

However, where I run into a question is this. Say the bad guy is moving really fast, say running 30" with SPD 8. We play the velocity-based DCV rules, so with a +7 to his DCV, most of the team is having a hard time hitting. Then AoE Guy's turn come up, he effortlessly hits the DCV 3 hex that our evil speeder is in. This feels...wrong. It seems to me that whether he's throwing a grenade, englobing in a force wall, or whatever else, it ought to be hard for him to know which hex the bad guy is in, given his speed. Common sense seems to dictate that there's a good chance he'd pick the wrong hex. But since we move characters on their turn and they're otherwise stationary on the map, it's easy for a player to point to the villain's marker and say "I target THIS hex."

 

I've looked through the rules and haven't found anything relelvant so far; I'm hoping I'm overlooking something. My initial impressions are to either require some kind of perception roll to pick the right hex, or apply the velocity based DCV to the hex. Any other ideas, or am I overlooking something already in the rules? Or am I just being an unreasonable GM to think this should be harder than a trivial DCV 3?

 

I don't GM Champions much, so maybe those who do would have a different take, but I think that simply adding the DCV modifier (+7) to the Hex DCV (3) is probably the simplest way to deal with it. A DCV of 10 is still a leg up on the Speedster's normal DCV+Velocity modifier, but not a "can't miss" proposition.

 

The DCV modifier is, to my way of thinking, a perception based modifier already, so no need to mess with additional rolls.

 

Paul

[prestidigitator]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

My thoughts:

 

1. You could build the speedster with an Invisibility that has a Fringe because he is, "faster than the eye can follow."
   
2. The speedster is likely to have a heck of a Dive for Cover (high Dex and incredible movement).
   
3. Figure out how many hexes the speedster covers at his current velocity in the equivalent of one of the attacker's Phases and for each time this doubles the diameter of the attacker's AoE, give a -1 OCV to hit the right hex (if it's a non-radius AoE use an appropriate characteristic length, like the final width of a cone). This should only really apply if the speedster is traveling in a straight line.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

If you don't think an extra die roll would slow combat down too much, I'd suggest doing this in two steps. First, have him make an attack vs. just the DCV gained from velocity (i.e., roll to hit a DCV 7). This determines whether he can adequately compensate for the velocity, and determine the correct hex to target. Then have him roll to hit the hex with its normal DCV of 3.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

I don't GM Champions much' date=' so maybe those who do would have a different take, but I think that simply adding the DCV modifier (+7) to the Hex DCV (3) is probably the simplest way to deal with it. A DCV of 10 is still a leg up on the Speedster's normal DCV+Velocity modifier, but not a "can't miss" proposition.[/quote']

I find DCV 3 for a hex works well for most circumstances, but I don't think you'd be unreasonable to make it a little harder in this case. But I think I would halve the velocity modifier (to +4 in this case); the player did pay a premium for his AoE attack, after all.

 

Something else you could try would be to have AOE Guy try to predict the speedster's move by writing down where he thinks the speedster is going to end his movement. Then when it's AOE Guy's phase he reveals his prediction: if he guessed the right hex, the hex has its normal DCV; if he missed it, then you add one to the hex's DCV for every hex he was off by (up to the speedster's regular DCV). I've done this before for some delayed-effect attacks. But it can be pretty severe if the player isn't a good guesser, so use with caution.

 

Is there anything in Ultimate Speedster that might address this? (Sorry - I haven't got my copy yet.)

[BeZurKur]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

I'd apply the bonus of speed to DCV. If he misses, figure out where the shot lands as per the rules (p.375.) It is likely that the speedster is still hit if within range of the AoE. This way each character gets a benefit for their power: the speedster is harder to hit and more likely to be outside the effect and the attacker still has a better chance of hitting because of the effect.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

I'd apply the bonus of speed to DCV. If he misses' date=' figure out where the shot lands as per the rules (p.375.) It is likely that the speedster is still hit if within range of the AoE. This way each character gets a benefit for their power: the speedster is harder to hit and more likely to be outside the effect and the attacker still has a better chance of hitting because of the effect.[/quote']

That's another good option. Of course, I just realized these options are going to be funny if the speedster is moving past another stationary target. If the character targets the speedster's hex he is going to take a big penalty, but if the character targets the hex of the stationary target, he can hit the speedster easily? It seems like there are going to be a lot of issues around resolving such a situation.

 

Here's another idea: build the speedster with some kind of Triggered movement that goes off if he is within an AoE, and is Limited (seems like a pretty hefty Limitation too) to only allowing him to take some of his next Phase's movement early to get out of the AoE (the GM still might rightly require a contested roll like the usual Dex-vs.-Dex for a Delayed action to see which comes first since it isn't really an Abort or anything, but...). This is sort of like a non-Abort, super Dive For Cover.

[Zed-F]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

I would not add modifiers to the AoE's chance to hit. There is a reason AoE is more expensive than regular attacks, and there is a reason AoE attacks are one of a speedster's primary nemesises. Making changes to this mechanic on the fly seems to open a very large, messy can of worms.

 

It seems more to me like the speedster is missing something, if you want him to be able to more effectively defend versus AoE attacks. Invisibility while moving is a good idea. Building some triggered movement to act as a super dive for cover is another. But any way you slice it, if you want to go beyond what the rules normally allow with regular maneuvers, then it's up to the speedster to buy that ability. What the AoE guy is doing is perfectly within the rules and he should not be penalized for correctly assessing the speedster's weakness.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

Some interesting suggestions by everyone so far.

 

edit: Velocity Based DCV is not a bonus to a character's normal DCV. It replaces the characters normal DCV only when it is higher (usually when making Moveby's, Movethroughs and/or moving at Non-Combat Velocities).

 

Giving "Dive For Cover/Flying Dodge" like bonuses to a speedster villain for free opens the door to doing the same for player's speedsters. This could end being a nightmare for you later in the campaign.

 

I would let the AOE 1 hex attack work exactly 1 time as a 'suprise' manuever. Afterwards I would just have the speedster villain make half-moves instead of full moves and hold his other 1/2 phase action just to counter this type of tactic. Just because a speedster has the highest DEX does not mean that he should go first in ALL situations.

 

AOE attacks should only be avoidable by way of the DFC and Flying-Dodge manuevers. The typical speedster's 27+ DEX (and any levels with movement) should make the DFC roll quite easy vs. an AOE 1 Hex attack.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

Yeah. The way I'm seeing things is really in line with the above two posts. Clearly put guys!

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

edit: Velocity Based DCV is not a bonus to a character's normal DCV. It replaces the characters normal DCV only when it is higher (usually when making Moveby's' date=' Movethroughs and/or moving at Non-Combat Velocities).[/quote']

DOH! I knew that. (Good catch!)

 

Giving "Dive For Cover/Flying Dodge" like bonuses to a speedster villain for free opens the door to doing the same for player's speedsters.

Definitely you shouldn't open that door unless you're prepared for the PCs to go through it as well.

 

Afterwards I would just have the speedster villain make half-moves instead of full moves and hold his other 1/2 phase action just to counter this type of tactic.

That works, but then he's not going to get many attack in, even with an 8 SPD. Unless you would allow him to attack, and then hold a half-move. Or conversely: abort to a half-move, but still let him take the other 1/2-phase action (like attack) on his regular phase. But then you open up other cans o' worms...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

Another useful trick for the speedster is for him to stay close to Mr AoE's teammates (or even AoE Man himself). The AoE guy will be a bit more reluctant to fire off that 10d6 AoE at the speedster when he flattens two or three of his teammates as well.

 

There are very few Powers that can't be countered with good tactics. If AoE Guy is the biggest threat to the speedster, then he's also the logical first target for the speedster's full-speed Move Through or Passing Strike in the first Phase of the fight.

[OddHat]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

I would not want to cheat a character whose player spent points in good faith on a power I approved. Part of that is not adding house rules in mid campaign to nerf a PC.

 

I might go for a PER Roll to guess where the speedster was heading and then an attack roll vs the hex's DCV 3 to place the attack. If you want a way for a Speedster to counter that, there are options (many of them mentioned up thread) other that changing the rules on the players.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

I would not want to cheat a character whose player spent points in good faith on a power I approved. Part of that is not adding house rules in mid campaign to nerf a PC.

 

I might go for a PER Roll to guess where the speedster was heading and then an attack roll vs the hex's DCV 3 to place the attack. If you want a way for a Speedster to counter that, there are options (many of them mentioned up thread) other that changing the rules on the players.

I agree with this 100%. Don't bend the rules to favor the bad guys; just come up with better tactics on their part to counter the AoE attack - like a villain with ranged attacks of his own; maybe with No Range Mod and Extended Range.

 

Hero is a rock/scissors/paper type of game. For every Power, there's a counter. Find it and use.

[Valerious]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

Thanks for the replies, it's a great help.

 

I especially appreciate the suggestions for tactics to avoid the AoE attacks, particularly as holding actions and aborting are concerned. I'll work on using that rather than inventing rules. It makes sense that in order to avoid attacks such as these, a speedy villain should use his advantage in speed(go figure!).

 

As you could probably guess from my first post, I had been playing velocity DCV as a bonus. Thanks for pointing out the way it's supposed to work; that will change how we play things.

 

This gaming group has been playing together for many years, and we've just recently adopted the Hero System. There's lots for us to learn, and these forums have been a great help so far. I know I'll have more questions in the future, and it's great to have a place to ask experienced people. Our thanks to the community.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

Thanks for the replies, it's a great help.

 

I especially appreciate the suggestions for tactics to avoid the AoE attacks, particularly as holding actions and aborting are concerned. I'll work on using that rather than inventing rules. It makes sense that in order to avoid attacks such as these, a speedy villain should use his advantage in speed(go figure!).

 

As you could probably guess from my first post, I had been playing velocity DCV as a bonus. Thanks for pointing out the way it's supposed to work; that will change how we play things.

 

This gaming group has been playing together for many years, and we've just recently adopted the Hero System. There's lots for us to learn, and these forums have been a great help so far. I know I'll have more questions in the future, and it's great to have a place to ask experienced people. Our thanks to the community.

That's why we're here. We were all new at this once (for me, that was way back in 1982 with 1st Edition Champions). Welcome to Hero and the Hero boards!

 

I've run a SPD 9, DEX 43 quasi-speedster/MA with 30" of Running for 13+ years, and she has nullified many a AoE or EX attack by moving next to an opponent's teammate or other target the bad guy doesn't want damaged. If they can't fire that AoE without hitting something they don't want to hit, you've basically nullified the Advantage.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Targetting a Hex

 

This gaming group has been playing together for many years' date=' and we've just recently adopted the Hero System. There's lots for us to learn, and these forums have been a great help so far. I know I'll have more questions in the future, and it's great to have a place to ask experienced people. Our thanks to the community.[/quote']

And in return: Welcome to the HeroGames Forums! I'm certain you'll make some great contributions to the community yourselves!