New Advantage: Robust Immunity

[schir1964]

Screen

This advantage is applied to an attack and allows the character to reduce/negate the effect of similar attacks. This advantage can be purchased at varying levels to reflect different SFX. When the character is attacked and has the matching SFX, the number of dice the character has in the attack that the advantage is applied to is subtracted from the number of dice that is rolled from the incoming attack.

 

Example:

10d6 EB (Fire Blast) with Expanded Screen is attacked with a 12d6 EB (Fire Blast). Ten dice are removed before rolling the attack, thus the attack becomes a 2d6 attack.

 

Personal Screen

+1/4 Personal: Grants the character a screen to his own attacks that might affect him via Area Effect or Reflection.

 

Expanded Screen

+1/4 Expanded: Grants the character a screen to any attack that is the same Power and SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Expanded Screen will cause any Energy Blast (Fire) to be screened.

 

+1/4 Exotic: This cumulative modifier will cause the screen to affect the attack with advantages.

 

Robust Screen

+1/2 Non-Resistant: Grants the character a screen to any Attack Power vs Non-Resistant Defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Non-Resistant will screen any attack vs Non-Resistant defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

 

+1/2 Resistant: Grants the character a screen to any Attack Power vs Resistant Defenses that is the same SFX (GM Determined).

Energy Blast (Fire) with Non-Resistant will screen any attack vs Resistant defenses with the same SFX (GM Determined).

 

+1/4 Exotic: This cumulative modifier will cause the screen to affect any attack with advantages.

 

Thoughts?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Thrakazog]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I'd stick with ED damage reduction.

 

Player #1 has a 10d6 fire EB with "robust immunity +2".

Player #2 has a 5d6 fire EB with "robust immunity +2".

 

They didn't pay the same amount for the immunity. Are they both equally immune to fire SFX?

 

Would a focus limitation preclude the robust immunity? I.e., how would a flamethrower offer immunity against flame attacks? (Quite the opposite, I'd think.)

[CourtFool]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Fire Blast: Energy Blast 1 PIP, Robust Immunity (+2) (6 Active Points)

 

Interesting concept, but I like that Hero separates offensive and defensive abilities. I also like that Hero does not have absolutes.

[Kelcyron]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I'd stick with ED damage reduction.

 

Player #1 has a 10d6 fire EB with "robust immunity +2".

Player #2 has a 5d6 fire EB with "robust immunity +2".

 

They didn't pay the same amount for the immunity. Are they both equally immune to fire SFX?

 

Would a focus limitation preclude the robust immunity? I.e., how would a flamethrower offer immunity against flame attacks? (Quite the opposite, I'd think.)

 

The way it was presented, Player #1 would subtract 10 dice from any fire-based attack, but Player #2 would only subtract 5 dice.

 

As to whether or not a focus would preclude buying an attack with robust immunity, it depends on the focus. A normal flamethrower couldn't grant the immunity, but some hyper-tech fire suit might.

 

Kelcyron

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I'm a "no vote" on this one as well. It mixes attacks and defenses excessively for my taste.

 

On the one hand, why would I pay 120 points for this advantage on a 12d6 attack when I could buy 3/4 damage reduction and +40 rED to all energy attacks for the same price?

 

On the other hand, I have visions of this being combined with Variabe Special Effect, so I just need to adopt my opponent's special effect and voila - I'm immune!

[Patriot]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Instead of making it an advantage try tooling it as a power.

 

A Pc would have to be on a very tight leash, limited to one type.

 

 

Of course Damage reduction, (only vs X) with an appropriate limitation cost works well also

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Player #1 has a 10d6 fire EB with "robust immunity +2".

Player #2 has a 5d6 fire EB with "robust immunity +2".

 

They didn't pay the same amount for the immunity. Are they both equally immune to fire SFX?

Someone else already pointed out that they don't get the same immunity.

Player 1 will subtract 10 Dice from the attack.

Player 2 will subtract 5 Dice from the attack.

 

Would a focus limitation preclude the robust immunity? I.e.' date=' how would a flamethrower offer immunity against flame attacks? (Quite the opposite, I'd think.)[/quote']

Every Advantage requires a rationale that the GM will permit.

Just because there is a Zero END Advantage doesn't mean the GM will allow it to be used on any power with any given SFX.

 

This advantage is no different.

A Flamethrower SFX would be denied the availability of this Advantage.

A Ring Of Fire Control SFX might be allowed the availiblity of this Advantage.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Fire Blast: Energy Blast 1 PIP' date=' Robust Immunity (+2) (6 Active Points)[/quote']

Which would mean you would be able to subtract 1 PIP from the attack... nice... (8^D)

 

Interesting concept' date=' but I like that Hero separates offensive and defensive abilities.[/quote']

Well Hero generally does separate them, but there is precedent for mixing them.

1) Personal Immunity Advantage: The current by the book rules.

2) Dispel Attack: Can be used as a defense vs incoming attacks.

 

So it is rare, but not unheard of.

 

I also like that Hero does not have absolutes.

And neither does this Advantage grant an absolute either.

Not sure where you got that idea from.

 

BTW: Hero does have absolutes in a couple of circumstances:

1) Personal Immunity

2) Life Support vs Environmental Damage

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I'm a "no vote" on this one as well. It mixes attacks and defenses excessively for my taste.

 

On the one hand, why would I pay 120 points for this advantage on a 12d6 attack when I could buy 3/4 damage reduction and +40 rED to all energy attacks for the same price?

 

On the other hand, I have visions of this being combined with Variabe Special Effect, so I just need to adopt my opponent's special effect and voila - I'm immune!

This is not meant as a "replacement" for Damage Reduction.

This is to make it simple to create those concepts where the character's immunity to a SFX is based on how much control the character has over that SFX. Thus the more powerful SFX attack he can make then the more immune to that SFX he is.

 

Simple.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Instead of making it an advantage try tooling it as a power.

Actually, this has already been done in another thread by multiple people. This was a very different take on it that just popped into my head.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

This is not meant as a "replacement" for Damage Reduction.

This is to make it simple to create those concepts where the character's immunity to a SFX is based on how much control the character has over that SFX. Thus the more powerful SFX attack he can make then the more immune to that SFX he is.

 

My comments are probably as much directed to pricing as to validity. I don't see a need for (yet) another defensive power anyway, but rather than pay 120 points so my 12d6 attack cancels another 12d6 attack of similar sfx, why not just buy 120 rDEF only vs that SFX for the same 120 points? That makes me way more invulnerable. Even +80 ED armor would be more than adeqyate, and not restricted by sfx.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I have to concur. Defenses are supposed to be cheaper than their attack counterpart. In this case, Expanded Defense is paying the same amount of points for the defense as the attack. I think it might only be useful in a Heroic campaign where equipment is free, but even then, you could make it simpler by just using a force field or armor.

[Thrakazog]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Someone else already pointed out that they don't get the same immunity.

Player 1 will subtract 10 Dice from the attack.

Player 2 will subtract 5 Dice from the attack.

 

 

Ah, I see. I thought that was the "expanded" version. My bad.

 

Still, I find it confusing and unnecessary given that there are already established powers and limitations which allow for the same thing. I'd have to work it over in my head more, but I'm leaning towards no.

[Markdoc]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I'd also vote no - partly because of the concerns voiced already, partly because it overlaps too much for my taste with suppress, which can be used to do the same job.

 

Still, on the plus side, I certainly don't see it as abusive - just unnecessary.

 

cheers, Mark

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

My comments are probably as much directed to pricing as to validity. I don't see a need for (yet) another defensive power anyway' date=' but rather than pay 120 points so my 12d6 attack cancels another 12d6 attack of similar sfx, why not just buy 120 rDEF only vs that SFX for the same 120 points? That makes me way more invulnerable. Even +80 ED armor would be more than adeqyate, and not restricted by sfx.[/quote']

Well pricing is always debateble and feel free to suggest a better pricing scale.

 

As for the other comments:

 

What if the concept is that you aren't more invulnerable. Then you get into a bunch of messy limitations and extra powers that need to be maintained separately every time you increase in power. So again I say, this is simplify those concepts where the immunity tracks with the ability to do damage with the same SFX. And adds more granularity without becoming messier.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I like it, and I don't really see a serious issue with it. Bear in mind it's merely a logical expansion on what Personal Immunity already does, and at least attempts to answer the question "why wouldn't I be immune to the exact same attack against me?" Not to suggest that the purely mechanical answer to that is necessarily inadequate, but this, I beleive, creates an easy shorthand for "invulnerability" to one's own type of powers, let alone specific powers. However, I would reduce the values, personally, probably to +1/2 and +1 for the 2 higher levels.

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I have to concur. Defenses are supposed to be cheaper than their attack counterpart. In this case' date=' Expanded Defense is paying the same amount of points for the defense as the attack. I think it might only be useful in a Heroic campaign where equipment is free, but even then, you could make it simpler by just using a force field or armor.[/quote']

So you agree that pricing is the main issue. What do you think the pricing should be?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I like it' date=' and I don't really see a serious issue with it. Bear in mind it's merely a logical expansion on what Personal Immunity already does, and at least attempts to answer the question "why wouldn't I be immune to the exact same attack against me?" Not to suggest that the purely mechanical answer to that is necessarily inadequate, but this, I beleive, creates an easy shorthand for "invulnerability" to one's own type of powers, let alone specific powers. However, I would reduce the values, personally, probably to +1/2 and +1 for the 2 higher levels.[/quote']

Pricing has been changed to match your suggestion. I just picked the numbers as an initial guess.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Don't get me wrong, mine's a guess, too, I haven't done any numbers analysis.

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

Don't get me wrong' date=' mine's a guess, too, I haven't done any numbers analysis.[/quote']

Well since two other people had concerns with the pricing being too much... (8^D)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

What if the concept is that you aren't more invulnerable. Then you get into a bunch of messy limitations and extra powers that need to be maintained separately every time you increase in power. So again I say' date=' this is simplify those concepts where the immunity tracks with the ability to do damage with the same SFX. And adds more granularity without becoming messier.[/quote']

 

EC:

 

Xd6 Energy Blast

+4X ED, 2X of which is Resistant only vs SFX of Energy Blast

 

That tracks, and comes pretty close to an absolute dice reduction. At 12d6, for example:

 

30 EC:

 

30 - 12d6 EB, Sonic Energy

20 - +48 ED, +24 ED Damage Resistant, only vs Sonic Energy (call it -1/2 even though that's a woefully minor limitation value)

 

Total cost 80 points, so effectively a +1/3 advantage to the Energy Blast. +48 ED, with 24 resistant, should eliminate any 12DC attack and then some. You could have more defense and less resistant, of course, but then we have fractions, and Hero gamers hate fractions

 

Mind you, you'd think defenses "only versus own attack" would be a -2, meqaning personal immunity is also vastly overpriced, even at +1/4.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I dunno, maybe +1/2 for expanded and +1 for robust like the Mondabi guy suggested.

 

If you add this, why not have all defenses work on dice? It might be an interesting twist.

[zornwil]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

I dunno, maybe +1/2 for expanded and +1 for robust like the Mondabi guy suggested.

 

If you add this, why not have all defenses work on dice? It might be an interesting twist.

There was some thread on this, I recall advocating it as part of an immunity-style defense, then expanding on it as an idea for defense in general, I think it could be quite useful. It does eliminate a lot of math in the game. I'm not saying I seriously advocate that as a core rules change, but it could work.

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

EC:

 

Xd6 Energy Blast

+4X ED, 2X of which is Resistant only vs SFX of Energy Blast

 

That tracks, and comes pretty close to an absolute dice reduction. At 12d6, for example:

 

30 EC:

 

30 - 12d6 EB, Sonic Energy

20 - +48 ED, +24 ED Damage Resistant, only vs Sonic Energy (call it -1/2 even though that's a woefully minor limitation value)

 

Total cost 80 points, so effectively a +1/3 advantage to the Energy Blast. +48 ED, with 24 resistant, should eliminate any 12DC attack and then some. You could have more defense and less resistant, of course, but then we have fractions, and Hero gamers hate fractions

 

Mind you, you'd think defenses "only versus own attack" would be a -2, meqaning personal immunity is also vastly overpriced, even at +1/4.

Yep, this is perfect example of how messy it can get with the current rules. You have to resort to an EC for something that can be handled by a simple advantage.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Advantage: Robust Immunity

 

If you add this' date=' why not have all defenses work on dice? It might be an interesting twist.[/quote']

The same reason you have PD/ED + Resistant Defenses, Armor, and Force Field...

 

or Armor Piercing and Penetrating (both have the goal to allow damage to get through defenses)...

 

They make certain SFX that would become very complex and tedious easier to build.

 

Again, I'm not proposing this as a replacement to anything, just another tool, but the GM can choose to use the as you suggest. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins