Weapon poisons: show me what you use

[MordeanGrey]

I'm curious to see what other people use when creating weapon poisons in Fantasy Hero. What type of effects, how much damage, etc.

 

How do you deal with "delayed effect" during combat phases. (For instance, if a poison does "x"-dice of damage over a five minute period, how do you distribute the damage?)

 

Thanks for any insights or ideas.

 

Mordean

[Curufea]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/WS:Poison

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/WS:Poisons

[MordeanGrey]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Cool! Thanks for the links.

 

Anyone else have a sample of a weapon poison?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Sorry, I just actively wasn't paying attention to this thread, and then I thought - "Hey, I'm bored." So, first things first.

 

In order to do what we call "DOTs" or "Damage Over Time," you apply the modifier: "Gradual Effect." It parses out the damage evenly across the period of time it's in use. You can also combine "Gradual Effect" & "Continuous" or something similar (Ghost Angel will know the exact combination, but I think that's it) in order to continually do damage over time without running out of dice - just one die per every tick or so.

 

Poisons are generally built as Gradual Effect Drains, although you can do them as HKAs, EBs, whatever. Chloroform would be an NND Stun Attack (appropriate LS: self contained breathing, immunity to toxins), Stun Only, some really silly high number of dice to make sure whomever gets tagged goes down.

 

Ultimately, like everything in HERO, it depends entirely on what you want to model. Is it a lethal or non-lethal poison? You could Drain DEX, drain DEX and INT, drain movement, I think the only thing you can't drain is OCV & DCV because they're derived - I remember asking Steve about that some time ago.

 

So, if we knew what precisely the poison is supposed to do, we could model it fairly easily. Is it a contact poison? Ingested? Injected? Inhaled?

 

Hope that gives you a start.

[MordeanGrey]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Thanks for your ideas.

 

One of the possible problems I've seen with poisons using "gradual effect " drains is creatures with regeneration. Something that regenerates/heals damage fairly quickly would seem to be affected less from gradual effect poisons. If the gradual effect occured over a long period (like an hour) a regenerating creature would probably never notice.

 

Thoughts?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

It's as dependent on what regenerates as what the effect is. If you're Draining CON, and you Regen BODY, you've got a problem. Oh, and checking over my Star Hero notes evidently you CAN drain OCV & DCV at five points a pop. I think. But it's a matter of what the poison does.

 

For example. If you're building a poison that induces deleriousness, then that's a Change Environment (-DEX, -PER rolls). You can hit someone with Truth Serum (Mind Control, only to make target tell the truth). You can knock them straight unconcious (Suppress STUN, Xd6, Uncontrolled, Poison carries its own "END Reserve" which acts as its timer).

 

Poisons are some of the most horrible things a PC can encounter. In HERO you can purchase Immunity to Toxins for... what, 2 points? Assuming the GM allows it, which generally I wouldn't - especially if you wanted to be able to use things like this. Remember, you're just taking any effect and modding the rules slightly to incorporate the concept of "poison."

[azato]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Cool! Thanks for the links.

 

Anyone else have a sample of a weapon poison?

 

 

Do you mean "example" instead of sample?

[Curufea]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Do you mean "example" instead of sample?

 

Most weapons come with a sample. Iron Oxide, it provides a wonderful death dealing poison known as Tetanus

[SirViss]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Most weapons come with a sample. Iron Oxide' date=' it provides a wonderful death dealing poison known as Tetanus [/quote']

Actually Tetanus is cause by a bacteria.

Infection usually originates from a contaminated wound, often a cut or deep puncture wound.

The "rusty nail causes tetanus" is more because the nail is probably dirty, not rusty.

 

The Mongols (IIRC) dipped the tips of their arrows in horse-manure, which almost guarranteed someone that received a deep wound from their arrows to come down with Lockjaw (i.e.: Tetanus)

[azato]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Actually Tetanus is cause by a bacteria.

 

The "rusty nail causes tetanus" is more because the nail is probably dirty, not rusty.

 

The Mongols (IIRC) dipped the tips of their arrows in horse-manure, which almost guarranteed someone that received a deep wound from their arrows to come down with Lockjaw (i.e.: Tetanus)

 

 

I got bit by a dog and I needed to get a tetanus shot. I don't care much for shots so I asked the doctor if I waited until I got lockjaw symptoms, could I then come in for a tetanus shot. He told me the story of his first patient as an intern in the hospital. He was supposed to get information out of the guy and they fellow could not communicate very well. The doctor went to lunch and came back afterward to finish up on getting the information and the man had died! So, I took the shot.

 

So after any battle people that were injured could have a chance of getting tetanus.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Tetanus apparently can't get a good foothold in a wound that bleeds much at all. The reason rusty nails are connected so strongly to tetanus is because deep punctures clot fairly quickly, leaving little chance that any tetanus bacteria deep down in the wound were bled out. Rust flakes off fairly easily, so a rusty nail can conceivably leave behind a good dose of bacteria that won't be bled out.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Which actually explains quite a lot about tetanus in general. Now.

 

Build Lockjaw in HERO.

[Markdoc]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Tetanus apparently can't get a good foothold in a wound that bleeds much at all. The reason rusty nails are connected so strongly to tetanus is because deep punctures clot fairly quickly' date=' leaving little chance that any tetanus bacteria deep down in the wound were bled out. Rust flakes off fairly easily, so a rusty nail can conceivably leave behind a good dose of bacteria that won't be bled out.[/quote']

 

Not quite accurate (although as a general rule it's OK) - the bacteria that causes tetanus does so by producing a toxin and since it attaches to, and grows quite happily in, tissue, you'd need to bleed like a fire hydrant to "wash it out". But it only produces the toxin when available oxygen is very low. So deep wounds into muscle (like for example, a rusty nail or an arrow) *are* in fact more likely to give you tetanus (also gangrene - same concept, different bacteria) not because of anything to do with bleeding, but because that tissue has a relatively low oxygen content. The wound might actually bleed quite a lot if blood vessels close to the surface have been harmed, but still be low oxygen deeper in.

 

Open, shallow wounds, on the other hand, are likely to be better oxygenated, and so your chance of tetanus is less. Being bigger, they are also likely to bleed like nobody's business.

 

So, nails, rusty or otherwise (and a rusty nail is likely to leave chunks of rust which might well contain lots of bacteria) can easily go several inches into tissue (especially if you step on one) are a high risk for what we call "deep infections" that are more likely to have serious consequences - you really have work at it to give yourself a knife wound that deep.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

On the topic of poisons, in game I tend to go "realistic". Prior to the modern era there were very few poisons that you could use as weapons - the things that were poisonous tended to taste really bad and be organic (so they don't last long).

 

So there's not much in the way of blade venom available. The exception is "magical alchemical stuff" but that's not available for purchase, generally: it has to be paid for with points, in which case it is up to the player as to how it is built.

 

For magical critters or assassin types who do have poison, it can be lethal (killing attack), convulsive (usually defined as DEX and STR drain), hallucinatory (mental illusions) or paralysing (I usually do this as SPD drain rather than entangle) or blinding (flash or darkness: only affects target). Poisons with long-term effects might use transform.

 

Most of these either have gradual effect, or they have a low number of DC and continuous, uncontrollable. So for example, a poison that will kill over a period of days might be 1d6 HKA, continuous, uncontrollable, NND (life support:immunity), does body, extra time: 1 day, STR doesn't add, 6 charges. In that case, the poison would do 1d6 24 hours after the first exposure and another 5d6 at the rate of 1d6 per day. That'd kill your normal person in a week, unless he got some healing. It'd make even a big tough guy pretty sick.

 

The alternate build is simply 6d6 HKA NND (life support:immunity), does body, STR doesn't add, Gradual effect (1 week), which has some advantages in use (once it's used, the damage is done: it can't be dispelled, unlike the first power), but is much more expensive.

 

cheers, Mark

[Bismark]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

The bacterium that causes tetanus is actually killed by oxygen (which is of course a deadly poison if you don't have the enzymes to cope with it). The bacterium is usually found in the form of spores, which can survive exposure to oxygen (and can also survive boiling in water ) Therefore to get tetanus, either live ('vegetative state') bacteria have to get into a nice deep wound very quickly, or the spores need to get into the wound - when the top of the wound closes off the oxygen level will then drop low enough for them to germinate and do 'that nasty thing that they do'.

 

Symptoms could be simulated by DEX Drain (the body loses control of its muscles and the spasming gets gradually worse), probably cumulative, leading to a complete inability to move as all the body's muscles attempt to contract at once (this can have really nasty side-effects like ruptured joints, torn ligaments and tendons, and even broken bones). Eventually the poor sap cannot breathe because, among other things, the muscles controlling the body cavity and diaphragm are merrily spasming away out of sequence .

 

If you want the whole jolly story, here is a fun link:

 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/niP/publications/pink/tetanus.pdf

 

 

Now the Saxon (alleged) habit of tipping their spears and javelins with human manure opens a whole new can of worms (mainly the introduction of faecal coliform bacteria in to the poor victim's bloodstream). Now if the victim is well-nourished and in good physical shape, they will just feel distinctly unwell for a while and the wound will produce (as they used to say in the 'old days') 'laudable pus'; if the poor unfortunate is in bad shape the bacteria will have a merry time reproducing in his/her circulatory system producing a bacteraemia ("septicaemia") and chance of death within a couple of days is frighteningly high.

 

The first case can be simulated with STR and END drains (if using Long-Term END, the ability to regenerate that will be severely compromised as well); the second case will be a bad case of 'what NOT to Drain' (STR, CON, END, STUN, BODY and even INT and EGO as the fever robs the subject of the ability to think lucidly). Cheerful, huh?

 

Shallow wounds can be cleaned reasonably well - even unboiled river/well water is better then nothing for this, but [as MarkDoc said] it's the deep puncture wounds that cause the most concern as they are very difficult to clean properly.

[Old Man]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

The weapon poisons I use vary depending on the application. For example, if I intended to assassinate someone using a crossbow, then I would apply a guaranteed-fatal poison like ricin to the bolt. What matters there is the certainty of the kill, not the time.

 

Conversely, in melee combat I like to use curare or some variant thereof. It's more of a paralytic, but it will take effect in the timeframe of a fight. It may not kill my adversary, but impairment is all I need; after all, I'm armed.

[Bismark]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Now Old Man has got us back on topic after my earlier ramblings, here are a couple of obvious weapon poisons; they do, howver, have the disadvantage of not being available outside of tropical forests:

 

1. Curare, extracted from a large liana (vine) Potent muscle relaxant - just shuts you muscles down (basically the opposite of what the tetanus toxin does, and similar to what botulinus toxin does - 'flaccid paralysis' ).

 

2. Tree frog venoms such as Batrachotoxin - some frogs are not called 'poison arrow frogs' for nothing (although, given what uses the native peoples out them to, 'poison dart frogs' would be more accurate).

 

Have a look at the following website - it has lots of gloriously unpleasant information (including structural formulae for the chemistry freaks [like me ] among us):

 

http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/index.html

[Old Man]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

That guy is a freak. Informative site though. What's missing is storage information--how long can you expect your poison dart to stay effective, how do you store collected latrotoxins, etc.

[Curufea]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

You could generically apply the same life exptancy as any food to it. Without preservatives.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Weapon poisons: show me what you use

 

Mmm. Preservatives. The single force extending human life.

 

Poison: Mental Entangle, "Perfect Preservation," + EDM. Target is put into a stasis (I call this poison "Fly in Amber," in case anyone is curious) from which he does not awaken; the SFX is that he's effectively a corpse. The design is a mental entangle combined with EDM (although I suppose if I were to sit down and really write it out, it would boil down to a cheatery EDM).