A general question? What about Shields?

[Curufea]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

Curufea' date=' did you ever get the chance to try SITS?[/quote']

 

I haven't even played AV:T yet. None of my gaming friends have the slightest interest in anything that even hints that maths could be involved.

[Curufea]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

SITS is fleet combat.

AV:T is more for individual ships. If you've ever listened to OTR scifi (or watched Flash Gordon or similar) about hurtling around at high speeds in spaceships more akin to submarines than the luxury apartments of Trek - then AV:T is what you want. It even takes into account inertia.

[Curufea]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

I could really do with a good 3D combat modeller, but I doubt it's something that I could pull off with variations in height from stands and very specific models. The great thing about games like G-Police, Descent Freespace & Colony Wars is that they really nailed the radar design. Not only is it always relative to you, but the disc also shows relative height away from you - you know someone is 'lined up' on the radar (and how to get to them) when they share your plane (your 'angle of attack') and your ships orientation (your x-axis, or your facing). Then you can focus on pulling the trigger and making with the blasting.

 

This is best done as raw narration IME, or you need an actual star-ship combat modeller.

 

I remember Elite. With the red lines above and below your horizon plane for height. Possibly it was the first computer game to do so.

[Spence]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

SITS is fleet combat.

AV:T is more for individual ships. If you've ever listened to OTR scifi (or watched Flash Gordon or similar) about hurtling around at high speeds in spaceships more akin to submarines than the luxury apartments of Trek - then AV:T is what you want. It even takes into account inertia.

 

 

 

Actually SITS is for individual ships too. It is the game I have and it is designed for each person to control 1-3 ships max. The movement system is still vectored thrust like AV:T but without fuel. Also the enemy is easier to spot due to the high energy output of thier wedge. Unless you drop the wedge, go silent and ballistic. They are working on a Fleet simulator, but I don't know any details. If I understood things correctly, they plan on getting the AV:T fleet game out first, and then the SITS fleet game. Once again, I don't know for sure, but the impression I get is SITS is a simplified version of game mechanics perfected in AV:T and the fleet version of the game will follow the same development model.

[Curufea]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

I haven't bought SITS yet. I want to get the new revised version of AV:T first. And in order to qualify for the discount, I need the serial number for my current AV:T. Which is, unfortunately, lent out to a friend at the moment

[Spence]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

I haven't bought SITS yet. I want to get the new revised version of AV:T first. And in order to qualify for the discount' date=' I need the serial number for my current AV:T. Which is, unfortunately, lent out to a friend at the moment [/quote']

 

Well if you like Webers series, SITS does an awsome job of simulating the ship to ship combat. If the fleet game evercomes out, SIFT (Saganami Island Fleet Training), I was toying with an idea for a StarHero game. Young JO's of the RMN on anti-piracy patrol in the Silesian Confederacy.

[Curufea]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

I haven't read any Honor Harrington yet. I'm somewhat worried about Mary Sueism. I have read the Miles Vorkosigan series though, so probably would like it. Really it's just a matter of remembering to ask one of my friends to lend me the first book.

[Spence]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

I haven't read any Honor Harrington yet. I'm somewhat worried about Mary Sueism. I have read the Miles Vorkosigan series though' date=' so probably would like it. Really it's just a matter of remembering to ask one of my friends to lend me the first book.[/quote']

 

Mary Sueism?

 

Forgive me, but I am more than a little dense with somethings and fail to make connections sometimes. The phrase infers you write, and it sounds like you are limiting what you read to avoid cross contamination. Am I close?

[Curufea]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

Not limiting - it's just that some books and series are lower priority to read if I don't think I'll enjoy them very much. I don't write - just most of my friends do.

[Spence]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

Not limiting - it's just that some books and series are lower priority to read if I don't think I'll enjoy them very much. I don't write - just most of my friends do.

 

I understand.

 

If you read the Honor Harrington books you will find that the first few are pure Space Opera. But later on (book 5ish) when she gains rank the stories change from individual adventure/combat to a lot of high level strategic planning and politics. Several large scale fleet actions, but not as many small ship clashes. I enjoyed the entire series and the new series, "The Shadow of Saganami" picks up with young JO's again. Only one volume so far, but hopefully more on the way. Saganami is the name of the Royal Manticorian Navy's leading Academy.

[Old Man]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

A different idea for ship shields:

 

BODY

 

If the shields stop damage until they're down, just buy more BODY for the ship (add Advantages and Limitations to taste) and as the 'ship' takes damage, it just comes off of the 'shields' first.

 

Good for 'all damage taken weakens the shields' instead of 'energy over X amount goes through'.

 

I was going to suggest using BODY (sfx Shields) too.

 

My favorite method is using Entangle Barriers, even if they're not exactly legal.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

Now I never thought to use entangle barriers as shields, have to consider that as a means to simulate the dropping ability to stop damage. I also think you could do it in a legal manner if you worked on it.

[Curufea]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

I understand.

 

If you read the Honor Harrington books you will find that the first few are pure Space Opera. But later on (book 5ish) when she gains rank the stories change from individual adventure/combat to a lot of high level strategic planning and politics. Several large scale fleet actions, but not as many small ship clashes. I enjoyed the entire series and the new series, "The Shadow of Saganami" picks up with young JO's again. Only one volume so far, but hopefully more on the way. Saganami is the name of the Royal Manticorian Navy's leading Academy.

 

The Praxis series is really good for fleet battles as well (I highly recommend it) - I went to Ad Astra recently (as a friend returned AV:T and I wanted to buy the new 1.5 version with the discount) and I noticed that SITS comes with the complete series of Honor Harrington ebooks as well. It's quite tempting to buy. But expensive.

[Spence]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

The Praxis series is really good for fleet battles as well (I highly recommend it) - I went to Ad Astra recently (as a friend returned AV:T and I wanted to buy the new 1.5 version with the discount) and I noticed that SITS comes with the complete series of Honor Harrington ebooks as well. It's quite tempting to buy. But expensive.

 

Actually the same disc comes with each hardback.

 

The disk that was in "At All Costs" had:

 

Orientation

A David Weber Reading List

Baen.com

Baen Free Library

Art Gallery

Saganami Island Tactical Simulator (Advertisement):

The Great Resizing document

 

Dahak series:

Mutineer's Moon

The Armegeddon Inheritance

Heirs of Empire

Empire from the Ashes

 

Starfire series with Steve White:

Crusade

Insurrection

In Death Ground

The Shiva Option

The Stars at War

The Stars at War II

 

Empire of Man series with John Ringo

March Upcountry

March to the Sea

March to the Stars

We Few

 

Standalone books:

Bolo! created by Keith Laumer

The Apocalypse Troll

The Excalibur Alternative

Path of the Fury

1633 with Eric Flint

 

The Honor Harrington series:

On Basilisk Station

The Honor of the Queen

The Short Victorious War

Field of Dishonor

Flag in Exile

Honor Among Enemies

In Enemy Hands

Echoes of Honor

Ashes of Victory

War of Honor

At All Costs

 

The Honor Harrington anthologies:

More Than Honor

Worlds of Honor

Changer of Worlds

Service of the Sword

 

Saganami Island Series:

The Shadow of Saganami

 

The Honor Harrington Universe novels:

Crown of Slaves with Eric Flint

 

Bahzell series (fantasy):

Oath of Swords

The War God's Own

Wind Rider's Oath

 

 

All the novel are complete and the disk is annotated:

 

NOTICE: This disk and its contents may be copied and shared, but NOT sold. All commercial rights reserved.

[Spence]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

Try going to http://www.baen.com/library/ for free copies of several titles.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

I forgot to mention that with shields as BODY, you can then throw in Regeneration that only affects shield BODY. Plus perhaps a low-value Force Field (the shields can continuously take this much punishment and instantly regenerate themselves) with a Limitation that it goes down when shield BODY is zero.

[SteveZilla]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

I forgot to mention that with shields as BODY' date=' you can then throw in Regeneration that only affects shield BODY. Plus perhaps a low-value Force Field (the shields can continuously take this much punishment and instantly regenerate themselves) with a Limitation that it goes down when shield BODY is zero.[/quote']

 

This is pretty close to modeling the way shields work in the PC game, Master Of Orion II. Weapons below a certain damage value simply can't damage a strong shield no matter how much is fired at the ship.

 

This was seen in (at least) one episode of ST:tnG. A ship was firing *lasers* at the Enterprise (which wasn't even feeling it), and Worf (IIRC) stated they had no chance of getting though the shields.

 

I recall a something similar in Car Wars (or maybe GURPS Autoduel), where Armor had a Hardness Factor that the weapon's damage had to exceed before it could do *any* damage to the armor.

[SteveZilla]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

Hi Folks: Here is something I am doing. This is really simply another application of Side Effect that is just more defined. First I'll paste in the text from my campaign doc then I'll show you an example:

 

 

 

Here is an example:

Shields - Fore: FF (20 PD/20 ED), Adjustable (Faceable; +1/4) (50 Active Points); OIF Bulky (Shield Generator; -1), Fragmenting Defense (-1), Limited Coverage 90 Degrees (-1/2)

 

I just buy that four times.

 

It sounds good, with (IMO) one small detail. The fact that BODY past Defenses *also* lowers the defense value by the amount past defenses. Presuming average rolls, it would take only 5-6 hits to eliminate the shield because of geometric progression of damage past defenses. And if we are talking about very stong shields and very powerful weapons (like a 63 DEF and a 64 average damage), the BODY past defenses might well destroy the ship before the shields are completely gone, going in a progression of 1, 3, 7, 15, etc. for each hit.

 

Yes, there is a 50-50 chance for the first damage roll to be below the DEF of the shields, but that is counterbalanced by the same chance for a higher than average roll -- which would strip much more of the shield away.

[Nyrath]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

Ummmm, a little bit of thread necromancy? Scuba Hero's last post was in 2006.

[SteveZilla]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

Ummmm' date=' a little bit of thread necromancy? Scuba Hero's last post was in 2006.[/quote']

 

Buahahaha! Soon I shall have raised an ARMY of undead threads to do my bidding! ... Umm, did I say that out loud?

 

Yes, just a bit of TN. But I have been interested in how people have done/built ship shields in Hero System, and haven't found a whole lot so far. I had just done a search in Star Hero on "shields", and was only partly paying attention to when the posts happened.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

Buahahaha! Soon I shall have raised an ARMY of undead threads to do my bidding! ... Umm' date=' did I say that out loud? [/quote']

 

That would be like Aquaman's ability to command legions of fanatically loyal clams, right?

[SteveZilla]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

That would be like Aquaman's ability to command legions of fanatically loyal clams' date=' right?[/quote']

 

Quiet you! Or I shall weave my undead threads into your DOOOOOoooooommmm! And a quite nice burial shroud.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

This is a great thread, so no worries on your foul rites here, Steve.

 

I think the biggest decision to make is, what type of shields will you have? ID4 Impenetrable Green Field of Doom? Star Trek Suspense Extension Shields? Star Wars "only deflects shots that miss anyways" Deflectors?

 

10 Points of Defense all but cancels 2d6 attacks.

 

Force Field and Force Wall best represent the ID4 "Wall of Energy" type shields.

 

The Shields of Star Trek might be modeled simply by Force Field / Force Wall, but they do a few other things. I'd actually build them as Ablative FF + Damage Reduction linked, to where the Damage Reduction turns off once the FF fails an ablative check ("Shields are down!")

 

And Deflectors, a NCC Missile Deflection with a Trigger, possibly combined with Damage Reduction as above.

 

Also, what do your shields block? More realistic "shields" might be intense electromagnetic fields or countermeasures; great against things like plasma or particle weapons, possibly against metallic projectiles or missiles. But lasers, non-ferrous projectiles, and... well, truth be told, I'm hoping someone smarter comes along and explains what EM "Shields" might actually defend against, and more importantly what they wouldn't protect you from.

 

Certainly the shields we see in movies are not realistic by any current imaginings of science, but I know that various EM countermeasures exist, and if we can build a particle accelerator with enough control to not blow up the planet, we should be able to use some of the technology in place there to create some defense against the weapons imagined from these scientific endeavors.

[Litvyak]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

I have all of the old Renegade Legion games by FASA sitting on my shelf. In that setting shields are extremely effective, but consume tremendous amounts of power. To keep power consumption reasonable they are flickered on and off like a strobe. The more powerful the shield generator the more often the shield is on. The game effect of this is that the target's shields applied a negative modifier to the attacker's hit roll.

 

So, borrowing this (uncharacteristically for FASA) simple mechanic, I propose using DCV for shields. DCV bought for this purpose would likely need the Uncontrolled advantage and the Uses Endurance limitation, along with possible limitations for partial coverage if you wanted independent facings, or to limit the weapon types it works against.

 

I admit I'm new to the Hero System, so I don't know if I'm missing some reason why this wouldn't work.

[Nyrath]

Re: A general question? What about Shields?

 

If you look at the mechanism of the Renegade Legion shield, they would make more sense as a Damage Reduction modifier. But a DCV makes sense as well.