Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

[Vestnik]

Ok, say I have 5" Flight, Megascale (1" = 10,000 km) (20 Active Points). I'm zipping along at my crazy fast megaspeed. Someone zaps me with a 12d6 Dispel Flight.

 

What happens? Is it just as easy to drain this 5" Megaflight as it is to drain regular 10" Flight? Seems counterintuitive. Am I missing something?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

Ok, say I have 5" Flight, Megascale (1" = 10,000 km) (20 Active Points). I'm zipping along at my crazy fast megaspeed. Someone zaps me with a 12d6 Dispel Flight.

 

What happens? Is it just as easy to drain this 5" Megaflight as it is to drain regular 10" Flight? Seems counterintuitive. Am I missing something?

Dispell works against active points doesn't it?

 

Then it zaps the Megscaled Flight viciously.

 

Just because the SFX of 5" megascale Flight is someone moving enormously faster than someone with 10" of normal Flight, it doesn't mean that the power itself is more robust against attack.

 

In the case it is in fact weaker than 10" Flight.

 

TB

[Vestnik]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

So the same power that would immobilize both a turtle (1" movement) and an F-16 (5" Megascale) might have little effect against a cheetah (say 20" movement)?

 

Mechanically it makes sense, but it sticks in my craw.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

So the same power that would immobilize both a turtle (1" movement) and an F-16 (5" Megascale) might have little effect against a cheetah (say 20" movement)?

 

Mechanically it makes sense, but it sticks in my craw.

Then build the F-16 on 1000" of Flight.

 

An F-16 is equipment after all, who cares about points?

 

TB

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

So the same power that would immobilize both a turtle (1" movement) and an F-16 (5" Megascale) might have little effect against a cheetah (say 20" movement)?

 

Mechanically it makes sense, but it sticks in my craw.

 

Well, it is your game so you can change it. You might also want to be looking closely at the SFX of adjustment powers that you are allowing that would allow them to apply against an F-16 and a cheetah.

 

You could add a requirement for adjustment powers that players want to affect megascale movement to take an adder to their power - that they would also have to justify. Or as GM you could simply not build an F-16 using Megascale....

 

One of the problems with Hero is that you have to set the World parameters early on so that power interactions work the way you want them - so all undead characters would have to take certain limitations so that a priest brandishing a holy symbol could hold them back, drive them off or damage them.

 

If you build F-16s using Megascale then you think about the consequences and if you don't like them - then change them.

 

 

Doc

 

PS: Aww! Teflon Bill got there before me and was more to the point...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

A couple of points here.

 

1. (being facetious) no dispel flight, no matter the size is likely to have an effect ont he turtle or cheetah.

 

2. Dispel flight is always going to be difficult to justify: it stops magical flight, winged flight, jet powered flight....that's why I tend to be a bit particular about dispels and supresses and ask for some indication of how they work - the PC gets a limitation if they don't effect everything that flies. In fact I think there is a strong argument for making all adjustment powers sfx based.

 

3. The other thing you can do with the F16 would be to buy 'difficult to dispel' as an advantage if it should be hard to stop the engine: depends how it works though: throw a turtle or a cheetah into the air intake and that would make a pretty good dispel flight.

 

4. A bit of a Hero truism is that if it feels wrong, you probably didn't build it to accurately reflect what you wanted. Part of the joy of the system . I can't think of another system that allows you to do this anyway: DnD has dispel magic so if you are flying with magic, you fall, but if you have 'natural' wings or are flying a jet plane working on pure mechanical principles, the dispel magic has no effect - you can't always assume that a power out of the book is good to go without some tinkering. Well, you can, but it is not likely to make much sense on occasion.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

2. Dispel flight is always going to be difficult to justify: it stops magical flight, winged flight, jet powered flight....that's why I tend to be a bit particular about dispels and supresses and ask for some indication of how they work - the PC gets a limitation if they don't effect everything that flies. In fact I think there is a strong argument for making all adjustment powers sfx based.

 

I don't know, any type of Kinetic Energy manipulation, Inertia Drain or Graviton Manipulation power could probably work for something like this...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

I don't know' date=' any type of Kinetic Energy manipulation, Inertia Drain or Graviton Manipulation power could probably work for something like this...[/quote']

 

I can see that for a power that stops all movement, but just draining flight is actually harder to justify I reckon.

[Vestnik]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

 

2. Dispel flight is always going to be difficult to justify: it stops magical flight, winged flight, jet powered flight....that's why I tend to be a bit particular about dispels and supresses and ask for some indication of how they work - the PC gets a limitation if they don't effect everything that flies. In fact I think there is a strong argument for making all adjustment powers sfx based.

 

I've thought about that. If I have a Drain that is a poison, does LS: Immunity to all Poisons automatically protect against it, or is that a limitation on the Drain?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

I've thought about that. If I have a Drain that is a poison' date=' does LS: Immunity to all Poisons automatically protect against it, or is that a limitation on the Drain?[/quote']

 

Depends who you ask: the rules purist will tell you that LS poison is not a defence to a power.

 

The sfx master will tell you that 'Unaffected By Poison' should mean just that and it should be a perfect protection, even from a power.

 

Personally I'd remove the conflict and buy the poison attack with the limitation 'does not work against LS: Poison'. Everyone is happy.

 

Hero: good design heads off more problems than arguing over interpretation of the rules ever could.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

If you picture the flight as more "potent" in some way than regular flight (but don't want to spend all the extra points to not use megascale), maybe you can buy some Power Defense with a limitaion that it only protects your flight.

[SirViss]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

Well, often Megascale flight is a slot in a "Flight powers" Multipower, so the character can flight at "combat" speeds too. So just use all the left-over points to add "Difficult to Dispel" to the power, until the subjective active points are equal to the other flight mode(s).

 

Of course, this assumes that Dispel is the power you have the most problems with.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

In fact I think there is a strong argument for making all adjustment powers sfx based.

Amen to this. Halleluhiah, brother!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

So the same power that would immobilize both a turtle (1" movement) and an F-16 (5" Megascale) might have little effect against a cheetah (say 20" movement)?

 

Mechanically it makes sense, but it sticks in my craw.

 

As Sean points out, that same Dispel Flight will affect several SFX of flight. It will cancel wings, break a jetpack, turn off (and break) a jet engine, nullify telekinetic hovering and even prevent my ninja from walking up walls and the Flash from running. It won't affect a turtle or a cheetah at all, but it will affect most birds. Not all birds, some can't fly, and some can soar by gliding but can't actually take true flight.

 

So, if you can build a Dispel Flight with a SFX that would logically explain how it affects what it affects without affecting what it doesn't, then you're good. If not, then you had better modify the Power in some way or find another way to accomplish what you're trying to do.

 

Sean, I don't think Adjustent Powers should be SFX based. I can think of a number of Drains or whatever that should be versus a mechanic rather than a SFX. Granted, the vast majority make more sense as SFX based, but if you start with requiring a SFX there's really no way to "step back" to affect just a single Power/Characteristic regardless of SFX.

[schir1964]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

Sean' date=' I don't think Adjustment Powers should be SFX based. I can think of a number of Drains or whatever that should be versus a mechanic rather than a SFX. Granted, the vast majority make more sense as SFX based, but if you start with requiring a SFX there's really no way to "step back" to affect just a single Power/Characteristic regardless of SFX.[/quote']

I don't think Sean meant to say they must only be SFX based, just that it should be the default since as you say, the vast majority of uses would be SFX based as opposed to the rare mechanic based ones.

 

My own solution to the Adjustment Powers allows you build the mechanic only versions with an Advantage, since you are basically getting to affect an infinite number of SFX within a single mechanic.

 

Reference: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42607

 

I tend to agree that problem is with the Adjustment Powers in this specific case.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[gojira]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

2. Dispel flight is always going to be difficult to justify: it stops magical flight, winged flight, jet powered flight....that's why I tend to be a bit particular about dispels and supresses and ask for some indication of how they work - the PC gets a limitation if they don't effect everything that flies. In fact I think there is a strong argument for making all adjustment powers sfx based.

 

It depends on the specific situation, but in general I agree whole heartedly with you.

 

Hero lets the GM do practically anything, but the players should still be bound by the rules of the world the GM creates. If the only Dispels in your world are EMP pulses (Dispel: Electronic Devices) and magic dispels (Dispel: Magic), then that's it. No player should be allowed to purchase Dispel: Flight.

 

I do think it's impossible to predict how all this is going to work out in the beginning. A player may convince a GM that Dispel: Flight is a workable idea for some SFX, and the GM may decide that buying Megascale Flight on all his aircraft wasn't a great idea. It doesn't hurt to go back and tweak stuff. Aircraft can be given Power Defense, or tweaked so that their Flight is harder to Dispel. It happens, and being flexible is good.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

Then build the F-16 on 1000" of Flight.

 

An F-16 is equipment after all, who cares about points?

 

TB

 

So I can pay +5 points to get *two*? Wow!

 

 

Sorry, sorry. I'll let the discussion get back on track now.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

Well, often Megascale flight is a slot in a "Flight powers" Multipower, so the character can flight at "combat" speeds too. So just use all the left-over points to add "Difficult to Dispel" to the power, until the subjective active points are equal to the other flight mode(s).

 

Of course, this assumes that Dispel is the power you have the most problems with.

 

"Difficult to Dispel" also helps protect against Suppress.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

I don't think Sean meant to say they must only be SFX based, just that it should be the default since as you say, the vast majority of uses would be SFX based as opposed to the rare mechanic based ones.

 

My own solution to the Adjustment Powers allows you build the mechanic only versions with an Advantage, since you are basically getting to affect an infinite number of SFX within a single mechanic.

 

Reference: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42607

 

I tend to agree that problem is with the Adjustment Powers in this specific case.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

What I'm basically saying is that I think it's easier to step up to SFX from specific Power/Characteristic than it is to step back down.

[schir1964]

Re: Adjustment powers vs. Megascale

 

What I'm basically saying is that I think it's easier to step up to SFX from specific Power/Characteristic than it is to step back down.

Oh, right. That is another valid way to do it also.

 

- Christopher Mullins