Realistic daily provisions

[Erkenfresh]

Hello fellow HERO fans. I have a question I am certain you can all answer.

 

I have reason to believe my party may be going on a little bit of a spelunking adventure. For this, I think I need to apply the encumberance rules to prevent them from going down for several months, when realistically they may only be able to survive a week or two.

 

So, my question is, how much would the daily provision for an average person weigh? Also, how much would the torches weigh required to light the cavern for a full day?

 

Thanks in advance!

[SirViss]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

Just a question: Is there an "Underdark" ecology in this campaign?

[McCoy]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

Water available? If not, figure four to six pounds per person per day of water alone.

 

With some fairly concentrated food, let's say beef jerkey and granola bars, half pound to pound of very monotionous food per day. if dehydrated meat and honey, nuts and whole grains not available, double it.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

Water should be available in the caverns, but it might notbe drinkable in some places. So they'd be wise to take their own. No, there is no Underdark ecology though they might come across a few monsters. It wouldn't be enough to sustain themselves with for very long though.

[Markdoc]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

So' date=' my question is, how much would the daily provision for an average person weigh? Also, how much would the torches weigh required to light the cavern for a full day?[/quote']

 

McCoy's already covered the food aspect, so I'll just note that most of these things - bread, dried meat, etc *don't* take to getting wet very well. So the players better be careful to keep them dry.

 

With regard to light, the suggestions in the Fantasy Hero book are laughably inaccurate and seem to have been lifted straight from D&D. We've made reproduction medieval style torches - each one weighs 2-3 pounds and will burn for about 4-6 hours - though they occasionally flare up and burn out in about 15 minutes, if they actually catch fire. That matches what we get from medieval manuscripts. A torch will gve enough light that you can see 30-40 feet - half that clearly (assuming your eyes are adjusted to the dark, which they will soon be underground).

 

Candles are better, although also easier to put out (use a lantern). Beeswax burns faster than modern candles which are made of paraffin, but if you have alchemists, they might be able to make good quality candles - the technique is not hard.

 

A one pound, decent quality candle will burn for about 2 days (that's the squat, thick type - the tall, thin candles used for dinner parties (4 to a pound) are only good for about 6 hours each). The cheapo tea candles we buy come 50 to a 5 pound bag (well, 2 kilos, but close enough) and burn for 3-5 hours each (they're supposed to last 6, but rarely do). A half dozen can light a room well enough to read easily (though it *is* hard on your eyes...) - so again a pound gives you about 1 1/2 days light. The drawback is that it's not very bright - you could only see about 20-30 feet and clearly for maybe half that (it would be better with a reflector, but I have never tried that).

 

With regard to oil lamps, the old roman/greek ones were pretty crap. But if you have oil which is volatile enough to be used in ye olde oile flaske, much beloved by adventurers for setting fire to things, then you have oil volatile enough to be used in a lamp. In that case, 1 liter of oil (about 2 lbs - the size of a soda bottle) will give you about 36 hours of light - much brighter than a candle or torch.

 

cheers, Mark

[sbarron]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

With regard to light...

cheers, Mark

I have no idea if you information is accurate. But that doesn't even matter. You stated it authoritatively, concisely, and with conviction. Plus, you covered all the typical non-magical light you might find in a fantasy setting. As far as I'm concerned, this post is all I'll ever need to run fantasy games in the dark. Excellent post!

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

Water available? If not' date=' figure four to six pounds per person per day of water alone.[/quote']If you are doing any amount of exertion (i.e. sweating) this amount of water will have to go way up.

 

Army recomendation is 1 quart an hour to stay reasonably hydrated, but no more than 3 gallons a day (to prevent hyponutremia)

 

So, you're going to want 8-12lbs of water a day at least.

 

TB

[Markdoc]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

I have no idea if you information is accurate. But that doesn't even matter. You stated it authoritatively' date=' concisely, and with conviction. Plus, you covered all the typical non-magical light you might find in a fantasy setting. As far as I'm concerned, this post is all I'll ever need to run fantasy games in the dark. Excellent post! [/quote']

 

Thanks! It is accurate though. This doesn't come from the web or books - I've had lots of experience with all of the light sources mentioned above. Especilly candles. At a guess, we probably have 20 candlesticks and 50-100 candles at home right now - scandinavian tradition for dinner parties is candles, not electric lights and old fashioned torches made to medieval patterns are used for outdoor shows (the yearly vikingespil in Fredrickssund, for example).

 

Oddly, I've probably had least experience with the parraffin lamps, which are the most modern of the lot.

 

cheers, Mark

[keithcurtis]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

I'll add that from personal experience, torches suck as a light source. The light jumps crazily and it is difficult to keep them out of everyone's field of vision. A well-crafted directable lamp is your best bet.

For a Live Game (I refuse to use the word LARP, since we were doing it before the word existed), we made torches using wooden handles with kerosene-soaked tampons attached to them. They were very efficient fuel-wise.

 

Keith "Curses the darkness" Curtis

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

Kerosene-soaked tampons? Hmmm, who figured that one out?

 

Alright so here's what we got:

 

Food - 2 pounds per normal person per day, 8 pounds for the half-giant

Water - 8 pounds per normal person per day, 32 pounds for the half-giant

Light - About 1 pound per day per oil lamp (negligible)

 

For a party of four normal sized people and one half-giant, that comes out to 16 pounds of food and 64 pounds of water per day. I have a feeling the half-giant will get to carry most of this.

 

Oh, did I mention the half-giant is claustrophobic? Should be interesting.

[Cancer]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

That 8 pounds of water sounds right from another historical perspective. For a long time, the Royal Navy daily water ration was a gallon. 1 gallon = 3.785 liters; at 20 C, water density is 0.998 g/cm3, gives 3.78 kg, which is 8.33 pounds.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

Kerosene-soaked tampons? Hmmm' date=' who figured that one out?[/quote']

 

Actually, it was a guy in our group who was an ex-special forces soldier from the Viet Nam War, who also had an extensive theater background.

 

Keith "A surprisingly good combination of skill sets." Curtis

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

Actually, it was a guy in our group who was an ex-special forces soldier from the Viet Nam War, who also had an extensive theater background.

 

Keith "A surprisingly good combination of skill sets." Curtis

We used them in Boy Scouts (one of the only times I actually came in direct contact with tampons in my youth, beyond seeing them in the bathroom at home)

 

They were called smudge-pots. The tampon worked as a wick for the kerosene (which was surprisingly hard to light when used as a camp fire accelerant, lighter fluid is much more inflamable)

 

TB

[LoresLost]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

That 8 pounds of water sounds right from another historical perspective. For a long time' date=' the Royal Navy daily water ration was a gallon. 1 gallon = 3.785 liters; at 20 C, water density is 0.998 g/cm3, gives 3.78 kg, which is 8.33 pounds.[/quote']

 

Better be, The Gallon (US) is based on a wine taxation measurement (an eight pound wine cask) or so I have been told. The British increased the weight to ten pounds of wine in the early 1800 (thus the difference between the US Gallon and the Imperial Gallon measure of weight.

EDIT: Replaced Pound with Gallon where appropriate.

 

The wine' date=' fluid or liquid gallon is the standard U.S. gallon since the early 19th century. The wine gallon, which some sources relate to the volume occupied by eight medieval merchant pounds of wine, was at one time defined as the volume of a cylinder six inches deep and seven inches in diameter, i.e. 6·3½²·π = 230.90706 in³. It had been redefined during the reign of Queen Anne, in 1706, as 231 in³ exactly (3 × 7 × 11 in³), which is the result of the earlier definition with π approximated to 22⁄7. Although the wine gallon had been used for centuries for import duty purposes there was no legal standard of it in the Exchequer and a smaller gallon (224 in³) was actually in use, so this statute became necessary. It remains the U.S. definition today.[/quote']

 

I am just full of equally useless knowledge. (And I actually learned this from another source but Wikipedia is easier (and safer) to cut and paste from.)

[Curufea]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

If you are doing any amount of exertion (i.e. sweating) this amount of water will have to go way up.

 

Army recomendation is 1 quart an hour to stay reasonably hydrated, but no more than 3 gallons a day (to prevent hyponutremia)

 

So, you're going to want 8-12lbs of water a day at least.

 

TB

 

That's brings up another very good point - The daily provision requirements of the middle ages would be exactly the same as those today.

You could have a look at any logistical sources for the modern army as a starting point - and then find out what equivalents may be available in your setting.

If your setting includes magic or fantasy foods - you could presume that the foods would have the nutritional requirements of modern rations.

[Pavanne]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

That's brings up another very good point - The daily provision requirements of the middle ages would be exactly the same as those today.

You could have a look at any logistical sources for the modern army as a starting point - and then find out what equivalents may be available in your setting.

If your setting includes magic or fantasy foods - you could presume that the foods would have the nutritional requirements of modern rations.

 

If you don't have magic/fantasy foods, the figures from modern logistics will have to be increased. Both mass and (even more so) volume have to go up; modern techniques give more nutrition for less mass and volume.

 

IOW, medieval foods were heavy and bulky.

 

Remember, if the food isn't preserved, well, it will rot. Most food won't be well preserved. The stuff that is well preserved will not have much vitamin C. Scurvy is not fun.

 

Except for the GM.

[Cancer]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

The book Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army, which has been mentioned a number of times before on these boards, is also really good in this context.

 

I had flat-out forgotten the difference between the US gallon and historical gallons. I knew much of it (not the details), but spaced it. Stupid.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

Just looking for a ballpark figure. There's no magical food and definitely no "Create Food" spells.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

 

Remember, if the food isn't preserved, well, it will rot. Most food won't be well preserved. The stuff that is well preserved will not have much vitamin C. Scurvy is not fun.

 

Except for the GM.

 

It's all about the dried fruit.

 

I did a couple of overnight trips for my Ren fair celts back in the day with fairly accurate "iron rations"... Home dried beef, Salt pork & salt fish, seabiscuts and hard tack, Oats, a smigden of spices, a bagful of nuts and a mix of various dried berries & cherries.

Beverage of choice was very watered down wine, about 1 part port to 7 parts water.

Some of the sea biscuts weren't eaten till the next year.... we saved the last of them to celebrate the anniversary.

[Rage]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

We used them in Boy Scouts (one of the only times I actually came in direct contact with tampons in my youth, beyond seeing them in the bathroom at home)

 

They were called smudge-pots. The tampon worked as a wick for the kerosene (which was surprisingly hard to light when used as a camp fire accelerant, lighter fluid is much more inflamable)

 

TB

It really needs a wick or aeration, which is why it's excellent as a firebreathing liquid. I've accidently extinguished torches while adding kero.

[Pavanne]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

It's all about the dried fruit.

 

I did a couple of overnight trips for my Ren fair celts back in the day with fairly accurate "iron rations"... Home dried beef, Salt pork & salt fish, seabiscuts and hard tack, Oats, a smigden of spices, a bagful of nuts and a mix of various dried berries & cherries.

Beverage of choice was very watered down wine, about 1 part port to 7 parts water.

Some of the sea biscuts weren't eaten till the next year.... we saved the last of them to celebrate the anniversary.

 

Well, Erkenfresh said the caverns' water is a little dicy, so you've got to carry plenty of water, including enough to rehydrate the dried fruit (perhaps in the form of "gotta drink more cause I'm so thirsty"), so you don't save much.

 

Also, (I've been told) in the Middle Ages the methods used to dry fruit weren't too good, depending on lots of heat and the hope you got them dried before they went and rotted. While the best method to dry fruit is medium heat and lots of fresh air flow, in the Middle Ages they used pretty much what they used for drying meat: enclosed boxy buildings, high heat, some smoke, and very little air flow.

 

That'll work pass for meat, but is no good for fruit. In fact, in the Middle Ages they pretty much didn't do dried fruit at all.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Realistic daily provisions

 

Well' date=' Erkenfresh said the caverns' water is a little dicy, so you've got to carry plenty of water, [i']including enough to rehydrate the dried fruit[/i] (perhaps in the form of "gotta drink more cause I'm so thirsty"), so you don't save much.

 

Also, (I've been told) in the Middle Ages the methods used to dry fruit weren't too good, depending on lots of heat and the hope you got them dried before they went and rotted. While the best method to dry fruit is medium heat and lots of fresh air flow, in the Middle Ages they used pretty much what they used for drying meat: enclosed boxy buildings, high heat, some smoke, and very little air flow.

 

That'll work pass for meat, but is no good for fruit. In fact, in the Middle Ages they pretty much didn't do dried fruit at all.

 

It really kinda depends on where & when (when referring to the dried fruit thing).The Middle Ages aren't the only historcal period we can look at. In a fantasy campaign, it'd realy be based on how sopisticated the knowledge of healing is. If healers have made the "fruit = No scurvy" connection, then fruit will be incorporated into local rations. Example: Pemmican was originally a native american trail ration. The combonation of dried jerked meat, rendered down fat, nuts, wild grains and dried "forage" fruit such as berries is a complete and sustainable ration that keeps for a good long time. Eating it everyday might encourage you to look for something different, but it'll certainly sustain you. Remember also that rations can be sealed by wrapping in cloth and then dipping in wax to aid in their ability to resist moisture (which , as was noted above, is the big killer of supplies).

 

Clean drinking water was a really big deal, and still is. Alcohol was very common as a feild ration, because you'd be in unfamiliar territory, and wouldn't know if you could trust the water (Henry the 8ths campaign into Spain was crippled when his troops ran out of beer and thousands of his men succumbed to the bloody flux as a result of drinking the local water). Grog developed from both these ideas... Sailors needed to drink, needed fruit to avoid scurvy, and couldn't realy trust the water... so they drank fruit juice spiked with rum