adding a random factor to the game

[ayinde]

hello all

im new to the boards but have read a lot of your posts and i am very impressed with most everyone hear. ok now that i buttered you up a little.

 

i want to take away the point creation system (str, dex,body int ect.) wear you get a base 10 for your stats and replace it with a 3 +2d6 base stat that you roll at the end of your creation prosses. i figger this way you have to truely build your concept using skills and background templates.

 

my system is going to be used for a superhero setting more like 4400 then x-men and have a more year one feal as you can tell im just starting to put it to paper

[BNakagawa]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

Hmm, so your stats range from 5-15, centered on 10.

 

Nobody can start with stats higher than 15 or lower than 5? Or do the templates alter that range?

 

Sounds like gurps.

[Karmakaze]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

Hmm, so your stats range from 5-15, centered on 10.

 

Nobody can start with stats higher than 15 or lower than 5? Or do the templates alter that range?

 

Sounds like gurps.

 

I read it that you spend points on stats and the like without knowing what your base in any given stat will be. Then, once points are spend, you roll to discover what the base is (instead of 10).

[Basil]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

hello all

im new to the boards but have read a lot of your posts and i am very impressed with most everyone hear. ok now that i buttered you up a little.

 

i want to take away the point creation system (str, dex,body int ect.) wear you get a base 10 for your stats and replace it with a 3 +2d6 base stat that you roll at the end of your creation prosses. i figger this way you have to truely build your concept using skills and background templates.

 

my system is going to be used for a superhero setting more like 4400 then x-men and have a more year one feal as you can tell im just starting to put it to paper

 

Poor idea. The players will have to buy Skills with no idea what the roll will be until after they've spent the points. Thus they will either find the roll (and thus the usefulness) of the Skill is much lower than they'd hoped for, or they'll find they wasted points and have a Skill with a roll higher than they have any need for. This, of course, will also reflect on any Power bought with RSR.

 

So I would strongly recommend the players roll their Characteristics at the beginning. Thus they will have some idea what they have to work with.

 

I would even more strongly recommend you can this idea. Random rolls are the opposite of the entire feel of a point-buy system, and IMO, and IME, you will land up making more compromises, arbitrary rulings, and patches to get it to work in practice.

 

The above advice is worth what you paid for it.

[Tarek]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

I wouldn't put it at the end of the character creation process. That's the kind of thing where your hard work in coming up with a character and skill template ends up being blown apart because of a poor roll in a key attribute on which the character depends.

 

Also, this results in some characters having more "points" spent than others, which is also mildly imbalancing, particularily when you get to the lower end (Heroic, Competent Normal, etc).

 

Do so at the beginning of the process, and make sure the characters pay the points for the attributes they rolled before they buy skills, etc.

[ghost-angel]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

Were I one of your players you'd have your head on a pike in seconds.

 

However - if your players agree to this insanity I suggest upping the range a bit, 5-15 is fairly small and truly not exciting in a Supers game.

 

Unless this is supposed to replace your Base Characterisitc and they're buying stats like normal to get over 15 in anything? In which case a good roll might break campaign limits, a bad one might slice a character's idea out from under them.

 

This is just a horrible idea no matter how I think of it.

 

I mean heck, this is the kind of crap that caused me to quit in the first place, were it not for Hero's point based system I wouldn't even be roleplaying today.

[ayinde]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

i see most of you don't care for this idea. to be honest i don't care for a complete point based system I've found the skills you buy for your pc are far more important and there is less min maxing. that said hear is the creation process as i invision it

 

step 1: your concept: as this is a year one game you need a origin what was your character before he had powers. how is he going to be different now with powers

 

step 2: (75/75 from drawbacks)spend points on skills, perks any normal talents basically flush out his background also any non-shakeable flaws this is really not that different than the standard build save that you need not concern yourself with stats and powers if you invision a given stat being a important part of his background you can spent points to raise that base up to 5 ranks (every time you do this your rank max is half i.e 5-3-1) you can also bank points for use on powers later

 

step 3: (75/25 drawback) this is for you to build powers with

 

step 4: first adventure all stats are rolled that day

 

step 5: receive left over points to spend as you with (stat increases must be bought as powers I'm using a 350 hero for this

 

first adventure at full hero level

 

if you really hate it its cool

thanks for reading the post your thought are a lot of help

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

If the concept is roll randomly and deal with the outcomes, then you should try ebay for a copy of Villains and Vigilantes. Either that or use the random hero generation system from the Champions sourcebook.

 

Matt "The-sarcastic-but-helpful-GM" Frisbee

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

What other limits will you impose in game?

 

Many games impose, for example, a cap on damage classes. Let's say my concept is a Brick - high STR, and assume your damage cap is 12d6. How much extra STR can my Brick purchase? If he buys +45 STR and rolls a base 5 STR, he can only do 10 DC damage. I want my character to be able to do campaign max damage (which everyone else will likely have). Now, I'm at the low end of the scale. But, if I buy +55 STR, and roll a 15, I now breach the campaign caps. Martial artists, users of hand attacks, etc. will have similar issues.

 

Some games impose combat value caps. A swing from 5 to 15 DEX is 3 CV's, which can be very significant. If I envision my character as primarily defended by not being hit, and I build so a 15 DEX base will be well defended, rolling a 5 DEX may make the character unviable. If I plan to be viable if I roll a 5 DEX, and I roll a 15, the character may be well nigh unhittable.

 

A 10 point swing on CON can have a significant impact on how easy it is to STUN the character, and a 10 point swing on BOD could be nearly fatal. A mentalist will need to plan Ego around the possibility of rolling a 5, and a superscientist will need to plan INT on the same basis.

 

Too low a PRE can be devestating, while too high a PRE can be overly effective. If I envision my character being a supermodel, or being an ugly duckling, and build this into my background, what happens when the COM dice say otherwise?

 

Note that many stats impact figured characteristics. A character who will be tight on END and Recovery will have to plan around the possibility of low starting values due to low CON (and STR, to some extent) rolls. Speed is figured on 1/10 of DEX, so many players may be annoyed to find they have invested several points in Speed which now serve no useful purpose. As well, a 1 point change in Speed can be frustrating. If I plan on my character having a 5 Speed, but my die roll leaves me with 8 extra points invested, I'm going to spend the extra 2 points and have a 6 Speed fairly early on, rather than having 8 points sit idle for the long term.

 

Even minor gradations have an impact. If my character's background says he's always been athletic, and I then roll 5's for STR and DEX, the background makes no sense. If I invested some points to buy +10 STR and DEX so, if I roll a 5, I still have 15's in those stats, and I roll 15's instead, I now have superhuman levels in both stats.

 

Overall, I echo the sentiments of the majority that Hero's strength is the ability to design the character the player wants, so adding random characteristics is a bad approach overall. However, if you really want to have this random element, I would strongly suggest these rolls be the start of the character generation process, not the end. How can one realistically write up the character's pre-powers history without knowing their pre-powers stats? A Peter Parker background that rolls a high STR, CON, DEX and COM, and low INT and EGO, won't make any more sense than an athletic, popular poor student who rolls low PRE, STR, and COM, but high INT.

 

It bears noting that even D&D, the Great Grandfather of rolling stats, has added a point-based system for determining characteristics in 3e. Before that, many character generation systems in D&D allowed the player to choose which rolls went where, or swap points between statistics. Randomness in character generation isn't always a great thing.

[Tarek]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

Let me show you where the problem lies.

 

Character concept drives character creation, including attributes.

 

Character concept (brilliant college student who becomes a mentalist) calls for high INT and EGO attributes.

Random roll at the end of the process leads to low rolls (5, 6) for INT and EGO. Even with the +5 from having recognized the potential problem ahead of time, the character ends up with INT 10 and EGO 11.

 

Character concept no longer works.

 

Do you see the problem yet?

 

The other problem is that the stats will either cluster around 10 (for those who haven't bought anything) or 15 (for those who did buy the maximum allowed attributes) with little variance.

 

Hero System and Champions has a very strong min/max component to it. This makes it easy to model specific characters and character concepts, but it can also lead to abuses.

 

Why not just impose "Normal characteristic maxima" as a disadvantage everyone gets, worth 0 points, for your campaign? That would get you the effect you want without the irritation of dealing with random rolls for characteristics.

[Chimpira]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

I say try it out and see what happens. As it is your game, if you want to do it that way I do not see anything wrong with it and if your players like it, then more power to you.

 

I have opted for a more random hero game in the past, mainly when I had players that knew the hero system just a little too well for my tastes and I want to shake them up a bit. I would break out Heroes Unlimited and have them roll up characters. I found the system to be pretty limited but for what I wanted I had no problem with it. All truth be told, the game that got me interested in Champions in the first place was called Super World, which had you roll randomly for your stats. After playing that for several years I ran across Champions, liked what I saw a little bit more than Super World and the rest is history.

 

Now, having said that, I would have to admit that the point based system is one of the main draws of the hero system to me. It is in character creation that the player has ultimate control and adding random factors into it can change the direction that you want to go with it. As one GM told me as I had to roll a random background for my fantasy character, "We don't have control of whom we are born to or where, but don't worry it won't mess up your character." I wanted to remark to the GM that we did not have any control of being born with serious physical or mental problems either. I came up with a history and direction that I wanted to go with the character that incorporated why he had a particular fighting style and his enemy. All down the drain with a couple of rolls. I wanted to make a fighter and a fighter I got. Just not one that I really was that interested in playing.

 

Personally I do not think that having your characters roll some random rolls for their stats will make as big as a thud as the others here do but I think it does take away a little bit of the essence of the game. In other words, the ability to make the hero as you had envisioned it. (Of course as a GM I have had to ask people to tone down a few things for game balance but I try not to have my hand in it too much. The characters will have enough changes happen once they hit the game)

 

I hope this wave of people coming at you will not dissuade you from coming to these boards and posting more things. We are usually a happy and lively bunch. I hope to see you more often in the future.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

This is just a horrible idea no matter how I think of it.

 

Interesting idea, and with the right players, it could work a bit, however -

 

Many people play HERO specifically because there is no randomness in character creation (G-A and myself as examples). Part of the joy of the system to us, is the fact we create exactly what we want. Introducing randomness is a bad bad thing to people with that attitude. Personally if I was a player in a HERO game that insisted on randomly rolling stuff for character creation I would walk.

 

Or, more simply

 

No Randomness in Chargen

 

 

Randomness in Chargen

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

i see most of you don't care for this idea. to be honest i don't care for a complete point based system I've found the skills you buy for your pc are far more important and there is less min maxing. that said hear is the creation process as i invision it

 

step 1: your concept: as this is a year one game you need a origin what was your character before he had powers. how is he going to be different now with powers

 

"My character had a fairly tough childhood. He is shy and unathletic, and thus didn't fit in well at school. He was, however, quite intelligent and excelled at his schoolwork, graduating high school at age 16. He went on to excel in university, and is now completing his PhD in medicine, at only age 21. While very succesful academically, he is still viewed by his peers as a nerd/geek, and still has difficulty overcoming his shyness. His scholastic skills are far beyond his years, but his social skills are stunted and undeveloped."

 

There's a petty basic background which would need to be fleshed out, but you get the gist.

 

step 2: (75/75 from drawbacks)spend points on skills' date=' perks any normal talents basically flush out his background also any non-shakeable flaws this is really not that different than the standard build save that you need not concern yourself with stats and powers if you invision a given stat being a important part of his background you can spent points to raise that base up to 5 ranks (every time you do this your rank max is half i.e 5-3-1) you can also bank points for use on powers later [/quote']

 

I would then build my character with relevant skills and disadvantages based on the above. Maybe he spends them all due to his educational background, and maybe not - he's early in his career, so a full 150 points of skills, perks, etc. seems unlikely.

 

step 3: (75/25 drawback) this is for you to build powers with

 

OK - the power suite makes little difference to the example, so I haven't fleshed out what his powers will be.

 

step 4: first adventure all stats are rolled that day

 

Rolls:

 

STR 15

DEX 12

CON 13

BOD 8

INT 5

EGO 9

PRE 11

COM 14

 

That doesn't look much like the nerdy bookworm scientific genius my background envisioned, does it? How does a 5 INT character get close to a PhD at age 21? Why does the shy bookworm have exceptional physical stats, a good PRE and a very high comeliness?

 

step 5: receive left over points to spend as you with (stat increases must be bought as powers I'm using a 350 hero for this

 

I guess I can buy up my INT now, but let's assume my powers have nothing to do with heightened mental abilities - how did I get a PhD by age 21 with a 5 INT?

 

if you really hate it its cool

thanks for reading the post your thought are a lot of help

 

Now, if you and your players like the "random" aspect, and the dice are rolled at Step 1 instead of Step 4, you can build a character around the stats you rolled. With your approach, however, I not only lose a significant measure of choice as to what my character will ultimately look like (which occurs regardless of timing of the rolls), but I'm forced to write a backstory for my character without knowledge of his basic abilities, which would have a significant impact on his experiences to date, and may end up (as in the above example) with a character whose back story is clearly ludicrous given his statistics.

[Lemurion]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

To me the whole idea shows a fundamental disconnect from HERO. I played games with that sort of character restrictions back in the late seventies and early eighties.

 

Others have already gone over the math aspects, as well as the fact that because it runs counter to established HERO design philosophy it will actively repel most HERO gamers.

 

If it works for you, great. But I know I wouldn't want to go anywhere near it.

[Ephelides]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

It is good to take ideas from one game's background, settting, etc. and use in a different game.

 

It is LOUSY to take part of one game's system and implant in a different game's system.

 

If you want to play D&D, play D&D. If you want to play HERO, play HERO.

 

Anyway, it won't do what you want; most min/maxing comes during creating powers, and (unless you use RSR) characteristics don't affect powers. So you won't stop min/maxing. You are likely to increase min/maxing because the players know their characteristics are a crap shoot, they can't depend on characteristics for ANYTHING, so they'd better make characters who are all powers, no skills. Thus, the players will concentrate on powers at the expense of skills --- and characteristics, and talents, and probably roleplaying.

 

After all, a carefully written backstory does not guarantee good roleplaying, and if they have to fight the system --- and the GM! --- to get back to where they wanted their characters to be, roleplaying will suffer. So will cooperation and good attitude. Thus, the game will suffer.

[Starlord]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

If the concept is roll randomly and deal with the outcomes' date=' then you should try ebay for a copy of Villains and Vigilantes. Either that or use the random hero generation system from the Champions sourcebook.[/quote']

 

Even better, V&V is now basically Living Legends and you can find it online at a couple places.

 

This sounds like the game you'd rather be playing, ayinde. HEROphiles are pretty nice gamers overall, but I doubt you'll find anyone agreeing if you're wanting to change core components of this game. Frankly, it really does sound like you'd be happy with V&V/Living Legends. The character creation is completely random...and one of the things I hated about the system (although the art, characters, and other material from V&V were very useful for ideas and great to convert over to HERO).

[TheRavenIs]

Re: adding a random factor to the game

 

Why would you want to do that? I can't see it being Champions if you did that?