bryanb Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Hi There, I am going to be using the Ultimates in (Binder, Blackstar, Cyclone, Thunderbolt, Slick, Radium) in my next adventure but am a little confused with the "effect" of Slick's powers as presented in CKC. My problem is with the entangles he uses - given that he has the ability of friction control I assume that he changes friction around his target. Now, couldn't all this be undone by a super with flight? With the AE attack, I am assuming that the environment is effected so wouldn't this again have little to no effect on those who can fly? Maybe it's just that I can't figure a good way to use these powers - any help or advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates The Special Effects of a particular Power may indeed occasionally trump the specific game mechanics of another Power's writeup. In the case of Slick, the SFX of his Entangle is that he makes a surface that an opponent is standing on frictionless, so that that opponent can't walk or run forward, and will slip and fall and be unable to coordinate himself. Now if said character has the Power of Flight, and the SFX of that Flight is some sort of psionic levitation whereby he can rise into the air just by thinking it, then logically he should be able to beat Slick's Entangle without needing to use any other force. However, if the SFX of the Entangled character's Flight involves having to orient himself in the proper position to fly - wings, boot jets, etc. - then he may be unable to do so while sprawled out on the frictionless surface. If the super is actually flying when Slick throws his Entangle, then logically it should have no effect. However, you could rule that should the flier land in an Area Of Effect where the Entangle was thrown he would immediately be affected by the frictionless surface, which is not the default for a basic Entangle. This is an example of the minor benefits and drawbacks of Special Effects balancing each other out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questar Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates I'm one of those who always raised an eyebrow at Slick's entangle. It never seemed exactly the right power for the effect, since STR shouldn't really be able to overcome a frictionless environment. Still it's probably simpler than trying to work up some sort of Change Environment effect. You just have to assume that for some reason it doesn't effect really strong individuals and let it go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yansuf Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates The Special Effects of a particular Power may indeed occasionally trump the specific game mechanics of another Power's writeup. In the case of Slick, the SFX of his Entangle is that he makes a surface that an opponent is standing on frictionless, so that that opponent can't walk or run forward, and will slip and fall and be unable to coordinate himself. Now if said character has the Power of Flight, and the SFX of that Flight is some sort of psionic levitation whereby he can rise into the air just by thinking it, then logically he should be able to beat Slick's Entangle without needing to use any other force. However, if the SFX of the Entangled character's Flight involves having to orient himself in the proper position to fly - wings, boot jets, etc. - then he may be unable to do so while sprawled out on the frictionless surface. If the super is actually flying when Slick throws his Entangle, then logically it should have no effect. However, you could rule that should the flier land in an Area Of Effect where the Entangle was thrown he would immediately be affected by the frictionless surface, which is not the default for a basic Entangle. This is an example of the minor benefits and drawbacks of Special Effects balancing each other out. I thought that the special effect was increasing the friction to the point where you are stuck. (Yes, I know that wouldn't really work, but comic book physics is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates I'm one of those who always raised an eyebrow at Slick's entangle. It never seemed exactly the right power for the effect' date=' since STR shouldn't really be able to overcome a frictionless environment. Still it's probably simpler than trying to work up some sort of Change Environment effect. You just have to assume that for some reason it doesn't effect really strong individuals and let it go.[/quote'] I picture it as said really strong individual being able to dig down with fingers and/or toes below the surface that's been Slicked, giving him something to hold onto to exert force against. I agree that Change Environment would also be an appropriate tack, probably inducing DEX penalties requiring a Characteristic Roll for the victim to stay on his feet. Some sample Power constructs for ice sheets in various 5E books have used this. It would be up to the individual as to which approach (or another different one) would feel best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates I thought that the special effect was increasing the friction to the point where you are stuck. (Yes' date=' I know that wouldn't really work, but comic book physics is different.[/quote'] Looking over Slick's "Powers/Tactics" description in Conquerors, Killers And Crooks, it says that he can either increase or decrease friction, so either interpretation would be appropriate; although the way his Powers are designed make them sound more like reduced friction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates As a quick note, Slick has a Change Environment in his powerset defined as adding penalties to DEX based rolls and skills in addition to his Entangles (and the wording of the SFX on the entangles would seem to indicate reduction of friction.) I've always hated the write-up of his power as an entangle, and a 'proper' write-up of his powers has been on my 'do-list' -- I just never seem to get around to it. The current write-up isn't that bad, though at the very least I'd probably add the lim 'must be in contact with a surface' for the entangles because as the initial poster noted: How would creating a frictionless area affect a flyer? (hmmm, poses some interesting physics questions though... A winged flyer might fall because his wings were unable to generate 'lift'... A jet-propelled flyer might end up going faster and would probably have 'bad things' happen to their turn mode depending on specific SFX... A psionic or 'force of will' flyer (any flight where the SFX shouldn't be affected by a lack of friction) should probably be wondering why Slick is looking so confused as they continue to act unimpared, and they may have an increase in their manueverability...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates As a GM when I used him I just got around this by not having him try it on flyers. Of course, having a hero team that was usually full of martial artists and ground-bound bricks helped with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questar Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates I picture it as said really strong individual being able to dig down with fingers and/or toes below the surface that's been Slicked' date=' giving him something to hold onto to exert force against. In comic book physics, I guess that works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryanb Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates Thanks for all the advice on Slick and his power effects. Does anyone have any tips for using him in combat? Also the Ultimates as a unit? Thanks Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novi Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates Depending on how you think about it, you may want to run it as an Entangle vs. DEX, as suggested in Digital Hero 5. It still doesn't feel quite right, but that's got a lot to due with the nature of friction control. Entangle isn't quite the right way to describe it, but it is the closest effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey88 Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates I don't have a lot of experience with running the Ultimates, but I always assumed I'd run them as such: Slick will attempt combo entagles/change eviro to slipperiness on whoever seems fastest or hardest to hit. Such characters (speedsters and martial artists) will most likely try to get out of the way (aborting to dive for cover or flying dodge), and this will hopefully be made more difficult by the change enviro. If the entangle doesn't work, then they've already aborted to an action, and will be unable to avoid a follow-up entangle from Binder. Cyclone will focus on dealing with whoever gets too close for comfort, ideally keeping them at a distance; Blackstar takes on anyone who looks especially able to resist an entangle or cold cocks the squishy quick guys who got entangled and can't get away (the speedster gettiing punched by a guy with 75 STR will produce some serious twisted faces); Radium works on weakening the defenses of everyone, starting with the guy everyone starts pounding on first if he seems like he can take a good beating - he'll work on someone else if said enemy seems notably squishy, or uses NND rad. blast III on someone with otherwise unassailable defenses; Thunderbolt blasts or punches whoever is the easiest target or whoever presents the most fearsome offense. He's a loose cannon, so I'd avoid serious teamwork with him. In a nutshell, my strategy is "focus on entagling as many heroes as is practically possible, then focus on pounding them as brutally as possible." Ideally, singling out one person at a time to do this to and massing as many attacks as possible against him, to really put him down instead of just whittling each other down round by round; but remaining open to opportunities; and most importantly - cover your butt and your teammates' butts unless the potential for damage dealt greatly outweighs the damage you or your teammate will recieve in return. Glaring weaknesses: mentalists. Anyone who looks capable of EGO attacks or mind control gets a Move-through from Slick (if he can muster up the cajones for it), followed by blasts from Radium and T-bolt. If Slick goes down, I'd keep Binder back away from the front lines, firing AOE entangles to try and keep as many heroes on the defensive as possible. Not much different, really - but it's important the leader with the glue-gun stays up. Blackstar is his bodyguard - anyone after Binder has to go through him, if Blackstar doesn't have anyone else to pound on. If all else fails, run away! Practicality is an Ultimates motto, AFAIK. On that note, Slick's great at that! He also really seems like he's designed to be a martial artist's or speedster's nightmare. AOE entangles, reducing DEX in a huge area, and a ludicrous STR against grapples. Keep that in mind! As I've said, I haven't really used them properly yet - but that's be what I'd try to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Re: Help with Slick from the Ultimates One possible SFX explanation: his "friction control" also effects the not-really-related-but-close-enough-for-comics property of air resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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