Luck as a Characteristic

[Frenchman]

Schools' been keeping me away from the boards here, so I'll make this brief - OK, its me, so probably not.

 

Had an Idea while brainstorming with a friend a few days ago - it built off of my fancy for the luck power, my dissapointment that it never seems to get used in our games, and my thought that every character, being a Hero, should be at least a little lucky.

What if luck was a characteristic? Base 10, costs 1 for 1, get Luck/5 dice of luck from having it. Luck would also determine ties in skill vs skill contests, so 'fractional' luck would have a purpose. It could even be the base characteristic for some skills (like gamblings and, uh...gambling). I'm sure other uses for it could come up, if needed - but I don't think they would be.

 

Thoughts, suggestions, flames?

[Vondy]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

You would have to create a very clear framework in terms of when this characteristic applied and did not apply, and how opposed MoS rolls were to be interpreted. I say this because the original Star Trek RPG had a luck characteristic, and it pretty much dominated all other factors in the game. This would have to be very carefully implemented to avoid turning the game into a luck roll bonanza.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Luck could have a part in OCV and DCV -- say, (DEX/2)+LUCK.

 

You could also let PD = (STR + LUCK) / 10 and ED = (CON + LUCK) / 10, just to make STR and CON less "cost-effective."

 

Of course, both of these would wreak havoc on our familiar "break-points."

[BNakagawa]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Luck could have a part in OCV and DCV -- say, (DEX/2)+LUCK.

 

You could also let PD = (STR + LUCK) / 10 and ED = (CON + LUCK) / 10, just to make STR and CON less "cost-effective."

 

Of course, both of these would wreak havoc on our familiar "break-points."

 

I could buy PD = (STR + BODY)/10, but not luck. I mean, you being lucky and not getting hit solidly is just as likely as the other guy being lucky and hitting more solidly.

 

What next? dice of EB = (active points in EB + LUCK)/10 ?

[Kabluey]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

My approach to the issue of everyone having a little luck is to give every 1 level of Luck for free. It's simple, fits in with the current rules framework, and is easily accomplished in Hero Designer (a major criteria for me for all rules adjustments).

 

As to using Luck, I throw the responsibility onto the players. I don't use the default rules in Hero because that requires the GM to call for a roll. Instead, I use alternate rules. For a while I used one of the alternates in the Hero book, but now I use a much more extensive system that my players like. But the main point for me was to make it a player responsibility to use Luck, not a GM responsibility to remember it.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

I think if you wanted every character to have some luck, making it a characteristic makes perfect sense.. At base 10, everyone has their 2 dice luck, and for characters who's definition of powers is "Luck", they could go to town, perhaps even basing certain skills on the Luck Characteristic rather than Dex or Int.

 

For example, if people regularly drop money or secret passwords on the ground when you're around, it could easily be defined as "Sleight Of Hand, based on Luck Char"..

 

Another example of redefining the base CHAR of skill rolls is Missile deflection - You could easily redefine it to be based on 9 + (Luck/3) rather than the old dex roll.. though Luck is so much cheaper than Dex, the characters are still going to have to purchase a decent amount of Dex to have combat effective characters.. I don't think it would be too unbalancing for a Luck based character.

 

And in a figured stat like Fate points (experienced gained/5 + Luck/10) and use them like Hero Points or .. or whatever. I don't know. It sounds cool..

 

-CraterMaker

[Robyn]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

You would have to create a very clear framework in terms of when this characteristic applied and did not apply' date='[/quote']

 

Charges, recover between adventures, one charge per roll?

[teh bunneh]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Here's how I do Luck in my games.

 

For every 5 points a character has in Luck, he can make a 3d6 roll before the game begins. He writes down what he rolls. At any point during the game, he can replace one of his skill, characteristic, or attack rolls with that roll.

 

Unless a character's particular schtick is Luck, he can only put 15 points into it (three rolls per session).

 

This makes Luck work really well, but without overpowering the game. My players usually save it for those real make-or-break moments – "Oh no, I just rolled an 18! I'm going to replace that roll with my Luck 13…" or "I've really got to take him down right now! I'm going to replace this 7 Hit Location with my Luck 13 -- Vitals shot!"

 

It works well without re-writing the rules completely.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Here's how I do Luck in my games.

 

For every 5 points a character has in Luck, he can make a 3d6 roll before the game begins. He writes down what he rolls. At any point during the game, he can replace one of his skill, characteristic, or attack rolls with that roll.

 

Unless a character's particular schtick is Luck, he can only put 15 points into it (three rolls per session).

 

This makes Luck work really well, but without overpowering the game. My players usually save it for those real make-or-break moments – "Oh no, I just rolled an 18! I'm going to replace that roll with my Luck 13…" or "I've really got to take him down right now! I'm going to replace this 7 Hit Location with my Luck 13 -- Vitals shot!"

 

It works well without re-writing the rules completely.

 

 

Nice.

 

I've considered a Luck characteristic myself. It would affect Luck-based games etc (9+Luck/5 of course) and would determine how many Luck Dice each character possessed (Luck/5 D6 of course) and would provide a bonus of (Luck/5) in Luck Points.

 

Luck Points can be spent each game session to affect any roll may by or against the player.

 

1pt can be spent for an automatic success (no need to roll)

1pt can be spent to cause an automatic failure (in the case of something bad against the player)

1pt can be spent to turn a normal success into a critical success

1pt can be spent to turn a critical failure into a normal failure.

etc.

[zornwil]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

It would be sort of interesting, if you have a Luck stat and to allow players to put skills onto it, to make it so that for those skills success or failure is absolute, no shades of gray - you either suddenly see a piece of paper in a book with the answer or you have no clue; you either remember your Aunt May used to go out with that guy or you have no idea; I say this to put in variation with how many if not most GMs play skills where how much you succeed or failure by matters.

 

As another idea, Luck could generate a Luck Pool which is Luck/5 (or whatever) that in any combat indicates the number of Overall Levels you have for any purpose at all (whether an attack, a skill roll, etc.) per Turn. But these Levels are perishable, and you can use them at once or spread them out. So if you have 30 Luck, you could spend all +6 on one action in a Turn or spread it out to a +1 on each of your Phases if you're, say, 6 SPD. Using Luck/5 means it's really cost-effective but does ensure it will be used/featured; using Luck/10 balances it a little bit more against buying actual OCLs (though still definitely not balanced since you can use Luck for other things), but doesn't make it so you get to use it to much dramatic effect.

[Frenchman]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

First, thanks for the responses, I was a bit afraid I'd run into someone decrying me for befouling the Hero system. As much as I'd like to respond to everyone, I'll have to cherry-pick from you guys. Before I do, I'd just like to mention one other reason I wanted to make luck a characteristic that I forgot to put on my previous post - It makes Adjusting it a lot easier. If you want to have a spell/power/doohickey that makes someone luckier (or unluckier) you currently need a transform, since most people don't have luck/unluck, and it just seems to me that Aids and Drains are so much...neater than transforms for doing this.

As for responding to particular points:

 

You would have to create a very clear framework in terms of when this characteristic applied and did not apply' date=' and how opposed MoS rolls were to be interpreted. I say this because the original Star Trek RPG had a luck characteristic, and it pretty much dominated all other factors in the game. This would have to be very carefully implemented to avoid turning the game into a luck roll bonanza.[/quote']

 

I agree mostly - Just as I like Luck dice to be a 'fudge factor' once in a while, I see Luck as a characteristic working the same way - GM asks for it, you roll it, so the whole party doesn't get screwed over because you missed a skill roll by 1 (or something). But I would also want to have a fairly clear outline of what a player could expect to use it for - so they know not to ask for it for every single attack roll, but they know they will get it for every gambling roll. For example. I can see your point about getting carried away with luck, but if its not rolled alongside every other roll (especially in combat) that should be easily avoided.

 

Luck could have a part in OCV and DCV -- say, (DEX/2)+LUCK.

 

You could also let PD = (STR + LUCK) / 10 and ED = (CON + LUCK) / 10, just to make STR and CON less "cost-effective."

 

Of course, both of these would wreak havoc on our familiar "break-points."

 

I actually like the idea of using Luck for CVs quite a lot - repped (Ironic how the boards sense me a message bidding me luck). I agree with BNakagawa that applying it to defenses is going a bit far...especially since it allready applies to DCV.

I happen to Like that it screws with our break-points for Dex, and it might be nice to uncouple Dex entirely from one - such as if DCV was Dex/3, but OCV was Luck/3. Personally I like the idea that CV=(DEX+LUCK)/6.

 

I think if you wanted every character to have some luck, making it a characteristic makes perfect sense.. At base 10, everyone has their 2 dice luck, and for characters who's definition of powers is "Luck", they could go to town, perhaps even basing certain skills on the Luck Characteristic rather than Dex or Int.

 

For example, if people regularly drop money or secret passwords on the ground when you're around, it could easily be defined as "Sleight Of Hand, based on Luck Char"..

 

Another example of redefining the base CHAR of skill rolls is Missile deflection - You could easily redefine it to be based on 9 + (Luck/3) rather than the old dex roll.. though Luck is so much cheaper than Dex, the characters are still going to have to purchase a decent amount of Dex to have combat effective characters.. I don't think it would be too unbalancing for a Luck based character.

 

And in a figured stat like Fate points (experienced gained/5 + Luck/10) and use them like Hero Points or .. or whatever. I don't know. It sounds cool..

 

-CraterMaker

 

I really like the idea of basing skills off of luck when coupled with Zornwil's 'all-or-nothing' idea, but I think it would be going too far to let characters base whatever they want off of luck - why have high Dex, Int, or Pre, when a high Luck score covers all of your skills?

 

It would be sort of interesting' date=' if you have a Luck stat and to allow players to put skills onto it, to make it so that for those skills success or failure is absolute, no shades of gray - you either suddenly see a piece of paper in a book with the answer or you have no clue; you either remember your Aunt May used to go out with that guy or you have no idea; I say this to put in variation with how many if not most GMs play skills where how much you succeed or failure by matters.[/quote']

 

As I said above, I like this idea - but I would want some guidlines for how many/what skills can be based on Luck, and why (mechanically) would a skill-based character not just buy tons of Luck and have all their skills based on Luck.

 

As another idea' date=' Luck could generate a Luck Pool which is Luck/5 (or whatever) that in any combat indicates the number of Overall Levels you have for any purpose at all (whether an attack, a skill roll, etc.) per Turn. But these Levels are perishable, and you can use them at once or spread them out. So if you have 30 Luck, you could spend all +6 on one action in a Turn or spread it out to a +1 on each of your Phases if you're, say, 6 SPD. Using Luck/5 means it's really cost-effective but does ensure it will be used/featured; using Luck/10 balances it a little bit more against buying actual OCLs (though still definitely not balanced since you can use Luck for other things), but doesn't make it so you get to use it to much dramatic effect.[/quote']

 

This is also a good idea, but I like making CVs partially figured off of Luck better, and this would feel like double-dipping. Though perhaps Luck as a characteristic vs. Luck as a power could be distinguished by having the dice 'fade' - A character with 15 Luck has three dice, if they roll two 6s on a luck roll early in today's game session, then they only have one die of luck for their next roll - and so on until they roll another 6. Conversely Luck bought as a power doesn't 'fade' like that.

 

By the way, if I end up using this, it will be in a heroic game, and I may want a hand with designing a HD template to include the Luck stat - but that'll come later, if at all.

 

Thanks for all the ideas, everyone!

[zornwil]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Thanks (and btw, that is an important point about Adjustment power interaction - and you raise an interesting other point but I'll save that for Sean's Unified Field thread and probably even create a new thread) - please do let us know how this works out if you do something with it, most interested to hear.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Something I haven't seen addressed yet...

How would this idea interact with Unluck?

[Frenchman]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Something I haven't seen addressed yet...

How would this idea interact with Unluck?

A negative Luck score. Just as you can have negative STR or COM as a base value, you could have a negatuve LUCK all the time - thats unluck. If people want both luck and unluck (which is only provinally allowed by the book, anyways) then they could buy the Disadvantage. But most of the time Unluck could be simulated with a negative characteristic.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Nice.

 

I've considered a Luck characteristic myself. It would affect Luck-based games etc (9+Luck/5 of course) and would determine how many Luck Dice each character possessed (Luck/5 D6 of course) and would provide a bonus of (Luck/5) in Luck Points.

 

Luck Points can be spent each game session to affect any roll may by or against the player.

 

1pt can be spent for an automatic success (no need to roll)

1pt can be spent to cause an automatic failure (in the case of something bad against the player)

1pt can be spent to turn a normal success into a critical success

1pt can be spent to turn a critical failure into a normal failure.

etc.

 

 

This implementation is generous to the point of being broken.

 

Luck points are more valuable than just about anything else on a point by point basis.

 

1 point for an automatic success? I'm buying find weakness. (and luck)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

This implementation is generous to the point of being broken.

 

Luck points are more valuable than just about anything else on a point by point basis.

 

1 point for an automatic success? I'm buying find weakness. (and luck)

 

I would only use such mechanics in a game where I want the players to perform unparralelled acts of extreme derring-do. It wouldn't fly for most genres. And of course the Boss and Sub-Boss NPC's would have access to Luck Points as well, though typical "Extras" would not have access to them.

[Robyn]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Nice.

 

I've considered a Luck characteristic myself. It would affect Luck-based games etc (9+Luck/5 of course) and would determine how many Luck Dice each character possessed (Luck/5 D6 of course) and would provide a bonus of (Luck/5) in Luck Points.

 

Luck Points can be spent each game session to affect any roll may by or against the player.

 

1pt can be spent for an automatic success (no need to roll)

1pt can be spent to cause an automatic failure (in the case of something bad against the player)

1pt can be spent to turn a normal success into a critical success

1pt can be spent to turn a critical failure into a normal failure.

etc.

 

Luck can only stretch so far. To balance this (with skills), how about restricting the automatic successes of Luck points to when the leftover Luck points would be enough to make up the difference in a theoretical roll against your current skill? This still requires only 1 Luck point, but at some point, your Luck can run out.

 

Or, to use it with something you don't have an appropriate skill for, you can spend several Luck points at once (maybe even all of them).

Putting everything in Luck would mean that a point or two could be used before the difficulty of most tasks would require expending the rest of it. Putting points into other skills would leave Luck useable in most cases, since the character would likely be only a few points away from their needed roll.

[Sealemon]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

A character in my campaign has been using 4D6 Luck "Option A", as listed on pg. 199 of the core rules (Roll luck for BODY, this is number or rerolls you get for that game session), with one exception: The luck reroll does NOT have to be higher than the original roll. So far, it's worked out pretty well...allowing him to overcome blown rolls without getting an unbalanced chance of succesfully doing something unrealistic.

 

By getting to re-roll as often as he wants, burning a "Luck point" each roll, his odds of doing something reasonably difficult are better (When it was crunch time, he burned two of his remaining Luck Point to hit the last henchman before he could get away)

[BNakagawa]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

I would only use such mechanics in a game where I want the players to perform unparralelled acts of extreme derring-do. It wouldn't fly for most genres. And of course the Boss and Sub-Boss NPC's would have access to Luck Points as well' date=' though typical "Extras" would not have access to them.[/quote']

 

Here's where we disagree on implementation.

 

I wouldn't have such a mechanic in any game I ran simply because it is an antidramatic game mechanic.

 

It destroys the risk/reward balance because as long as a PC has a luck point stashed away, they can go ahead and do whatever they want as long as it doesn't involve a boss or sub-boss with luck points in reserve. Such a mechanic is, IMO, antidramatic in the extreme.

 

If there is no chance of failure, I can't exactly characterize anything as an unparalleled act of derring-do so much as a fait accompli.

[zornwil]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Although I would say that in a lot of games one could well argue that against a "boss or sub-boss" (depending on what those mean) a hero shouldn't really ever lose.

[Frenchman]

Re: Luck as a Characteristic

 

Only when 'losing' equals 'death' of all or much of the party should the characters not lost against a major opponent. As GM, I keep contingencies and prison-break contingencies on hand in case they do lose.