KB discussion

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

As I said (repeatedly' date=' I think), it makes sense to me in "real" physics terms - it just doesn't mimic the comics well, IMO. A car at 35 MPH would send an unsuspecting 1000-lb. figure flying, but IIRC, there's been plenty of those scenes in which the car smashes against the brick as if he's a wall.[/quote']

 

To be honest, if you want to be 'real' the 35mph car would send a suspecting stationary 1000lb charcter flying* unless they were lying down or actually secured to the landscape i.e. holding onto something more massive than they that is not simply going to come apart when subjected to shear stresses.

 

Gripping with your toes simply is not going to work.

 

My contention though is that KB is not 'real' and we don't want it to be, and morever we have misinterpretted what it is ab initio.

 

 

 

 

*Well, depending on how heavy the car is, it would certainly impart significant velocity to the character.

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

One interesting (to me) point about superstrong characters that I never really understood, is that the damage from a blow is only nominally a product of strength, and far more in fact a product of speed, and getting your body mass behind the blow (so technique). Transmitting energy to the target is the aim of the game, not, generally, wasting it in hefting them across the room. That is what throws are for, when the damage comes from the landing.

 

If we wanted to be 'realistic' about KB then a 60 STR character weighing 100kg who punched a wall weighing several tons would do some KB alright. He'd end up on his backside somewhere over that-a-way.

 

So let us not fool ourselves that KB is anything other than the aping of a genre convention, and let us look carefully at what that convention actually is and what it does.

 

It demonstrates the astonishing level of power that is being applied. That, really, really is the job of the GM and his astonishing descriptive powers (female GMs don't have astonishing descriptive powers but do have high level psionic powers that make you think they do).

 

It enables characters to be moved around the battlefield. Again, usually for dramatic effect.

 

It is rarely if ever used as an additional way to damage a character: generally whatever they hit is a lot less painful than the blow that caused them to hit it (with the every-genre staple of flying back onto a protruding spike the exception), and enables characters to make soliliquies as they lie there in the rubble, mainly for dramatic effect.

 

It is used, once more for dramatic effect, to enable villains, and sometimes heroes, to escape.

 

I'm just hearing 'dramatic effect' repeated over and over. I'm beginning to think that we missed the point entirely on this one.

Really sage commentary.

 

To play devil's advocate, though, on the higher end of super-action, people do travel long distances with the appropriate punches. In melodramatic wuxia-style or super-duper-style (such as McCloud's DESTROY!), people go through more than one wall across long distances. While the necessity of movement may be undesirable in one sense (after all, we rarely see this sudden distance slow down the combat or really be a tactical choice at all), on the other hand players would like to see "how far did he go" and have that not be pure arbitrary GM fiat.

 

But to back off from devil's advocate, I do see a problem still, even with that. The problem is that HERO does advocate/force a certain sense of realism not in comics. It's one of the reason some people's early Champions games (such as RDU Neil's and mine) were so immediately disconnected from 4-color - because the mechanics are so highly rational that they "break" the absurdly inconsistent parts of comics (whether that's a virtue or problem is really a matter of interpretation, and I'm setting that aside - any rebuild of HERO to change that would be fundamental). The consequence is that once we create this movement, it becomes a tactical choice that, while comic book characters mostly do not indulge in, is apparent to players and their PCs, and so the distance becomes its own tool. Create a slugfest to move the guy away and force him to make a half move every time coming back. It doesn't work like the source material at all, defeating its very intended purpose!

 

I suppose one could simply declare that you use KB as is to create the "objective" effect, but that if EITHER character wishes to close distance (along with some complexity to account for SPD/running differences) they may do so freely as a 0-phase action...but very unsatisfying to many HERO players who demand a greater sense of simulation...

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

Couldn't you extrapolate and create a Shove maneuver that is available to everyone?

 

- Christopher Mullins

Sure, that's fair. I'd like to say I do like Just Joe's idea a lot, too, even if it is for more specific purposes.

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

Mythbusters is one of the few shows I do watch. Excellent show!

 

There are a lot of physics that go into knocking someone off their feat, and it all has to do with inertia. If the object striking the target doesn't have more inertia than the target, the target won't move. It's why bullets don't knock you back, even shotgun shells, but a car moving only 25mph could knock you off the road. The KB rules don't really take this into account. The closest they get is making KA do less KB on average, and assume a Martial Arts Maneuver is delivered to precicely to do much KB.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the discussion, but I thought I'd share.

 

I was hit by a car once, it was probably going 30 or so, and went flying, I am told, about 6 feet up and landing about 6 feet away. I know how far I went and that sounds right, I wasn't really particularly thoughtful or perceptive during the flight so have no idea aside from I know I left the ground!

[schir1964]

Re: KB discussion

 

I was hit by a car once' date=' it was probably going 30 or so, and went flying, I am told, about 6 feet up and landing about 6 feet away. I know how far I went and that sounds right, I wasn't really particularly thoughtful or perceptive during the flight so have no idea aside from I know I left the ground![/quote']

Aha!! I knew Zornwil was a mutant! No one could have survived a hit like that!

 

Next time I'll.. uh wait... that was horrible thing to happen. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

Aha!! I knew Zornwil was a mutant! No one could have survived a hit like that!

 

Next time I'll.. uh wait... that was horrible thing to happen. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

I even cracked their windshield with my head - and did NOT suffer a concussion!

 

However, my right arm was broken right on the elbow where I landed on it.

[schir1964]

Re: KB discussion

 

I even cracked their windshield with my head - and did NOT suffer a concussion!

 

However, my right arm was broken right on the elbow where I landed on it.

Ouch!!

 

It is a miracle you lived.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: KB discussion

 

I was hit by a car once' date=' it was probably going 30 or so, and went flying, I am told, about 6 feet up and landing about 6 feet away. I know how far I went and that sounds right, I wasn't really particularly thoughtful or perceptive during the flight so have no idea aside from I know I left the ground![/quote']

 

Easily covered by Heroic level Knockdown rules, BTW.

 

You travelled what? About 2 Meters. 1".

 

Makes me wonder sunthin....

Let see here...

Normal in Superheroic setting (and thus metarules)

10 STR (2D6), Throws a Haymaker (+4d6, capped at +2d6 due to max damage doubling rule IIRC) maxes damage roll (not impossible on 4d6) could do on a minimum KB roll... 6" of KB. 12 Meters/38 Feet. What? Maybe the length of a schoolbus? Neat.

 

I mostly use KB as an optional portion of my games... Knockdown is default, Does Knockback is possible, Increased KB is available for attacks built to do KB, and Increased Knockdown is an option for ones that aren't. Knockdown rules do a credible job, and they can knock targets back if the damage roll is high enough, which seems to fit well for what I want.

[secretID]

Re: KB discussion

 

However' date=' my right arm was broken right on the elbow where I landed on it. [/quote']

See?! And I bet you grimaced AND said, "Argh!" That's all I'm saying.

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

See?! And I bet you grimaced AND said' date=' "Argh!" That's all I'm saying.[/quote']

Ha, actually, no, the wind was knocked out of me so I went more like, open mouth, :........ and then get scared you won't breathe! Though as stated obviously I was okay.

[Vondy]

Re: KB discussion

 

KB is a bit of a problem.

 

Is there anything in the system you don't think is a bit of a problem?

 

I don't really see it as a damage causing technique: just buying normal damage dice has to be favourite for that. It is useful tactically though for moving opponents around the battlefield and keeping them off balance.

 

Having said that any game with damage DCs of 8 or more is likely to do SOME KB on most attacks. This is a bit daft. Even in the comics that are the source material you do not see every attack doing KB, and I can't believe that every character is bracing against KB or had bought KBR.

 

Anyway, that is a systemic problem: I do have a solution: attacks don't do KB unless you pull a 'KB manouvre' which, oh I don't know, could allow KB, reduce damage by 2 dice but add 4 dice to that for KB, or it does normal damage but takes -1 OCV/-1 DCV.

 

Thta would cut down the instance of KB whilst still making it available in system for that super smack.

 

Alternatively you could simply assume it only applies to haymakers and move throughs.

 

One other point: the cost of KB, or rather defending against it. According to the book 'no KB' is a -1/4 limitation, so 1d6 EB with no KB would cost 4 points: the value of (potentially) 1d6 of KB is 1 point. So why does the defence cost 2 points?

 

Does anyone else see KB as a problem at all? Do you have your own solutions?

 

It works well for silver age comics - especially when two bricks get into a big slugfest. In a lot of old Hulk comics he and the other strongman would spend half an issue knocking eachother through entire buildings while yelling dramatically appropriate Shakespearean verse like "Hulk Smash!" And we do see scenes in most superhero comics where people get knocked around in dramatically ludicrous ways to demonstrate to us, the dim-witted readers who must have everything spelled out to us as though we were reading "see spot run," how dangerous and powerful some writer's pet character of the moment is. This is most frequently done by bricks, but occurs with other character types as well. Its a genre trope. On the other hand this is almost invariably linked to some sort of big wind-up attack. As a result, one easy fix that would require almost nothing would be to state "only haymakers do knockback." You could also create a manever (I would just do penalties to OCV in exchange for it), alter the formula, or require an advantage. Were it me, however, I would probably avoid making it an advantage, and would be reticent about tinkering with the formula. I think making it a maneuver or relegating it to haymakers would be the cleanest "fix."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

Is there anything in the system you don't think is a bit of a problem?

 

Repped!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: KB discussion

 

Is there anything in the system you don't think is a bit of a problem?

 

Oh, come on...

 

Clearly he sees some things as a lot of a problem!

 

[Good thing we know Sean has a sense of humor...]

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

Is there anything in the system you don't think is a bit of a problem?

 

 

 

It works well for silver age comics - especially when two bricks get into a big slugfest. In a lot of old Hulk comics he and the other strongman would spend half an issue knocking eachother through entire buildings while yelling dramatically appropriate Shakespearean verse like "Hulk Smash!" And we do see scenes in most superhero comics where people get knocked around in dramatically ludicrous ways to demonstrate to us, the dim-witted readers who must have everything spelled out to us as though we were reading "see spot run," how dangerous and powerful some writer's pet character of the moment is. This is mot frequently done by bricks, but occurs with other character types as well. Its a genre trope. On the other hand this is almost invariably linked to some sort of big wind-up attack. As a result, one easy fix that would require almost nothing would be to state "only haymakers do knockback." You could also create a manever (I would just do penalties to OCV in exchange for it), alter the formula, or require an advantage. Were it me, however, I would probably avoid making it an advantage, and would be reticent about tinkering with the formula. I think making it a maneuver or relegating it to haymakers would be the cleanest "fix."

OOOOOH, I LIKE the "only Haymakers do KB" idea!

 

PS - can't fix at the moment

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

Repped!

 

If I were the sort of person who took umbrage....

 

...but I'm not

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

OOOOOH, I LIKE the "only Haymakers do KB" idea!

 

PS - can't fix at the moment

 

You mean a bit like the suggestion I made in post 1, and indeed, that Von D-Man quotes at the top of this page? Or are you and HyperMan having a bit of a laugh

 

Anyway, it would have to be haymakers AND move throughs, for the obvious reason that KB is actually part of the move through mechanic, determining how much damage the attacker takes.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

Is there anything in the system you don't think is a bit of a problem?

 

I don't have a lot of problems with the cover. Well, the front of it anyway. I do have a couple of issues with the stuff on the back.

 

What?

[schir1964]

Re: KB discussion

 

Nice... (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

You mean a bit like the suggestion I made in post 1, and indeed, that Von D-Man quotes at the top of this page? Or are you and HyperMan having a bit of a laugh

 

Anyway, it would have to be haymakers AND move throughs, for the obvious reason that KB is actually part of the move through mechanic, determining how much damage the attacker takes.

 

Somehow I missed that sentence, sorry! I wish I could say I was being funny as indeed it would have been...oh, well, I'm not sure if I gave you rep too recently but shall get you at some point.

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

I don't have a lot of problems with the cover. Well, the front of it anyway. I do have a couple of issues with the stuff on the back.

 

What?

I thought you were content with that one sentence on page 167...

[Just Joe]

Re: KB discussion

 

I'd like to say I do like Just Joe's idea a lot' date=' too, even if it is for more specific purposes.[/quote']I was hoping someone would actually discuss it a bit, but I appreciate this comment (even more than the rep, which was of course, coming from you, enormous).

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

I was hoping someone would actually discuss it a bit' date=' but I appreciate this comment (even more than the rep, which was of course, coming from you, enormous).[/quote']

Oh, geez...now, wait, is that because you find my opinion of value or I'm just so dang hard to please? (really, no need to answer, your comment is appreciated - either way!)

 

I didn't really get into more discussion because it seems pretty straight-forward and you yourself gave the appropriate disclaimers about what might/might not work for some play styles. I think the BOD trade-off is pretty fair and works well in this system, personally. As stated, the purpose of it is a bit narrow, but it provides a very nice scale and could be altered as you state.

 

To that point, I'm not a great number-cruncher - but I tend to think your version might be more scaleable than the existing one in terms of having components that allow for both greater granularity when defining low-level KB as well as easy to just expand out for more. Have you run any numbers if altering it to do as the system does?

 

From a purely systemic view, I'm attracted to Sean's comments re "why do we have KB," and struggle a bit with how it really works in supers - it is not a tactical driver, it's pure cinema. Then again, HERO has always created certain play experience opportunities and challenges stemming from this rationalization of the fantastic.

 

I.E., I'm conflicted still on this topic and don't have a strong feeling as to a "correct" solution. As mentioned, I like your idea, some of Sean's ideas, particularly including the Haymaker one. Though merging the 2 could work well, too - the Haymaker would modify the results much more dramatically.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

I'm in agreement with almost all of what Sean Waters has written in this thread regarding the proper role of knockback, but I have different thoughts on how to go about "fixing" it ("fixing" in quotes, because it's only broken for those campaigns and groups that it doesn't work for).

 

I see two problems: knockback being too common, and knockback being insufficiently correlated with the strength of the hit. I have an approach that I have designed to solve both of these problems. It is intended for a particular campaign that defies easy description, but is perhaps similar to street level supers in that I want some knockback, especially for powerful attacks, but want considerably less than the standard rules produce. If you like the general approach, the details can be tweaked to get the results you want. (Note: I personally do not think KB should be tied to how much damage gets past defenses, so this will not appeal to those of you who do).

 

Here is my approach. Everyone gets a default KB resistance of BOD/2. KB dice are d3, not d6.

 

12 BOD attack on standard rules does avg. KB of 12-7=5" KB

12 BOD attack vs. 10 BOD target (my rules) does avg. KB of 12-5-4 = 3"

Many combatants should have more body.

12 BOD attack vs. 14 BOD target (my rules) does avg. KB of 12-7-4 = 1"

Many bricks should have a lot more body.

12 BOD attack vs. 20 BOD target (my rules) does avg. KB of 12-10-4 => 0"

 

Note that KBR can be bought up or down (like, e.g., leaping based on strength). Yes, this makes BOD more valuable, but since KBR is overpriced (as SW has argued) and BOD is currently among the lowest primary characteristics on many, many characters, that's fine with me. This reduces the difference between KA/MA and normal attacks and flying target vs. non-flying -- no big deal to me but you can tweak my rules if you care.

 

Whaddaya think?

 

 

OK. First off, no matter how appropriate, anything other than 1d6 is never going to be generally popular in Hero.

 

Second BODY does not correlate to body mass, which is priobably the most important single factor for 'basic KBR': it could simply indicate that you are made of something tough but light, or have a very strong will to love. Of course people's opinons vary on that too.

 

Now the two problems you identify: ubiquity of KB and insufficent 'hit strength correlation' under this system are solved by the increased utility of BODY. I would imagine that this would just mean most people buying more BODY as it is not a more cost effective buy, which may have undesireable side effects for concept types.

 

The easiest way to correlate 'hit stength' with KB is to make the reduction a constant, and you can solve the first problem, at least to an extent, by making it a bigger than average constant:

 

0d6 = 0

1d6= 4

2d6 = 8

3d6 = 12

 

....and so on (so we used to roll BODY-2d6, we now calculate BODY-8). If you are still getting too much (or you htink there is too little) KB then you can just change the constant.

 

This has the added advantage of making the purchase of KRB more useful: no longer do you have to buy 10 points of KBR to be sure of not taking any KB from an average 12d6 hit, 3 points will see you pretty safe, which, in effect, also reduces the effective cost of KBR as you do not need to buy so much.

 

You still get KB variation as you still get BODY damage variation but the range is much narrower and more predicatable.

 

OK, that is a pretty negative review of the idea overall, but it is only by making suggestions and getting feedback that we can refine and advance our ideas and understanding, so substantial kudos for presenting a complete system as you did.

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

OK. First off, no matter how appropriate, anything other than 1d6 is never going to be generally popular in Hero.

 

Second BODY does not correlate to body mass, which is priobably the most important single factor for 'basic KBR': it could simply indicate that you are made of something tough but light, or have a very strong will to love. Of course people's opinons vary on that too.

 

Now the two problems you identify: ubiquity of KB and insufficent 'hit strength correlation' under this system are solved by the increased utility of BODY. I would imagine that this would just mean most people buying more BODY as it is not a more cost effective buy, which may have undesireable side effects for concept types.

 

The easiest way to correlate 'hit stength' with KB is to make the reduction a constant, and you can solve the first problem, at least to an extent, by making it a bigger than average constant:

 

0d6 = 0

1d6= 4

2d6 = 8

3d6 = 12

 

....and so on (so we used to roll BODY-2d6, we now calculate BODY-8). If you are still getting too much (or you htink there is too little) KB then you can just change the constant.

 

This has the added advantage of making the purchase of KRB more useful: no longer do you have to buy 10 points of KBR to be sure of not taking any KB from an average 12d6 hit, 3 points will see you pretty safe, which, in effect, also reduces the effective cost of KBR as you do not need to buy so much.

 

You still get KB variation as you still get BODY damage variation but the range is much narrower and more predicatable.

 

OK, that is a pretty negative review of the idea overall, but it is only by making suggestions and getting feedback that we can refine and advance our ideas and understanding, so substantial kudos for presenting a complete system as you did.

I agree that BOD is not related per se to mass, but it is often used for this and bear in mind its relationship to derived stats, which indicates its strong inference of such a relationship to mass. Of course you could buy BOD "not for KB"...er....okay, I think we see a problem, Houston.. Although I'd make it -1/4 anyway and I have no heartburn there.

 

Personally I like giving BOD more of a role in the game. I think it helps, rather than hurts.

 

I think the strength in JustJoe's idea is that it DOES tone down the KB so much in games. Bearing in mind HERO <> Champions, this is a GOOD THING. It opens up KB for the entire population of users in a much more logical way. And my impression is for Champions conflicts you just make it a lot easier to do KB and things reset for that genre.

 

PS - also, ample precedent for 1d3 - we have lots of 1/2d6 constructs, same thing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

I do like the idea of scaling KB over all genres so that it works without having to apply 'heroic' and 'superheroic' tags, although I am not convinced that this system quite gets there.

 

Although in Heroic games, increased BOD will be rarer, decreased BOD is rarer still, so the 'minimum' deduction of KB is 7" and the average 9", so, in fact, a higher average total than using the current system, even with 'average starting characters'

 

Now you clearly cannot have a perfect system here, so there still has to be SOME differentiation between Heroic and Superheroic genres.

 

Now I quite like knockdown as an idea, so we could incorporate that into this idea, by, for example, saying that for heroic games, if the KB score is half or more than unmodified basic KBR you score a knockdown (so knockdowns would occur on 5 BODY damage for a 'normal starting character' with 10 BOD).

 

This will make knockdown more common though, which may not be desireable.

 

That's the trouble with an interlocked system like this: one change often has a lot of consequences.