KB discussion

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

Although I indicated my personal opinion and house rule on it' date=' I think the system treats it fine - because opinions vary so much, and the purpose of a core book in a so-called universal system is to suggest at least "[b']a[/b] standard way, not necessarily the only way. I think any KB tinkering just slants it to one direction or another, whereas it is a rather easy thing to deal with for people as it stands. Just salt to taste.

 

One point to consider though is that the KB system was designed for a rather different version of Hero - Champions in fact. The break point and extent of KB was based on a very different build and has not changed as characters have become considerably more powerful.

 

This does not matter for OCV/DCV as it is all relative anyway, but for a set break point like KB, it seems rather more important.

 

The idea that Secret ID has about KB being based on damage done is interesting as it means that there is at least some adjustment for relative power level.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

I just read most of the posts. And thinking of the early posts, what fights in comics lack KB?

 

I remember an issue of the Hulk where Hercules, Namor, Wonder Man, and Iron Man try to subdue the Hulk. The KB from the pounding (including shellhead's repulsor rays) destroyed 6 six blocks before Hulk won.

 

Prior to taunting the Thing into a fight to work out aggression over Johnny and Alicia's wedding (pre-she's a skrull), Jen made sure to locate a building scheduled for demolition to fight in b/c she knew the KB would be devestating. The demolition crew ended up with an early completion bonus after the two's punching at each other destroyed the whole building.

 

Even Batman and Robin score 1-2" KB results fighting thugs.

 

Most fights in comics feature KB.

 

B+R may well KB when they KO: most of those thugs are not getting back up again. Hulk is in a different class.

 

I maintain what I say about the comic source material though - KB is used for dramatic and illustrative purposes - your examples are designed to show the power involved, not to slow down the fight. You could do the same thing with some sort of collateral damage rules, and not interfere with combat, so you only have 'system KB' when there is a specific character need for it i.e. deliberately moving an opponent around the battlefield or where there is a specific desire to aim KB.

 

I think that is my main concern, really: KB is largely pointless, in that it does nothing but forces characters to take unwanted half moves. KB rarely causes damage as it averages 7 dice less than camapaign DCs even when you hit an interevening object that doesn't break. It just wastes time.

[Vestnik]

Re: KB discussion

 

Something that has always annoyed me is:

 

Deadly Jaws of Doom: 2d6 HKA

 

Shouldn't all bites have the No Knockback limitation? Gnashing teeth do not hurl the victim backward.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

Something that has always annoyed me is:

 

Deadly Jaws of Doom: 2d6 HKA

 

Shouldn't all bites have the No Knockback limitation? Gnashing teeth do not hurl the victim backward.

 

What if the teeth are spring loaded and flick outwards as they come together, hurling the poor unfortunate away?

 

OK, you are quite right, but this is one of the Perils of Hero: the inadequately cogitated concept. What might be referred to, in computer terms as PIBCAK

 

...or Problem Is Between Chair And Keyboard

[Dust Raven]

Re: KB discussion

 

In the campaign I'm part of' date=' we have a houserule called 'The Brick Rule'. We use for bricks beating on each other. It seems a little sill for two bricks to knock each other all over the battlefield with every blow and spend phases running back up to each other. The houserule automatically ignores any knockback for those two combatants.[/quote']

I have a similar house rule, only mine works like this:

 

Two bricks square off against each other. One goes first, runs up to the other and punches, and I say to the other "you're bracing against KB 'cuz you're a brick and don't care if he hits you, right?"

 

I haven't thought too much about it' date=' but I'd like to see it tied to the amount of damage that actually gets through defenses. [/quote']

 

In what way? This can't be tied to the BODY done then, since in most supers games, no BODY gets through, so when would anyone take KB? If you base it off of STUN taken, how would you determine the KB fairly and consistantly? The STUN from any attack varies by quite a bit.

 

In any case, while I agree that anyone who takes KB usually makes a "ooph!" noise as they get hit, an "ooph!" noise does not mean they actually took STUN or BODY.

[Dust Raven]

Re: KB discussion

 

OK, you are quite right, but this is one of the Perils of Hero: the inadequately cogitated concept. What might be referred to, in computer terms as PIBCAK

 

...or Problem Is Between Chair And Keyboard

 

How true... how very true...

 

P.S.: I work in tech support.

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

One point to consider though is that the KB system was designed for a rather different version of Hero - Champions in fact. The break point and extent of KB was based on a very different build and has not changed as characters have become considerably more powerful.

 

This does not matter for OCV/DCV as it is all relative anyway, but for a set break point like KB, it seems rather more important.

 

The idea that Secret ID has about KB being based on damage done is interesting as it means that there is at least some adjustment for relative power level.

Although as someone mentioned above, the book still restricts KB to superheroic, so one could say it's no issue, then. Now that I think about it, it shouldn't even be in the core rulebook, technically, and to your point! Although I'm speaking only idealistically, it's too big a mechanic/detail for such games to relegate to a genre book, probably.

 

I think what you're getting at, though, and I agree with, is that there ought to be a "knockback for everybody," as we see this in martial arts and such, not even wuxia ones, and we need some sort of scaled down heroic version. Fair point.

 

(PS - at which point I would hope it could be created to be useful for supers and just leave any "bigger knockback" options to a genre book)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: KB discussion

 

No' date=' I meant force field. As I said, while it does make sense to me in "real" physics terms that 200-lb. Diamond Man (30 ED) or 150-lb. Gadget Gal (30 ED force field) would be sent flying by a 28-point EB, I have the objections I mentioned. [/quote']

 

Well, it's been noted this is an average 8d6 Energy Blast, delivering 8 points of pre-defense BOD. That will do considerable damage to a typical wall. Why would that not be enough impact to knock a 150 lb - 200 lb person back, regardless of how tough their skin may be?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

Well' date=' it's been noted this is an average 8d6 Energy Blast, delivering 8 points of pre-defense BOD. That will do considerable damage to a typical wall. Why would that not be enough impact to knock a 150 lb - 200 lb person back, regardless of how tough their skin may be?[/quote']

 

Does anyone here watch Mythbusters? There was a recent episode dealing with a myth about a moving train's wake sucking a person off the platform. One of the tests they performed was with a relatively low amount of compressed air vs. an un-braced target. I believe they determined that less than 100 psi was enough to knock someone off balance if not on their butt.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

Although as someone mentioned above, the book still restricts KB to superheroic, so one could say it's no issue, then. Now that I think about it, it shouldn't even be in the core rulebook, technically, and to your point! Although I'm speaking only idealistically, it's too big a mechanic/detail for such games to relegate to a genre book, probably.

 

I think what you're getting at, though, and I agree with, is that there ought to be a "knockback for everybody," as we see this in martial arts and such, not even wuxia ones, and we need some sort of scaled down heroic version. Fair point.

 

(PS - at which point I would hope it could be created to be useful for supers and just leave any "bigger knockback" options to a genre book)

 

Well, one very easy way to impliment KB in limited situations for all genre would be to have it only occur when the attack roll would otherwise be considered a 'critical hit' (regardless if the extra damage rules associated with that is being used). This would help differentiate glancing blows that still do normal damage from square-on hits that convey more force on the target.

[Rapier]

Re: KB discussion

 

I've spent a fair amount of time in martial arts. I'm a fairly normal (if freakishly tall) kind of guy and have been involved in combat with other farily normal kind of guys. KB is a very real thing.

 

I've taken hits that moved me back a few feet...and I don't have anywhere near a 60 STR.

 

KB is realistic and a natural progression from what we can experience in real life. It is also in genre, since we frequently see Spidey knock that snot out of someone and send him flying. Yes, there are a lot of characters that never seem to do knockback. I think Champions does an admirable job of recreating most of the logic of these characters, and that a number of these characters have some kind of No KB modifier on their powers.

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

Well' date=' one very easy way to impliment KB in limited situations for all genre would be to have it only occur when the attack roll would otherwise be considered a 'critical hit' (regardless if the extra damage rules associated with that is being used). This would help differentiate glancing blows that still do normal damage from square-on hits that convey more force on the target.[/quote']

Part of the requirement, though, is you still need a way to enhance KB where that's really the desired end-goal, such as where a martial artist deliberately knocks back just to create space between himself and his opponent, for example.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

Part of the requirement' date=' though, is you still need a way to enhance KB where that's really the desired end-goal, such as where a martial artist deliberately knocks back just to create space between himself and his opponent, for example.[/quote']

 

Isn't that already covered by the Martial Shove maneuver?! If not, just create a new martial strike variation that gives no damage bonus but uses 'super' KB rules.

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

Isn't that already covered by the Martial Shove maneuver?! If not' date=' just create a new martial strike variation that gives no damage bonus but uses 'super' KB rules.[/quote']

Maybe that's adequate, re Martial Shove, I was just thinking of something more generalized (i.e., not a specific purchase).

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

I've spent a fair amount of time in martial arts. I'm a fairly normal (if freakishly tall) kind of guy and have been involved in combat with other farily normal kind of guys. KB is a very real thing.

 

I've taken hits that moved me back a few feet...and I don't have anywhere near a 60 STR.

 

KB is realistic and a natural progression from what we can experience in real life. It is also in genre, since we frequently see Spidey knock that snot out of someone and send him flying. Yes, there are a lot of characters that never seem to do knockback. I think Champions does an admirable job of recreating most of the logic of these characters, and that a number of these characters have some kind of No KB modifier on their powers.

 

Then you will also know that what matters is where and how you are hit: a fast and powerful hit or kick to the side of the head might KO or even kill someone, but is never going to do much KB because the leverage is all wrong: bits will bend and the impact will be absorbed long before it moves you very far. Well, you may fall over, I suppose. Ditto a blow to the legs or arms, or even the shoulders.

 

However, a nicely centred kick, even if it is not that hard, can move someone a considerable distance. Plant a boot in their centre of mass and PUSH and they can positively fly back, even if you do it practically in slow motion.

 

Hero does not differentiate in KB terms, about where you are hit, or the way in which you are hit. Maybe it should.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

One interesting (to me) point about superstrong characters that I never really understood, is that the damage from a blow is only nominally a product of strength, and far more in fact a product of speed, and getting your body mass behind the blow (so technique). Transmitting energy to the target is the aim of the game, not, generally, wasting it in hefting them across the room. That is what throws are for, when the damage comes from the landing.

 

If we wanted to be 'realistic' about KB then a 60 STR character weighing 100kg who punched a wall weighing several tons would do some KB alright. He'd end up on his backside somewhere over that-a-way.

 

So let us not fool ourselves that KB is anything other than the aping of a genre convention, and let us look carefully at what that convention actually is and what it does.

 

It demonstrates the astonishing level of power that is being applied. That, really, really is the job of the GM and his astonishing descriptive powers (female GMs don't have astonishing descriptive powers but do have high level psionic powers that make you think they do).

 

It enables characters to be moved around the battlefield. Again, usually for dramatic effect.

 

It is rarely if ever used as an additional way to damage a character: generally whatever they hit is a lot less painful than the blow that caused them to hit it (with the every-genre staple of flying back onto a protruding spike the exception), and enables characters to make soliliquies as they lie there in the rubble, mainly for dramatic effect.

 

It is used, once more for dramatic effect, to enable villains, and sometimes heroes, to escape.

 

I'm just hearing 'dramatic effect' repeated over and over. I'm beginning to think that we missed the point entirely on this one.

[Just Joe]

Re: KB discussion

 

I'm in agreement with almost all of what Sean Waters has written in this thread regarding the proper role of knockback, but I have different thoughts on how to go about "fixing" it ("fixing" in quotes, because it's only broken for those campaigns and groups that it doesn't work for).

 

I see two problems: knockback being too common, and knockback being insufficiently correlated with the strength of the hit. I have an approach that I have designed to solve both of these problems. It is intended for a particular campaign that defies easy description, but is perhaps similar to street level supers in that I want some knockback, especially for powerful attacks, but want considerably less than the standard rules produce. If you like the general approach, the details can be tweaked to get the results you want. (Note: I personally do not think KB should be tied to how much damage gets past defenses, so this will not appeal to those of you who do).

 

Here is my approach. Everyone gets a default KB resistance of BOD/2. KB dice are d3, not d6.

 

12 BOD attack on standard rules does avg. KB of 12-7=5" KB

12 BOD attack vs. 10 BOD target (my rules) does avg. KB of 12-5-4 = 3"

Many combatants should have more body.

12 BOD attack vs. 14 BOD target (my rules) does avg. KB of 12-7-4 = 1"

Many bricks should have a lot more body.

12 BOD attack vs. 20 BOD target (my rules) does avg. KB of 12-10-4 => 0"

 

Note that KBR can be bought up or down (like, e.g., leaping based on strength). Yes, this makes BOD more valuable, but since KBR is overpriced (as SW has argued) and BOD is currently among the lowest primary characteristics on many, many characters, that's fine with me. This reduces the difference between KA/MA and normal attacks and flying target vs. non-flying -- no big deal to me but you can tweak my rules if you care.

 

Whaddaya think?

[schir1964]

Re: KB discussion

 

Maybe that's adequate' date=' re Martial Shove, I was just thinking of something more generalized (i.e., not a specific purchase).[/quote']

Couldn't you extrapolate and create a Shove maneuver that is available to everyone?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

Well' date=' it's been noted this is an average 8d6 Energy Blast, delivering 8 points of pre-defense BOD. That will do considerable damage to a typical wall. Why would that not be enough impact to knock a 150 lb - 200 lb person back, regardless of how tough their skin may be?[/quote']

 

I could do considerable damage to a brick wall with a sledge hammer, but probably not do any KB against a normal adult I hit with a sledge hammer, because it is all to do with how the damage is transmitted: when I swing a sledge horizontally, it is relatively slow moving compared to, say, a punch or kick, but has way more momentum. The wall takes ALL of that and cracks, the person folds around the blow and absorbs much more of the impact. Think of hitting a 200lb bad of flour with a sledge hammer: it is going nowhere. Hell, a 50 pound bag probably wouldn't move far, if at all. It might burst though.

 

Now if I can swing the sledge vertically, I get gravity to boost my muscle and there is a lot more momentum involved, but then the ground is in the way

 

I come back to the point I made above: we are not modelling reality. Most energy blasts should have no KB, different types of blows should have differeing KB.

 

I don't care whether it is right or wrong but my gut instinct is that a 50 STR, 8 metre tall giant swinging a tree at a character should do more, or at least more consistent KB, than a 60 STR midget unloading a punch into someone's crotch.

 

The latter will hurt a hell of a lot more, but the former will allow the victim to know the joys of flying, at least for a time.

 

Making KB more appropriate would be a good thing, rather than just plastering it over everything. Less is more.

[Just Joe]

Re: KB discussion

 

Hero does not differentiate in KB terms' date=' about where you are hit, or the way in which you are hit. Maybe it should.[/quote']Though I'm generally sympathetic to your statements in this thread, you're being a bit schizophrenic. Are you looking for realism or not? I'm all in favor of options to match campaign style and GM and group tastes.

 

For more realistic games that use hit locations, a simple adjustment would be to halve KB body for 1/2 BOD hit locations (while NOT doubling for 2X BOD locations).

 

For games that don't use hit locations, the KB roll can represent the way in which you are hit.

 

One could add KB modifiers for particular manuevers, but doing so for more than one or two manuevers is probably way more trouble than it's worth.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

Though I'm generally sympathetic to your statements in this thread, you're being a bit schizophrenic. Are you looking for realism or not? I'm all in favor of options to match campaign style and GM and group tastes.

 

For more realistic games that use hit locations, a simple adjustment would be to halve KB body for 1/2 BOD hit locations (while NOT doubling for 2X BOD locations).

 

For games that don't use hit locations, the KB roll can represent the way in which you are hit.

 

One could add KB modifiers for particular manuevers, but doing so for more than one or two manuevers is probably way more trouble than it's worth.

 

A BIT schizophrenic? I resesnt that.

 

I have full blown hebrephrenic schizophrenia, I'm bipolar and paranoid, and that's before I've started drinking*.

 

I think, if memory serves, the reason, if reason I had, for mentioning this was, as has already been alluded to, KB is really an artefact of the superhero genre and, as hasn't, hit locations aren't, so the 'damaging hits' (which might logically be the ones that hit the most delicate places, even if we do not mechanically have delicate places (hence the lack of the foil packed courgette even in the tightest costumes)) i.e. the ones that score highest BODY, in a superhero game, are probably, by a process of logical deduction (logical for me, at least, but see above) the ones least likely to cause KB.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Not technically true: I've ALWAYS started drinking.

[Dust Raven]

Re: KB discussion

 

Does anyone here watch Mythbusters? There was a recent episode dealing with a myth about a moving train's wake sucking a person off the platform. One of the tests they performed was with a relatively low amount of compressed air vs. an un-braced target. I believe they determined that less than 100 psi was enough to knock someone off balance if not on their butt.

Mythbusters is one of the few shows I do watch. Excellent show!

 

There are a lot of physics that go into knocking someone off their feat, and it all has to do with inertia. If the object striking the target doesn't have more inertia than the target, the target won't move. It's why bullets don't knock you back, even shotgun shells, but a car moving only 25mph could knock you off the road. The KB rules don't really take this into account. The closest they get is making KA do less KB on average, and assume a Martial Arts Maneuver is delivered to precicely to do much KB.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the discussion, but I thought I'd share.

 

[secretID]

Re: KB discussion

 

In what way? This can't be tied to the BODY done then' date=' since in most supers games, no BODY gets through, so when would anyone take KB? If you base it off of STUN taken, how would you determine the KB fairly and consistantly? The STUN from any attack varies by quite a bit.[/quote']

 

In something like the way I said:

I'd like to see a default KB of something like (after-defense normal damage minus 10) divided by 4.

 

In any case' date=' while I agree that anyone who takes KB usually makes a "ooph!" noise as they get hit, an "ooph!" noise does not mean they actually took STUN or BODY.[/quote']

That's unresolvable, of course - all I can say is that it seems to me that there's usually at least a little harm involved.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

Mythbusters is one of the few shows I do watch. Excellent show!

 

...

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the discussion, but I thought I'd share.

 

 

now I wan't to make up the Mythbusters as superheroes!

[secretID]

Re: KB discussion

 

Well' date=' it's been noted this is an average 8d6 Energy Blast, delivering 8 points of pre-defense BOD. That will do considerable damage to a typical wall. Why would that not be enough impact to knock a 150 lb - 200 lb person back, regardless of how tough their skin may be?[/quote']

As I said (repeatedly, I think), it makes sense to me in "real" physics terms - it just doesn't mimic the comics well, IMO. A car at 35 MPH would send an unsuspecting 1000-lb. figure flying, but IIRC, there's been plenty of those scenes in which the car smashes against the brick as if he's a wall.