KB discussion

[Sean Waters]

KB is a bit of a problem. I don't really see it as a damage causing technique: just buying normal damage dice has to be favourite for that. It is useful tactically though for moving opponents around the battlefield and keeping them off balance.

 

Having said that any game with damage DCs of 8 or more is likely to do SOME KB on most attacks. This is a bit daft. Even in the comics that are the source material you do not see every attack doing KB, and I can't believe that every character is bracing against KB or had bought KBR.

 

Anyway, that is a systemic problem: I do have a solution: attacks don't do KB unless you pull a 'KB manouvre' which, oh I don't know, could allow KB, reduce damage by 2 dice but add 4 dice to that for KB, or it does normal damage but takes -1 OCV/-1 DCV.

 

Thta would cut down the instance of KB whilst still making it available in system for that super smack.

 

Alternatively you could simply assume it only applies to haymakers and move throughs.

 

One other point: the cost of KB, or rather defending against it. According to the book 'no KB' is a -1/4 limitation, so 1d6 EB with no KB would cost 4 points: the value of (potentially) 1d6 of KB is 1 point. So why does the defence cost 2 points?

 

Does anyone else see KB as a problem at all? Do you have your own solutions?

[Warp9]

Re: KB discussion

 

Mayfair's DC Heroes system had a way of doing KNB that pretty much functions in the manner you describe.

 

It has been a while, but if memory serves, it went like this:

 

The power of the attack set an upper bound on the amount of knock back that you could do. But the attack roll was what set the amount of KNB you got.

 

Examples:

 

Superman on an average roll would do no knock back because it was an average roll.

 

Joe Normal would do no knock back, even on a good roll, because his strength is not great enough to do knock back.

 

Superman, on a very good roll, could knock somebody to the moon (yes, the game was exponential--and so was knockback ).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

Sean,

 

What non-brick comic character(s) are you referring to that don't 'normally' take KB from attacks? I mean examples that are not Force Wall based like Green Lantern.

[The Souljourner]

Re: KB discussion

 

Yeah, I think most characters get knocked back from most decent hits. I mean, heck, even non-supers in the movies get kicked 10 feet back into walls, mirrors, through windows, etc. And that's normals. I think most of the time when you get hit solidly, you go flying. Maybe a lot of the energy projectors take "does no knockback" *shrug*.

 

-Nate

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

I don't like the effects of KB, I'm not opposed to characters being able of doing so but to my mind that should be a more unusual feature. The way I manage it is via the following rule:

 

Knockback is less effective. Any character with "significant resistant defenses" (GM's discretion) automatically adds +1d6 to the roll, period. Most serious super-characters have this - everyone in the Justice Squad does (Sammy's and Troll's "rubbery" bodies afford a similar resistance as smacks tend to go into or through them as much as against them). In general, that means you're rolling against 3d6. If the BOD damage does not exceed resistant defenses, add 1d6 to the knockback roll as well. So much of the time it's against 4d6, as BOD rarely gets through. However, the 1.5x and double knockback options are available at 1/4 less than book price. Also, a character may voluntary use the old knockback rules when they are targeted as a method of creating distance albeit with damage. This is not the same as rolling with the punch, which you may abort to as preferred.

[Tech]

Re: KB discussion

 

In the campaign I'm part of, we have a houserule called 'The Brick Rule'. We use for bricks beating on each other. It seems a little sill for two bricks to knock each other all over the battlefield with every blow and spend phases running back up to each other. The houserule automatically ignores any knockback for those two combatants.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

In the campaign I'm part of' date=' we have a houserule called 'The Brick Rule'. We use for bricks beating on each other. It seems a little sill for two bricks to knock each other all over the battlefield with every blow and spend phases running back up to each other. The houserule automatically ignores any knockback for those two combatants.[/quote']

 

There is nothing wrong with handling the common brick vs. brick situation that way. However, I would counter that a 'true brick' wouldn't worry about getting hit more often if it meant keeping his footing which is why there are rules for bracing against KB. It takes CV out of the forefront and replaces it with their ability to deal and withstand damage. This happens in the comic source material all the time but very infrequently (if ever) in HERO combats. This is not that different than when boxers go on a complete offensive flurry (ignoring opportunities to block incomming blows).

[secretID]

Re: KB discussion

 

I haven't thought too much about it, but I'd like to see it tied to the amount of damage that actually gets through defenses.

 

I understand that it some ways it is more realistic in a pure physics sense for a C with a strong personal defenses to nonetheless get sent flying by a big hit, but I don't like it b/c: 1) In the source material, if a C is sent flying, he almost certainly took some damage; 2) It makes for the silly combats already mentioned here.

 

The brick fight house rule is good, but is it really any better for an EB that doesn't get through a force field to nonetheless send the target flying?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: KB discussion

 

Plenty of ways to address it if you feel it's a problem. Some possible ideas:

 

Add extra dice to the base KB calculation.

 

Only count half the BODY for KB calculation purposes.

 

Give everybody free KB reduction, perhaps based off of BODY (like BODY/5).

 

Assume that everyone pulls their punches unless otherwise stated, and give no penalty (CV, etc) for doing so. Perhaps even assign an OCV penalty to "going all out" and getting full BODY damage.

 

Calculate possible KB as normal, but after calculations are done, the max KB that can occur is equal to the number of sixes on the damage roll. So, a 12d6 punch that did 11 BODY (with two sixes rolled) and would normally do 4" on average, but in this case is restricted to 2".

 

Use knockdown instead, and/or make "does knockback" an advantage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

....

 

The brick fight house rule is good, but is it really any better for an EB that doesn't get through a force field to nonetheless send the target flying?

 

Well, it sounds like you are referring to EB's that don't get through a Force Wall (which is a completely different animal than Force Field). Some major villians like Magneto, Doctor Doom and countless cosmic bad guys could be modeled in HERO with Huge Force Walls plus entire Attack Multipowers with the Indirect Advantage (+1/4) with the only purpose being to allow the attacks to be fired through their own Force Walls. As hideously expensive this approach is, it seems unlikely to fit typical (~350 pt) HERO combats. And before someone mentions it, I consider Green Lantern and most of the Justice League to be in the near cosmic category too.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

More on the classic Brick vs. Brick fight,

 

If the combatants are concerned about not taking KB but also don't want to make themselves complete sitting ducks due to bracing against KB CV penalties they can certainly apply levels to DCV or use the good ol' Block manuever. (Remember, it stops KB when successful)

 

The final episode of Justice League Unlimited showcased a classic example of this in a fight between Superman and Darksied that easily lasted several turns if not minutes in HERO terms. Some KB was done once in every few blows. some blows were blocked. And any KB resistance that Darksied had was clearly due to bracing against Superman's attacks. How else would Batman be able to knock Darksied to the ground with an attack from suprise?

[secretID]

Re: KB discussion

 

Well' date=' it sounds like you are referring to EB's that don't get through a Force Wall (which is a completely different animal than Force Field).[/quote']

No, I meant force field. As I said, while it does make sense to me in "real" physics terms that 200-lb. Diamond Man (30 ED) or 150-lb. Gadget Gal (30 ED force field) would be sent flying by a 28-point EB, I have the objections I mentioned.

 

In comics, when a C is sent flying there's almost always a grunt or grimace, even if the C isn't knocked out.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

No, I meant force field. As I said, while it does make sense to me in "real" physics terms that 200-lb. Diamond Man (30 ED) or 150-lb. Gadget Gal (30 ED force field) would be sent flying by a 28-point EB, I have the objections I mentioned.

 

In comics, when a C is sent flying there's almost always a grunt or grimace, even if the C isn't knocked out.

 

Well, I am going to assume that by '28-point EB' that you mean 28 points of STUN which implies a rather low amount of BODY rolled no matter what the number of dice involved. If this is the case and a considerable amount of KB got past the default 2d6 'KB defense' I would just consider it a lucky blow that caught C off balance. If this happens to C all the time maybe some XP spent on Breakfall would be in order.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

KB in comics is used for dramatic and storytelling purposes: to demonstrate just how hard that blow really was, or to get a charcter out of the way so that the villain can escape, or when the blow that did the KB KOd them anyway and they fly back and a wall falls on them, which perhaps explains why the villain does not bother to dig them out to wring their scrawny neck.

 

The 'bracing against KB' manouvre in Hero only works for an attack from a particular direction (or I'd rule you could say 'from a particular oppponent') but Hero allows movement around a character without restriction so this is easy to overcome.

 

Now thre are various 'fixes' in Hero. You can just buy KBR, but it seems odd that every character needs it and developed it. In any event it is hard to justify: the Thing may have some KBR because he is heavy and squat, but he has no 'powers that prevent him moving' - IIRC The Thing is supposed to weigh about 400 lbs, so you can justify maybe -1" KBR and that is it.

 

You can build KBR as a sort of 'automatic combat manouvre' - rolling with the blow, so to speak, or quickly planting yourself, but it seems unfortunate to me that EVERYONE who expects to get hit at all, especially in high powered games, should probably buy the power. And let us not forget, the power is not cheap.

 

You can increase the number of dice or hand out automatic KBR, but all that does is shift the threshold, and would mean that low powered games can never have KB, and low powered comic characters DO do KB sometimes.

 

You can take the HyperMan route and decide that all powerful characters have force walls, but that seems like a long stretch to overcome KB, and it doesn't seem likely: if you DID have a force wall defence that WAS breached and so you took KB, hitting ANYTHING would be likey to splat you, and powerful characters in comics DO get KB'd. Now and then.

 

The advantage of making KB manouvre reliant is that you don't have to worry about every punch causing KB - which will speed combat - one of the Hero conrmnerstone problems - both in terms of not having to make rolls every time AND not having to waste all those half phases, or even full phases, getting back into combat.

 

It is still not a perfect fit: Grond hits Captain Wimpy, but because he did not use a KB manouvre, CW just falls over unconscious at his feet rather than ricochetting off the nearest building? Unlikely.

 

The problem is that it is a game assumption that it will happen, and so built in to the mechanics of combat. Easy enough to excise completely, but it is a genre appropriate thing and I think it does have its place.

 

Also there is a system assumption (from the roots of the game where 8-10DC was the range of damages for almost all characters) that superpowered attacks would generally cause a SMALL amount of KB, so 3 or 4 points of KBR would make you pretty safe (and didn't it used to be cheaper, or is that just me?) and you generally didn't need to worry too much about killing and martial art attacks.

 

As the power levels of games have gone up, but the assumption regarding the breakpoint on KB has not changed, this is a problem that Hero is developing more and more.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

Well' date=' I am going to assume that by '28-point EB' that you mean 28 points of STUN which implies a rather low amount of BODY rolled no matter what the number of dice involved. If this is the case and a considerable amount of KB got past the default 2d6 'KB defense' I would just consider it a lucky blow that caught C off balance. If this happens to C all the time maybe some XP spent on Breakfall would be in order.[/quote']

 

28 points of stun is average for an 8d6 EB which, again using average figures will cause 1" of KB: not a lot, but it does demonstrate that even pretty minor attacks are likely to cause KB most of the time. Breakfall will allow him to land on his feet but may not be appropriate for the charcter concept.

[secretID]

Re: KB discussion

 

28 points of stun is average for an 8d6 EB which' date=' again using average figures will cause 1" of KB: not a lot, but it does demonstrate that even pretty minor attacks are likely to cause KB most of the time. Breakfall will allow him to land on his feet but may not be appropriate for the charcter concept.[/quote']

And a flying character takes 3.5" more. Gadget Gal, flying, with only slightly unlucky rolls (9 BOD minus three on the KB die) would be sent 40 ft. from a shot she never felt.

 

I'd like to see a default KB of something like (after-defense normal damage minus 10) divided by 4.

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

Although I indicated my personal opinion and house rule on it, I think the system treats it fine - because opinions vary so much, and the purpose of a core book in a so-called universal system is to suggest at least "a standard way, not necessarily the only way. I think any KB tinkering just slants it to one direction or another, whereas it is a rather easy thing to deal with for people as it stands. Just salt to taste.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: KB discussion

 

If I were going to sun another Supers campaign, or something else with KB as the default rule (Wild Martial arts, mabe) I'd seriously consider this modification to KB.

Decrease KB (Add 1 die) if defender is aware of attack (i.e. not suprised)

Increase KB (Remove 1 die) if defender is Stunned or KO'ed.

 

This alters the range of common KB results dramatically without totally unbalancing things, and seems to fit with most of the above-mentioned genre tropes & examples. In most circumstances it will lead to significantly less KB, however, and would probably warrant a shift in the value of Increased KB downwards by -1/4

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

And a flying character takes 3.5" more. Gadget Gal, flying, with only slightly unlucky rolls (9 BOD minus three on the KB die) would be sent 40 ft. from a shot she never felt.

 

I'd like to see a default KB of something like (after-defense normal damage minus 10) divided by 4.

 

I understand where you're going with the math.

 

But really, what does a few inches of KB really do to Gadget Gal? If she has a ranged attack it just means that she'll burn a 1/2 phase getting up before doing something else (like blasting the muscle headed jerk who knocked her into that wall!).

 

As others have pointed out, just getting hiit in a team vs. team supers fight should have some negative consequence if the participants are hit from suprise. KB is just another way to encourage players to fight with a little more caution so all the other flavor aspects of HERO combat can shine like: Defense Manuver I-IV, Coordinated Attacks (yes, a team of agents can delay/pin-down a 'brick' with KB alone even if their weapons don't actually 'hurt' him).

 

I'll admit though, this level of detailed modeling of the source material (supers) begins to border on wargaming in compexity and I have few gaming locally that are into that aspect of RPG combat.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: KB discussion

 

I just read most of the posts. And thinking of the early posts, what fights in comics lack KB?

 

I remember an issue of the Hulk where Hercules, Namor, Wonder Man, and Iron Man try to subdue the Hulk. The KB from the pounding (including shellhead's repulsor rays) destroyed 6 six blocks before Hulk won.

 

Prior to taunting the Thing into a fight to work out aggression over Johnny and Alicia's wedding (pre-she's a skrull), Jen made sure to locate a building scheduled for demolition to fight in b/c she knew the KB would be devestating. The demolition crew ended up with an early completion bonus after the two's punching at each other destroyed the whole building.

 

Even Batman and Robin score 1-2" KB results fighting thugs.

 

Most fights in comics feature KB.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: KB discussion

 

I tend for the easier solution of adding an extra die to the 'anti-knockback roll', so 3d6 is the standard (rather than 2), and all things modify off that, which reduces it significantly ... assuming average rolls, a 12d6 attack's knockback drops from 5" (12-7) to 1" (12-11). You could easily make that a 4d6 starting die, meaning that if 12d6 is your 'typical' attack, you'll have to Haymaker or Move-Through to get Knockback.

 

On the other hand, I kinda like the flying bodies. I use Knockback in Fantasy Games.

[secretID]

Re: KB discussion

 

KB is just another way to encourage players to fight with a little more caution so all the other flavor aspects of HERO combat can shine like: Defense Manuver I-IV, Coordinated Attacks (yes, a team of agents can delay/pin-down a 'brick' with KB alone even if their weapons don't actually 'hurt' him).

 

I'll admit though, this level of detailed modeling of the source material (supers) begins to border on wargaming in compexity and I have few gaming locally that are into that aspect of RPG combat.

Yeah - that's pretty self-conscious use of the rules. I can picture a comic (since we're focusing on supers) in which the hero team employs KB tactics against a force field villain - in the climax of the story, they figure out that though he's invulnerable, he's not immobile, and they gradually knock him into a lake or something. But that would be the exceptional case - that villain's Achilles' heel. The general case is that if you were hit hard enough to take KB, you were hurt some (IIRC - I haven't read too many straight supers comics lately).

[secretID]

Re: KB discussion

 

I just read most of the posts. And thinking of the early posts, what fights in comics lack KB?

 

I remember an issue of the Hulk where Hercules, Namor, Wonder Man, and Iron Man try to subdue the Hulk. The KB from the pounding (including shellhead's repulsor rays) destroyed 6 six blocks before Hulk won.

My issue isn't the amount of KB, but KB relative to post-defense damage, at least in some cases. Comic fights, especially between bricks, have lots of KB, but you usually see evidence of harm from those shots (grimace, "argh," cracked armor, etc.). The Hulk's a special case, but I bet even in that fight, he at least gave up an "oof" or something.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: KB discussion

 

...(since we're focusing on supers) ...

 

Well, actually 5er states pretty clearly on page 418 that the knockback rules are intended for supers only. Heroic games should use the knockdown rules instead. So basically, when discussing KB you are by default already talking about supers.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: KB discussion

 

My issue isn't the amount of KB' date=' but KB relative to post-defense damage, at least in some cases. Comic fights, especially between bricks, have lots of KB, but you usually see evidence of harm from those shots (grimace, "argh," cracked armor, etc.). The Hulk's a special case, but I bet even in that fight, he at least gave up an "oof" or something.[/quote']

 

Hence the reasoning behind my house rule suggestion above. It'd increase the range of KB delivered by the same attack, depending somewhat on other circumstances.

For Example...

A 12d6 N attack hits someone. Assume an average Body roll of 12

If the target is aware and unstunned by the shot, he rolls 3 dice and thus is knocked back 1"-2". This is the automatic inherent bracing and "rolling with the blow" (not the maneuver) that everyone does in combat.

If the target is hit from suprise and remains unstunned (thus not "rolling with it", but not freefalling either), or is stunned/KO'ed, he rolls 2 dice and takes 5" KB, the same amount taken by a flier (now...assuming that fliers will also be 'bracing" with their power when in combat flight. I'd count Noncombat flight as "Unaware")

If the target is Suprised & Stunned by the shot, he goes sailing. Rolls 1 die, and averages 8"-9" KB. Ditto if the Target is a flier and is either suprised or staggered.

If a suprise shot takes out our poor flier in flight, he takes the whole body roll in KB. Buh Bye.

Heck, I've gotten close to 3" of KB with a flyswatter

This allows for a nice range of KB, with bricks going toe to toe mostly staying put except when someone lands a good shot. The double jepoardy enhancement for Suprise Attacks (as noncombat suprise would inflict double Stun, thus almost guaranteeing the extra KB for a stunned target) is deliberate to allow suprise attacks to throw a lot of damage... really blast people out of the way, a classic Genre trope (gives the poor sucker-punched sap a chance to grab a couple of recoveries while the rest of the team toes off with the big bad), as well as a means to counterbalance the reduction in common KB.