KB discussion

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

You could always purchase -inches versus Knockdown.

[CraterMaker]

Re: KB discussion

 

Umm... I"m a little confused here - What I've got out of this conversation is that A) Knockback is supposed to mimic certain genre tropes, but is slightly flawed

The mechanism of Knockback should be tinkered with to give you the general effects you want per genre

C) Hero is flexible enough to do so...

 

Without knowing what genre we're doing, how we gonna adequately model it?

 

Or did I miss something? What were we talking about again??

 

-CraterMaker

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

Umm... I"m a little confused here - What I've got out of this conversation is that A) Knockback is supposed to mimic certain genre tropes, but is slightly flawed

The mechanism of Knockback should be tinkered with to give you the general effects you want per genre

C) Hero is flexible enough to do so...

 

Without knowing what genre we're doing, how we gonna adequately model it?

 

Or did I miss something? What were we talking about again??

 

-CraterMaker

 

Well ideally I would like to see a system that did niot need to differentiate between heroic and superheroic genres, but that is difficult as there is such a broad range of possible results.

 

My solution would be defining existing manouvres and/or creating new ones that were the only type of attack that did KB/KD, rather than relying on the current ubiquity.

[Vondy]

Re: KB discussion

 

Well ideally I would like to see a system that did niot need to differentiate between heroic and superheroic genres, but that is difficult as there is such a broad range of possible results.

 

My solution would be defining existing manouvres and/or creating new ones that were the only type of attack that did KB/KD, rather than relying on the current ubiquity.

 

Over the years, while I continue to love hero, I have concluded that there is no such thing as a Universal System. It simply isn't possible to model all genres using one scale and a single uniform ruleset. You can have a common set of core rules, but you will need optional rules for modelling genre effects that are unique to the genres in question. To work well a system has to be tailored to the genre, and to that end, I think Hero would have done well not to incorporate One Scale To Rule Them All into the Core Rules, and to relegate more rules to the optional category with notes about what to apply and what not to apply, and what scale works best, in the genre books. Or the genre by genre section of the Core Rules. What works for superheroic rubber science does not work for gritty heroic realism. And in that vein - why would you want to apply Knockback over all genres when it was clearly intended to model the effects of a limited scope of genres (if not one specific genre)? Knockback should be an optional rule designated for superheroic and highly cinematic games where that effect is appropriate, not a general rule, and I'm pretty sure the rules say (or, at least they used to) that it doesn't apply to Heroic games. For heroic games you use Knockdown - a different mechanic. As it should be.

[CraterMaker]

Re: KB discussion

 

Well ideally I would like to see a system that did niot need to differentiate between heroic and superheroic genres, but that is difficult as there is such a broad range of possible results.

 

My solution would be defining existing manouvres and/or creating new ones that were the only type of attack that did KB/KD, rather than relying on the current ubiquity.

 

I think my problem is imagining one set of kb rules for heroic games and another set for superheroic... My brain keeps saying "Okay, for THIS heroic type game, how do I want kb to work... " I'm parsing the distinctions much finer than you, apparantly. But that's cool, and the name of the game (It IS called the Toolkit)..

 

-CraterMaker

 

But I like the idea of Manuevers that change the amount of KB done, like Roll With The Blow and Pulling The Punch.. More like this I'd love to see, Sean - even if I use them in a way different from what you might've intended..

[Dust Raven]

Re: KB discussion

 

I was hit by a car once' date=' it was probably going 30 or so, and went flying, I am told, about 6 feet up and landing about 6 feet away. I know how far I went and that sounds right, I wasn't really particularly thoughtful or perceptive during the flight so have no idea aside from I know I left the ground![/quote']

I was hit by a Cadillac pulling into a parking lot once and was thrown nearly 10 feet away. It couldn't have been moving more than 10 mph. Of course, I was on a bicycle which might have been bought as Flight instead of Running, or I might have Rolled With Punch.

 

See?! And I bet you grimaced AND said' date=' "Argh!" That's all I'm saying.[/quote']

 

Lot's of people to "Argh!" and don't go flying, and I'm sure if zornwil was a bag of sand, which wouldn't take any kind of damage at all from such an impact, he'd still have gone flying.

 

As a point of note, I did not go Argh! when I went flying. It was closer to "Holy s***!!! What did you do to my bike? It looks like a taco now!!!" For some reason, I was miraculously unharmed and otherwise unphased by the event. Or I was in shock.

[zornwil]

Re: KB discussion

 

I was hit by a Cadillac pulling into a parking lot once and was thrown nearly 10 feet away. It couldn't have been moving more than 10 mph. Of course, I was on a bicycle which might have been bought as Flight instead of Running, or I might have Rolled With Punch.

 

 

 

Lot's of people to "Argh!" and don't go flying, and I'm sure if zornwil was a bag of sand, which wouldn't take any kind of damage at all from such an impact, he'd still have gone flying.

 

As a point of note, I did not go Argh! when I went flying. It was closer to "Holy s***!!! What did you do to my bike? It looks like a taco now!!!" For some reason, I was miraculously unharmed and otherwise unphased by the event. Or I was in shock.

As far as I know, I didn't go "Argh!", I think I went a vague, inaudible, "Uh-". Then I couldn't breathe, so made no sound.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

I was hit by a Cadillac pulling into a parking lot once and was thrown nearly 10 feet away. It couldn't have been moving more than 10 mph. Of course, I was on a bicycle which might have been bought as Flight instead of Running, or I might have Rolled With Punch.

 

 

 

Lot's of people to "Argh!" and don't go flying, and I'm sure if zornwil was a bag of sand, which wouldn't take any kind of damage at all from such an impact, he'd still have gone flying.

 

As a point of note, I did not go Argh! when I went flying. It was closer to "Holy s***!!! What did you do to my bike? It looks like a taco now!!!" For some reason, I was miraculously unharmed and otherwise unphased by the event. Or I was in shock.

 

 

It was the bike that was hit, not you, so it was the bike that took the direct damage. The bike also took KB, as did you because you were attached to it. You make your breakfall roll and so any damage was below your PD. Reality is obviously finally getting itself together and conforming to the Hero rules.

 

I'm sending a copy of 5er to Stephen Hawkins to see if it helps. Expect the final version of the Unified Field Theory around early December.

[Dust Raven]

Re: KB discussion

 

It was the bike that was hit' date=' not you, so it was the bike that took the direct damage. The bike also took KB, as did you because you were attached to it. You make your breakfall roll and so any damage was below your PD. Reality is obviously finally getting itself together and conforming to the Hero rules.[/quote']

 

Not true. If it was the bike that took the KB, then it would have moved. Instead, it rolled under the car. Also, if the rules for Move Throughs were in force, the car would have stopped dead after not doing KB to the bike and taken damage itself. Not only did the car keep moving, but it was unharmed.

 

Then again, if you write the bike up using extra Running rather than as a Vehicle, it was me that was hit, not the bike at all, and the only reason the bike took damage was because I bought it with the "Real Bicycle" Limitation.

[Just Joe]

Re: KB discussion

 

OK. First off, no matter how appropriate, anything other than 1d6 is never going to be generally popular in Hero.

 

Second BODY does not correlate to body mass, which is priobably the most important single factor for 'basic KBR': it could simply indicate that you are made of something tough but light, or have a very strong will to love. Of course people's opinons vary on that too.

 

Now the two problems you identify: ubiquity of KB and insufficent 'hit strength correlation' under this system are solved by the increased utility of BODY. I would imagine that this would just mean most people buying more BODY as it is not a more cost effective buy, which may have undesireable side effects for concept types.

 

The easiest way to correlate 'hit stength' with KB is to make the reduction a constant, and you can solve the first problem, at least to an extent, by making it a bigger than average constant:

 

0d6 = 0

1d6= 4

2d6 = 8

3d6 = 12

 

....and so on (so we used to roll BODY-2d6, we now calculate BODY-8). If you are still getting too much (or you htink there is too little) KB then you can just change the constant.

 

This has the added advantage of making the purchase of KRB more useful: no longer do you have to buy 10 points of KBR to be sure of not taking any KB from an average 12d6 hit, 3 points will see you pretty safe, which, in effect, also reduces the effective cost of KBR as you do not need to buy so much.

 

You still get KB variation as you still get BODY damage variation but the range is much narrower and more predicatable.

 

OK, that is a pretty negative review of the idea overall, but it is only by making suggestions and getting feedback that we can refine and advance our ideas and understanding, so substantial kudos for presenting a complete system as you did.

I apologize for requesting discussion of my idea and then disappearing. After this, I am probably going to disappear again for a while, as I need to spend more time designing for a campaign and less goofing off online.

 

I think Zornwil did a pretty good job of answering for me, but I'll add the following.

 

1. Surely there is a positive correlation between BOD and body mass, and the correlation would probably stronger if official sources didn't design large animals with too little BOD.

 

2. Figured charictaristics can be bought up or down, as can, for example, leaping, which I believe to be the better analogy here. (I also think this addresses Zornwil's concern about BOD that doesn't affect KBR; I would say that I would be as reluctant to allow it as STR that does not affect leaping -- better to sell back KBR or leaping).

 

3. My approach probably works best if KBR costs 1 point per 1", either for all KBR, or up to a certain limit analogous to NCM. One could pick 5" -- corresponding to 10 BOD, 10" -- corresponding to 10 BOD, or the particular character's BOD/2.

 

4. I wouldn't go with the -0, -4, -8, etc., because I like some variability in KB for attacks of the same type that do the same BOD, but it's a nice option for those who don't want that even that little variability.

 

I'm not sure I'll reply after this, and do not object if no one replies to me, but I thought I owed SW and Zornwil a reply.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

Not true. If it was the bike that took the KB, then it would have moved. Instead, it rolled under the car. Also, if the rules for Move Throughs were in force, the car would have stopped dead after not doing KB to the bike and taken damage itself. Not only did the car keep moving, but it was unharmed.

 

Then again, if you write the bike up using extra Running rather than as a Vehicle, it was me that was hit, not the bike at all, and the only reason the bike took damage was because I bought it with the "Real Bicycle" Limitation.

 

No your focus was attacked and destroyed, and the vehicle had bought double KB as sticky....

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

I apologize for requesting discussion of my idea and then disappearing. After this, I am probably going to disappear again for a while, as I need to spend more time designing for a campaign and less goofing off online.

 

I think Zornwil did a pretty good job of answering for me, but I'll add the following.

 

1. Surely there is a positive correlation between BOD and body mass, and the correlation would probably stronger if official sources didn't design large animals with too little BOD.

 

2. Figured charictaristics can be bought up or down, as can, for example, leaping, which I believe to be the better analogy here. (I also think this addresses Zornwil's concern about BOD that doesn't affect KBR; I would say that I would be as reluctant to allow it as STR that does not affect leaping -- better to sell back KBR or leaping).

 

3. My approach probably works best if KBR costs 1 point per 1", either for all KBR, or up to a certain limit analogous to NCM. One could pick 5" -- corresponding to 10 BOD, 10" -- corresponding to 10 BOD, or the particular character's BOD/2.

 

4. I wouldn't go with the -0, -4, -8, etc., because I like some variability in KB for attacks of the same type that do the same BOD, but it's a nice option for those who don't want that even that little variability.

 

I'm not sure I'll reply after this, and do not object if no one replies to me, but I thought I owed SW and Zornwil a reply.

 

Whatever is taking you away I hope it brings you back soon.

 

Do you know what I'd be inclined to do? Decide your mass, look it up ont he STR chart and use the STR you would need to lift that mass as the amount of BODY you should buy for the character (minimum 1, of course). Any additional BODY bought should be bought with the 'no figured characteristics' limtiation.

 

Now we assume that BODY includes KBR, as a figured stat and you get BODY/5 in KBR, and do away with the usual KB rules and do it as follows:

 

KB = Body damage done-KBR(-3 for killing attacks +3 for flying opponent etc)

 

This means that someone of a given strength will not KB an opponent of an equal BODY. Bit of a nightmare in superhero games as it will substantially increase KB, but should be ok in most other genres, and you can fix the superhero problem by allowing extra KBR to be bought at 1 point per -1".

 

It's an idea....

[Dust Raven]

Re: KB discussion

 

I apologize for requesting discussion of my idea and then disappearing. After this, I am probably going to disappear again for a while, as I need to spend more time designing for a campaign and less goofing off online.

 

I think Zornwil did a pretty good job of answering for me, but I'll add the following.

I hope to see you back soon! It's cool that you think of prepping a game is not goofing off.

 

1. Surely there is a positive correlation between BOD and body mass, and the correlation would probably stronger if official sources didn't design large animals with too little BOD.

Mass is only one possible SFX of the BODY Characteristic. Some people/things are just harder to kill/damage than others regardless of actual mass.

 

If you look at this thread, you'll find an option of making Mass its own Characteristic, which you could use to figure a KBR Figured Characteristic from.

 

2. Figured charictaristics can be bought up or down, as can, for example, leaping, which I believe to be the better analogy here. (I also think this addresses Zornwil's concern about BOD that doesn't affect KBR; I would say that I would be as reluctant to allow it as STR that does not affect leaping -- better to sell back KBR or leaping).

Actually, Figured Characteristics can all be bought up, one no more than one can ever be bought down. Turning Powers into Figured Characteristics elinimates, or reduces some of the flexibility in character creation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

Just chucking out ideas here, but you could rule that 'attacks you are expecting' get an additional +1d6 (or more if you like) on the KB roll, so two bricks hitting each other will rarely KB each other, but if one of them gets hit by a lateral EB from an opponent he had not noticed then he will go flying. It has the advantage of being a very simple fix that should not disrupt the game at all.

[Dust Raven]

Re: KB discussion

 

Just chucking out ideas here' date=' but you could rule that 'attacks you are expecting' get an additional +1d6 (or more if you like) on the KB roll, so two bricks hitting each other will rarely KB each other, but if one of them gets hit by a lateral EB from an opponent he had not noticed then he will go flying. It has the advantage of being a very simple fix that should not disrupt the game at all.[/quote']

I'd be willing to allow anyone to use their Casual STR to resist KB from any attack they are aware of unless they are Stunned, Concentrating, etc. That wouldn't make a huge difference for normals, but the super strong bricks will rarely be going anywhere unless cought off guard. Include some rules for using Sleight of Hand for a surprise attack and you end up with those awesome smackdowns that suddenly send one brick flying into the nearest bus full of nuns.

[Sean Waters]

Re: KB discussion

 

I'd be willing to allow anyone to use their Casual STR to resist KB from any attack they are aware of unless they are Stunned' date=' Concentrating, etc. That wouldn't make a huge difference for normals, but the super strong bricks will rarely be going anywhere unless cought off guard. Include some rules for using Sleight of Hand for a surprise attack and you end up with those awesome smackdowns that suddenly send one brick flying into the nearest bus full of nuns.[/quote']

 

Casual strength or casual move, perhaps?

 

Hmmm...or maybe get rid of KBR and make it an advantage for defences. You know: 12/8 armour (resists KB +1/4) 37 points: the armour then stops 12 physical damage and up to 12" of physical KB and 8 energy damage and 8" of energy KB. Good for modelling 'squishy' armour that deforms and such like, or forcefileds built as deflectors, or lots of stuff.

[Dust Raven]

Re: KB discussion

 

Casual strength or casual move, perhaps?

 

Hmmm...or maybe get rid of KBR and make it an advantage for defences. You know: 12/8 armour (resists KB +1/4) 37 points: the armour then stops 12 physical damage and up to 12" of physical KB and 8 energy damage and 8" of energy KB. Good for modelling 'squishy' armour that deforms and such like, or forcefileds built as deflectors, or lots of stuff.

I can see that mechanical effect working for some concepts, but not all. There are a lot of invulnerable rag dolls out there, and a lot of immovable squishies. Or if not a lot, enough that making KBR an Advatnage for Defenses would make them impossible or difficult to build.