Mental, the short stick?

[CourtFool]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

Unfortunatley if your concept it that you are Professor X and its a 60 AP max campaign' date=' the average guy on the street will break free from ypou powers 50% of the time.[/quote']

 

 

Professor X does not fit inside a 60 AP max campaign. I think you should discuss your expectations with your GM.

 

Achieving EGO+30 is not the equivalent to reducing a target to 0 STUN. Maybe closer to reducing a target to 0 STUN and Summon. Mind Control should be more expensive than Energy Blast.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

Professor X does not fit inside a 60 AP max campaign. I think you should discuss your expectations with your GM.

 

I think you missed my point here. I wasn't trying to imply that Professor X has a 60 pt. Mind Control, but that it's not fun for any mentalist with maxxed out Mind Control (at any power level) to have normals break out of it so easily.

 

Even using ghost's example (EGO 8, average roll of 42, EGO +20 desired effect) the average Joe will break out of mind control on the first try more than 1/3 of the time (a 9- roll). I suggest to any who have not played a Mentalist to try one. You will find that the GM won't "always" agree with what you think is an EGO +20 vs. an EGO +30 effect and that Breakout Rolls succeed more than you would like against those with "average" EGOs.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

My approach involves calculation and patience.

 

Mind Control, 12d6. Cumulative, Standard Effect, requires EGO+30. Standard Effect puts any attack right in at 36 points, which, darn it all, is a little too low for the average mook. So they accumulate, and wouldn't you know it, next round we're maxed out at 72 points of effect, and there they are at -6 to their breakout roll. It burns a lot of END, and in a pinch I have to try and sweep it, but rolling a 5- for a breakout roll is HARD work.

 

"I put a spell on you... Because you're mine!" - Screamin' Jay Hawkins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

The killer for me isn't how often' date=' it's that they make the darn initial breakout far too easily and even a smattering of mental defense means it doesn't have to be by hardly anything.[/quote']

 

12d6 Mind Control will average a 42 point roll, so Ego +34 on Joe Normal. He gets an 11- breakout roll (less if the task wasn't Ego +30, which is all too commonly used - I generally ask myself "would he rather kill himself than take the action requested?).

 

But it's also +30 or more on many Supers. Let's call that 11- a 10- Activation roll instead (-1 1/4 IIRC). Is it as effective as a 20d6 1/2 END + 2d6 at normal END EB that Acts 10- (same 60 point cost; same 6 END per use?).

 

Arguably - the EB will almost certainly exclude one opponent from the battle if it succeeds (77 average STUN would KO most of my characters). The 12d6 Mind Control will move control of one opponent to me, but he gets another "activation roll" at the end of the turn.

[Vorsch]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

I see no reason why a high ego opponent should escape from a "mind controll" easier than a low ego. It should be the mentalists choice if each +5 gives a -1 on breakout rolls or (+10) extra effect.

 

It should be a standard 11< roll, after all your attack suceeded but had to beat his ego, ergo people are on the same playing field whether they are galactus or john doe.

 

Maybe a roll would be rquired by any mind attack,"only got 20 against a 30 ego +2 to breakout casually"

[nexus]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

That would be like saying a High strength opponet shouldn't escape from an entangle any faster than a low strength opponent, IMO.

 

I do worry if as a GM I'm setting the thresholds for mental affects too high. I did like the comparison for +30 Ego effect mind control "Would the character rather die than commit this action?"

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

I do worry if as a GM I'm setting the thresholds for mental affects too high. I did like the comparison for +30 Ego effect mind control "Would the character rather die than commit this action?"

 

It's a good benchmark. If the answer is a strong no, or even a no, then the effect is probably EGO+20.

 

The Ultimate Mentalist does specifically mention that attacking a comrade in combat is an EGO+30 Effect. Of course, if they're just an associate or even someone they don't like much (rival between VIPER agents anyone?) I would lower that back to EGO+20.

 

I often feel that many GMs I've gamed with do set the Mind Control benchmark too high out of some irrational fear or other.

[Kristopher]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

If you want to be munchkin about it you can do some stuff to make a mentalist pretty fearsome.

 

An EGO drain with a delayed recovery makes a normal much more easy to take total mental control of. If it is just a normal you are going after then their EGO is going to be pretty low anyway.

 

EGO attacks are the simplest way to take out those without mental defenses. Since EGO attacks are LOS range is not a problem. You just have to avoid close quarters battles to maximize your advantage. Or have a GM who is willing to let you get away with X-Ray vision and telescopic senses (another really munchkin combination of powers).

 

An EGO attack with the advantage Does BODY is truly nasty since very few people buy damage resistance for their mental defenses. But its a pretty bloodthirsty attack for a hero.

 

IIRC, an EGO Attack with Does BODY doesn't bypass nonresistant Defenses any more than a EB does -- Does BODY doesn't turn an attack into a Killing Attack.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

IIRC' date=' an EGO Attack with Does BODY doesn't bypass nonresistant Defenses any more than a EB does -- Does BODY doesn't turn an attack into a Killing Attack.[/quote']

 

I used to think that normal defenses didn't protect against the BODY that a normal attack did; I just figured that HERO combat was deadly, and that the average person really COULD kill their opponents in a couple of punches....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

It's a good benchmark. If the answer is a strong no, or even a no, then the effect is probably EGO+20.

 

The Ultimate Mentalist does specifically mention that attacking a comrade in combat is an EGO+30 Effect. Of course, if they're just an associate or even someone they don't like much (rival between VIPER agents anyone?) I would lower that back to EGO+20.

 

I often feel that many GMs I've gamed with do set the Mind Control benchmark too high out of some irrational fear or other.

 

I find the real problem is that thge lower we set the bar for "ego +30", the less granularity we get. Presumably, "attack a different enemy" is generally Ego +0 - the character likely will anyway, once his current oppopnent is taken care of. At the other end, attacking a close freiend or loved one should generally be Ego +30. With that in mind, different targets should be at different levels.

 

Part of the problem with MC is different acts will be at varying levels for different characters. Marvel's Hercules, for example, would probably have a gradation based more on the power of the target than on his relationship - he's known to "give the gift of combat" to anyone he thinks can take it, in the belief he does them a great honour, so he might even be more inclined to grant "the Gift" to a friend than to a sworn enemy. Certainly no less so.

 

At the end of the day, the various levels are subjective, and a poor GM can certainly use that subjectivity to substantially reduce the value of the ability by setting the target numbers too high. Moving what should bbe an Ego +10 requirement to Ego +30 isn't a lot different from adding 20 defenses (the effective result is +20 mental defense for that paricular attack) to the target so that normal attacks have little or no effect - it's just less obvious.

 

IIRC' date=' an EGO Attack with Does BODY doesn't bypass nonresistant Defenses any more than a EB does -- Does BODY doesn't turn an attack into a Killing Attack.[/quote']

 

I've always been bothered with the idea of a KA vs an exotic defense bypassing virtually all instances of that defense. My simplistic solution? Exotic defenses should be considered to act as resistant defenses in al circumstances.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

I think you could get Ego+20 type effects with Interaction skills' date=' you just can't do them as quickly or reliably as with Mind Control (As a half phase attack action) and possibly without the character knowing you even did it. Convince someone of a patent untruth that can't immediately verify or talk them into betraying soeone they're not particularly loyal too, stuff like that seems within the reach of interaction skills, but certainly not within a combat time frame at all and you could probably get away with more out of combat with Mind Control too.[/quote']

 

It's possible, but it requires a huge effort and you don't always get what you want even if you succeed. With a successful Mind Control you get what you want the way you want it (or fail to get anything).

[casualplayer]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

Problems that I see are people not designing their mentalists to take advantage of Multiple Power Attacks. You should have redundant MPs or have your Ego Attack outside of your MP so you can be blasting someone into unconsciousness while you are scouring or dominating someone else's mind. Also Sense EGO Discriminatory is points well spent to know who to focus on. These suggestions are probably in UltMent, or they should be.

 

Mind Control is Transform: Guy on their side to guy on my side. I don't think it is too weak for the effect.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

I lot of Mentalist frustration I've had in the past was from GMs that think everything worth doing is EGO+30. Mind Control command: tie your shoes! His shoe is actually untied, and he's somewhat of a neat freak, but he's in combat so he's violently opposed to do it.

 

Well, violently opposed to me means that if it wasn't a mind control command, and someone tried to force or corner the character into taking the action, he'd do something violent to avoid compliance as if his life depended on it.

 

For Telepathy, you don't need to hit the subconscious to find out what the villains are really here for; they're in the process of getting it and it's probably in their surface thoughts.

 

If you make a minor change using Mental Illusions, the target is guaranteed to notice it. He won't overlook it. He can't. And if the Illusion is somehow significant to the target, they're aren't going to ignore it.

 

The other thing I've found that shafts mentalists is the ill conceived command/question/illusion. Mind controlling the villains to fight each other is silly, not to mention difficult. Mind controlling the martial artist to accept a foolish challenge should be easy. An Illusion of extra heroes can be just as useful than making a villain look like one of the heroes, and is easier. And when was the last time you saw a hero force a Telepathic conversation with the villain? In the heat of battle, having a guy who isn't even in direct conflict with you taunt you and tease you can be distracting... not to mention it immediately lets a villain with a fear of mentalists know he's under attack, triggering whatever Psych Limit he may have for it (or Enraged).

[Psylint]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

This is an unfair comparison. ....

 

By way of comparison, consider a 6d6 Mind Control, Cumulative, 4x Maximum. Target for an Ego +30 effect, with -6 to Breakout rolls. Assuming the target has 18 Ego, you need 78 points of effect. 6d6 will average 21 points per hit, so you need 4 hits to take control of the target. Considering you don't suffer from range modifiers and will likely attack a DCV well below your OCV, this seems like an equivalent time to not only remove a typical target (even one of above average Ego) from the combat, but to make him an asset to your side of the conflict.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use the limitation Target +30, with -6 Breakout, you get one heck of a limitation, and your 6d6 Mind Control will never cumulate. When you take that "must get x level" if the attack fails to reach that level it has "no effect" per the rules. As I understand it, this would prevent it from cumulating. Otherwise, the limitation wouldn't be any different from a normal attack that didn't meet it's intended level of effect, and thus not worth a limitation at all. If anything, it could be seen as an advantage given the nature of the Cumulative advantage and its effect on Breakout rolls.

 

Someone clarify for me please whether it would be possible for a 6d6 Mind Control with Cumulative x2, Telepathic (Active 60), to be Rapid Fired 3 times? If so, then I apologize, Mind Control + Cumulative + Rapid Fire is overpowered, even with Breakout rolls.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong' date=' but if you use the limitation Target +30, with -6 Breakout, you get one heck of a limitation, and your 6d6 Mind Control will never cumulate.[/quote']

 

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I am suggesting you buy 6d6 Mind Control, Cumulative, 4x maximum for 60 points. You then declare your target level as Ego +30 with -6 to the breakout roll - you could select a lesser effect level, if you wished.

 

For the same 60 points, you could have:

 

- 6d6 Mind Control, Cumulative, 2x maximum, telepathic command, but this would restrict that level of effect to targets with 12 or less Ego

 

- 5d6 Mind Control, Cumulative, 4x maximum, telepathic command (56 points, actually), which would reduce your average roll to 17.5, and mean it will average 5 hits (just under 4.5, but you can't get half a hit) to accumulate 78 points.

 

Someone clarify for me please whether it would be possible for a 6d6 Mind Control with Cumulative x2' date=' Telepathic (Active 60), to be Rapid Fired 3 times? If so, then I apologize, Mind Control + Cumulative + Rapid Fire is overpowered, even with Breakout rolls.[/quote']

 

My example assumes the mentalist (and his opponent, I suppose) are not using rapid fire.

 

I don't believe Mind Control, or any other mental power, is different from any other attack power in respect of the Rapid Fire rules. Of course, the opponent could target your mentalist with his own attack using Rapid Fire. There is, IIRC, an older thread discussing how unbalanced Rapid Fire could be when using attacks which don't target ordinary DCV, such that the -2 per extra shot penalty is less likely to result in a miss.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

Thank you me lord,

 

You can do Haymakers with Mental Powers? Never would've thought of that. The only thing I did think of was:

 

Change Environment 8" Radius, -4 to Breakout rolls (Active Cost 29)

 

or

 

- 4 to Breakout rolls (Negative Skill Levels), 0 End + 1/2, AoE Radius 8" +1 1/2, Personal Immunity + 1/4 (Active Cost 39) [subject to GM approval for negative skill levels]

 

But it seems unfair to require a 30 or 40 pt power to make a 60 pt, slightly less likely to be negated.

 

Your house rule is better, postponing breakout until the following phase, then again "turn off your forcefield and shoot yourself in the head" is kinda harsh.

 

I'd rather do an Entangle kind of mechanic:

Roll dice for effect, subject the requirement for the level e.g. a 12d6 mind control attempting "commit suicide" command on an Ego 10 Joe Normal, effect roll is 52.

Subtract level of effect (Ego 10 +30) leaves 12 points

The mechanic is a "Mind control" entangle of 2 Body per 5 points" yields a 4 Body "mind control entangle"

On Joe Normal's first Phase after the attack he can attempt to use his Ego to break the entangle, if he breaks it, but by less than twice, he loses his Phase breaking the mental control, if he breaks it by twice or more, he has his whole phase.

The mentalist can reinforce the entangle by attacking again and contributing the number of body indicated as if it were a new entangle.

If the conditions change such that the command would require a higher level of effect, the target gets 2d6 worth of Ego for free to represent the additional level of effect need.

 

Something like that.

I haven't read through all the pages yet but let me say that like LL I also don't allow a breakout until after a phase of effect, and I think this has worked fine. I think it's a fairly common house rule.

 

As to "shoot yourself in the head," characters are so violently opposed to that it should be hard to do, anyway, against the kinds of threats a PC would go that far with, but more importantly why would a "superhero" make this kind of command against at least most ordinary threats? Anyway, the "go to sleep" and absolute "win now" commands really are normally hard to pull off given the +30 required, and as GM you can always boost that if it's that extreme a command and a potential problem in your campaign.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

Psylint, I would really reinforce what a couple people said throughout this thread - you don't want to OR NEED TO (normally) shoot for big EGO+30 mind-benders with MC. The trick is really finding less extreme commands that work well among your team and/or exploit villains' weaknesses, at least when we're talking about major villain threats - and (IMHO anyway) this is very much like most mind control in fiction against big threats.

 

Now, yes, for more mundane opponents the bigger commands should be more viable, and it can seem daunting to make a "mere mediocre human character" shoot himself, and perhaps you could say it's too hard to do. But I think that with agents and such there's so many reasonable commands that such beings wouldn't be so opposed to that can effectively remove them from combat that it's still a viable power.

 

There's also a balancing act here. If a mentalist can easily fire off +20/+30 level commands, he becomes a one-punch artist - something HERO is really not geared for. The mentalist will quickly eclipse the other characters, KOing opponents in a single phase whereas it's a lot more common for 2-3 punches (at least) for an "equal" opponent to go down, more for superior forces.

[Psylint]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

I concede.

 

There is some value to Mind Control over skills, i.e. influence over control, but I'm not sure that the cost and risk of breakout is worth the rather hefty investment in points and endurance.

 

It appears the "mind controllers" of the future will have to use power frameworks, using Mind Control for minor to middling effects and Transform for larger and longer term effects.

 

Though as far as the "one-punch" thing, how many times was a mentalist up and around after being punched by a brick?

 

And the "but a Super at 250, doesn't increase mental defense nearly as much as physical defense at 350" seems like a false argument to me. I mean the converse, "But my mentalist doesn't have the rpd of a Brick" wouldn't really convince anyone to change the mechanic of Strength, so....

 

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's response. It has helped me find new ways to make mental powers more effective that I wouldn't have thought of on my own. Alas, I still see the Mental Transform as a better, more cost effective "mind control" than mind control, but them's the breaks.

 

Cheers!

[zornwil]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

I concede.

 

There is some value to Mind Control over skills, i.e. influence over control, but I'm not sure that the cost and risk of breakout is worth the rather hefty investment in points and endurance.

 

It appears the "mind controllers" of the future will have to use power frameworks, using Mind Control for minor to middling effects and Transform for larger and longer term effects.

 

Though as far as the "one-punch" thing, how many times was a mentalist up and around after being punched by a brick?

 

And the "but a Super at 250, doesn't increase mental defense nearly as much as physical defense at 350" seems like a false argument to me. I mean the converse, "But my mentalist doesn't have the rpd of a Brick" wouldn't really convince anyone to change the mechanic of Strength, so....

 

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's response. It has helped me find new ways to make mental powers more effective that I wouldn't have thought of on my own. Alas, I still see the Mental Transform as a better, more cost effective "mind control" than mind control, but them's the breaks.

 

Cheers!

Re the one-punch thing, I'd have to turn that around though - how many times has a brick been able to act independently after a mind control by a mentalist? Obviously, YMMV, but a brick (or even an EBer if he's just the physical type, from what I've seen) hit by a mentalist is usually just as squishy as the mentalist is to the brick. Both tend to try hard to avoid each other if they can.

 

I agree that Mental Transform seems a much easier way to do the more truly dominant mind tricks than Mind Control. And as you suggest, it's a tricky line since we see Transform used to change minds in a manner similar to Mind Control, so I don't believe the powers have a well-defined boundary at all. Good point.

 

I do think though that Mind Control may not be less efficient if we look at the mentalist with a suite of mental powers and thus a strong EGO and EOCV/EDCV, as the mentalist can be much more successful at hitting the non-mentalist generally whereas the transform type either has to convert his power to using EGO or has to deal with the fact that he has to deal with the more conventionally high OCV/DCV values. Not sure how much the trade-off is in effect, though, hadn't really thought about it.

 

Just to come back to it, I'm not suggesting you don't raise a good discussion here. You are by no means the only person to have issues with how mentalist builds often work out in HERO games, and as stated earlier I agree that immediate breakout without a phase of actually power effect is a raw deal.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use the limitation Target +30, with -6 Breakout, you get one heck of a limitation, and your 6d6 Mind Control will never cumulate. When you take that "must get x level" if the attack fails to reach that level it has "no effect" per the rules. As I understand it, this would prevent it from cumulating. Otherwise, the limitation wouldn't be any different from a normal attack that didn't meet it's intended level of effect, and thus not worth a limitation at all. If anything, it could be seen as an advantage given the nature of the Cumulative advantage and its effect on Breakout rolls.

 

Someone clarify for me please whether it would be possible for a 6d6 Mind Control with Cumulative x2, Telepathic (Active 60), to be Rapid Fired 3 times? If so, then I apologize, Mind Control + Cumulative + Rapid Fire is overpowered, even with Breakout rolls.

 

I think there's a misunderstanding here.

 

When you choose "Must reach X Level" and "Cumulative" you keep making attack rolls until that level is reached - nothing happens until that point at all except that you're spending Phases using Attack Actions. With Cumulative you can multiple Attacks to reach the Level set.

 

FREX: 6D6, Cumulative x2 and you declare EGO+20, -4 To Break Out Roll.

(The maximum you can ever get with this construct is 72 points worth of Mind Control Effect.)

 

The GM looks at the target and finds they have an EGO of 12. So you need to reach 12 + 20 + (4x5) = 52 on your Mind Control before anything happens.

 

Your first Attack you roll at total of 17. Nothing happens.

Your second attack you roll a total of 26, now your Cumulative is 17 + 26 = 43.

Your third attack needs to be a 9 or less on six dice. You've got a pretty good shot of acheiving you stated goal.

[Psylint]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

Re the one-punch thing, I'd have to turn that around though - how many times has a brick been able to act independently after a mind control by a mentalist? Obviously, YMMV, but a brick (or even an EBer if he's just the physical type, from what I've seen) hit by a mentalist is usually just as squishy as the mentalist is to the brick. Both tend to try hard to avoid each other if they can.

 

I agree that Mental Transform seems a much easier way to do the more truly dominant mind tricks than Mind Control. And as you suggest, it's a tricky line since we see Transform used to change minds in a manner similar to Mind Control, so I don't believe the powers have a well-defined boundary at all. Good point.

 

I do think though that Mind Control may not be less efficient if we look at the mentalist with a suite of mental powers and thus a strong EGO and EOCV/EDCV, as the mentalist can be much more successful at hitting the non-mentalist generally whereas the transform type either has to convert his power to using EGO or has to deal with the fact that he has to deal with the more conventionally high OCV/DCV values. Not sure how much the trade-off is in effect, though, hadn't really thought about it.

 

Just to come back to it, I'm not suggesting you don't raise a good discussion here. You are by no means the only person to have issues with how mentalist builds often work out in HERO games, and as stated earlier I agree that immediate breakout without a phase of actually power effect is a raw deal.

 

Two bits

1. To be honest, I haven't used the new rules relative to the mental powers, but in the 12d6, 14d6 level straight up range, I'd have to go with more often than not (11- Breakout roll is still 62%). On the other hand, all of my mentalist who've been punched by bricks were out for the duration, and several unlucky ones were bleeding to death.

 

2. ECV v. DCV is not as big an advantage as it may appear. If you go with the Transform route, you can take all those points from Ego (generally around 20 or so) and put them into DEX and Skill levels which makes you generally more effective (going first, perhaps higher speed, better DCV vrs. the majority of attacks in the game). Also remember that even 10 pts. of Mental Defense makes it really, really hard to get a mental effect (a bargain at 7 pts). If the CV cap is 10, most folks hover around 7, specialist s are at 10, ECV's are generally 3-4, with the odd 5 from a martial artist, and mentalists ECV's are generally 6-8. With no range modifiers the investment in a +7 CV is really not worth it. Besides the mentalists troubles are not that they can't hit anything, it's that when they do hit something it often doesn't do them a lot of good.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental, the short stick?

 

I'm not using any new rules for mental powers, either, Psylint.

 

You keep talking about 11- breakout - I don't understand this. At -1 per 5 AP for breakout, most people should be well under 11-, unless they are EGO-centered characters, in which case they SHOULD be having a decent chance.

 

Obviously, experiences vary, but IMX mind control has simply been a lot easier for people to be effective with than transforms - and I run my campaigns with much more liberal rules on adjustment powers than the book!

 

PS - I guess I was just realizing something else I probably don't understand - why is this such an issue given that you (the GM) designs the villains? Aren't the villains designed so that the mentalist has some targets who won't just breakout? I know I do.