New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

The LTE rules are unclear whether the character can simply spend only 1 END in one phase every minute' date=' say, to reduce his average. That wouldn't add too much time to Joe Average's marathon.[/quote']

 

 

A literal reading of the rules suggests that if the GM invokes the LTE rules, then if in any 1 Turn he spends half his REC in END he invokes the LTE loss.

 

Since the LTE loss for that level of activity is 1/five minutes, I'd interpret that to mean that Joe would have to go five straight minutes of *not* spending 2 END in a Turn to avoid the LTE loss for that interval.

 

Under those rules, Joe may as well just run full out for 75 minutes, and thereafter run 1 Phase a Turn. Using Joe Average's actual noncombat Running speed of 10" (5ER 345), I calculate him taking about 5.65 hours to finish. Since marathon courses often shut down at the 6 hour mark, that's a fairly unimpressive pace.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

"In non-combat situations, everyone is assumed to act at SPD 2 at all times, unless the circumstances require them to use their full SPDs." -- 5RE, p 357.

 

To those I would say that you might benefit from reading the section on "Non-Combat Time" on p 348 of 5RE. Every second of a PC's life isn't spent in Combat Time.

 

That seems to render many of the concerns irrelevant, although I can certainly see arguments over when cirumstances require use of full Speeds. For example, p 348 refers to switching to combat time for a car chase. This could reasonably be extrapolated to a chase on foot, and from there to a race, whether a 100 yard dash or a marathon.

 

A literal reading of the rules suggests that if the GM invokes the LTE rules, then if in any 1 Turn he spends half his REC in END he invokes the LTE loss.

 

Since the LTE loss for that level of activity is 1/five minutes, I'd interpret that to mean that Joe would have to go five straight minutes of *not* spending 2 END in a Turn to avoid the LTE loss for that interval.

 

I can read it that way, but I don't believe it's the only rational interpretation, or even the most logical. It would extend the LTE rules well beyond periods of sustained physical activity if taken literally, since most characters in combat spend more than their REC in a typical turn, much less half their REC.

 

I'm curious as to the official stance, so I've posted the question on the Rules Q forum.

 

Under those rules' date=' Joe may as well just run full out for 75 minutes, and thereafter run 1 Phase a Turn. Using Joe Average's actual noncombat Running speed of 10" (5ER 345), I calculate him taking about 5.65 hours to finish. Since marathon courses often shut down at the 6 hour mark, that's a fairly unimpressive pace.[/quote']

 

The reduced running rate helps the situation somewhat for Joe Normal. That was a suggestion offered earlier as well. It does little for any heroic character, however, who likely has at least a 5 REC and can sustain a 6" run at 2 SPD indefinitely.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

ACtually' date=' Joe Average CAN'T run a 3 hour marathon because the long term END rules(which I've never seen anyone use) would prevent him from finishing the race. According to the long term END rules, if your END used/REC = 1(which is what it is for Joe Average), then you burn 1 END per minute[/quote']

 

He burns 1 END per phase = 2 per turn. Noncombat multiples don't multiply END usage.

 

All in all, this is one of those things I'm prepared to live with.

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But really, I just think that it's more trouble than it's worth to go to the hassle of converting the whole thing over since as various people have pointed out, you would have to decouple ALL of the movement powers, reassign their point values, devlop new rules for turning and for any combat maneuver that had a velocity or FMove element like move by, move through, or flying dodge. That's a LOT of work just to bring running speeds into line when most people don't know how fast they're actually going anyway.

 

I'm inclined to agree it's not worth the hassle. While the "run a marathon" results may be irrational, running a marathon isn't exactly a typical game event. Invoking the "2 SPD in noncombat time" rule will slow down those noncombat speeds considerably.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

That was quick.

 

If a character uses END in varying amounts from Turn to Turn over a period of time' date=' typically Long-Term END loss is calculated using the largest amount of END he spends in any given Turn. For example, if a character has REC 4 and over the course of a minute uses 6, 8, 2, 1, and 4 END in each of the Turns, his (END in Turn/REC) equals 2 (8/4), so he loses 1 LTE per Turn. However, the GM may adjust this as he sees fit; for instance, in some cases the GM may average the amount of END spent per Turn to make the LTE calculation.[/quote']

 

While I don't agree with Steve's logic, that's the official rule.

 

EDIT: OK, maybe it's not the official rule. I eagerly await the promised Heroglyphs article.

[SteveZilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

That seems to render many of the concerns irrelevant' date=' although I can certainly see arguments over when circumstances require use of full Speeds. For example, p 348 refers to switching to combat time for a car chase. This could reasonably be extrapolated to a chase on foot, and from there to a race, whether a 100 yard dash or a marathon.[/quote']

 

And from there getting to work on time in rush hour, and getting home to watch one's favorite TV show. I could probably go on...

 

"Unless it looks like there's going to be a fight (or some other sequence you need to detail precisely, like a car chase), you don't have to be exact about things like time or distance." - 5RE, p 348.

 

I don't think it is reasonable to extend the description of "chase" to "race". In a race, you're not pursuing, fleeing, tracking, or tailing someone.

 

Like many things in a campaign, the GM controls when Combat Time is used, and when it's not. Kinda makes buying extra Non-Combat Multiples or Megascale on one's movement more attractive, doesn't it?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Like many things in a campaign' date=' the GM controls when Combat Time is used, and when it's not. Kinda makes buying extra Non-Combat Multiples or Megascale on one's movement more attractive, doesn't it? [/quote']

Maybe not. If I have a 5 SPD and 6" Running, I'm running 6"x5= 30" per turn Combat Speed, but if I switch to Non-Combat, I'm going 12"x2= 24" per turn.

 

I guess non-Combat movement is just a way to save END, rather than a way to move faster. (Unless you increase the multiple.)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

If a character uses END in varying amounts from Turn to Turn over a period of time' date=' typically Long-Term END loss is calculated using the largest amount of END he spends in any given Turn. For example, if a character has REC 4 and over the course of a minute uses 6, 8, 2, 1, and 4 END in each of the Turns, his (END in Turn/REC) equals 2 (8/4), so he loses 1 LTE per Turn. However, the GM may adjust this as he sees fit; for instance, in some cases the GM may average the amount of END spent per Turn to make the LTE calculation.[/quote']

That is a little wierd. He loses 1 LTE even on the turn where he only spent 1 END?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

"Unless it looks like there's going to be a fight (or some other sequence you need to detail precisely, like a car chase), you don't have to be exact about things like time or distance." - 5RE, p 348.

 

I don't think it is reasonable to extend the description of "chase" to "race". In a race, you're not pursuing, fleeing, tracking, or tailing someone.

 

I suspect olympic marathoners will suggest that the detail of who comes in first better be precise, meaning time and distance should be measured more exactly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

That is a little wierd. He loses 1 LTE even on the turn where he only spent 1 END?

 

In reviewing your questions' date=' I realized that because they’re so rarely used, the LTE rules haven’t really been thoroughly explored and explained the way they ought to be. So if you don’t mind, I’m going to defer answering in favor of a HEROglyphs column on the subject, where I can delve into the matter thoroughly. Thanx for giving me such a great idea for a column! [/quote']

 

So I think that's not yet Steve's final answer.

[SteveZilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

I suspect Olympic marathoners will suggest that the detail of who comes in first better be precise' date=' meaning time and distance should be measured more exactly.[/quote']

 

How often does a GM run (pun intended ) an entire marathon in a game? I didn't say (or mean to imply, if I did) that a GM couldn't do this, just that the GM determines the "time scale" used for any scene in the game.

 

Also, Hero System is not The Ultimate Reality Toolkit. It may not model some things accurately, or with enough granularity to satisfy those who want it to be TURT. I haven't seen a RPG system that does a good (realistic) job of handling massed movement like a marathon, a bike race, or a car race. For example, I saw this problem firsthand at a convention. Someone was using Car Wars for a Grand Prix race. Real life is not divided into Turns and Phases -- it happens millisecond by millisecond, and to all the participants at the same time.

[Astragaal]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Has inches/segment dissapeared as a mechanic?

 

Cant remember if 4th used it, but Danger international, Justice Inc and other original used it for vechiles.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

How often does a GM run (pun intended ) an entire marathon in a game? I didn't say (or mean to imply' date=' if I did) that a GM [i']couldn't[/i] do this, just that the GM determines the "time scale" used for any scene in the game.

 

Also, Hero System is not The Ultimate Reality Toolkit. It may not model some things accurately, or with enough granularity to satisfy those who want it to be TURT. I haven't seen a RPG system that does a good (realistic) job of handling massed movement like a marathon, a bike race, or a car race. For example, I saw this problem firsthand at a convention. Someone was using Car Wars for a Grand Prix race. Real life is not divided into Turns and Phases -- it happens millisecond by millisecond, and to all the participants at the same time.

 

Actually, a game that centered around such races would presumably have enough granularity to make minor differences matter. As you say, how often does one run a footrace of any sort? Not very often! Given that, there isn't a crying need for rules that can address all the subtleties and variances in characters' abilities to run such a footrace,

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Has inches/segment dissapeared as a mechanic?

 

Cant remember if 4th used it, but Danger international, Justice Inc and other original used it for vechiles.

 

It's still used in falling, but not anywhere else.

[Mike W]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

He burns 1 END per phase = 2 per turn. Noncombat multiples don't multiply END usage.

 

 

 

I'm inclined to agree it's not worth the hassle. While the "run a marathon" results may be irrational, running a marathon isn't exactly a typical game event. Invoking the "2 SPD in noncombat time" rule will slow down those noncombat speeds considerably.

 

I don't see why the non-combat multiplier wouldn't apply when you're using it,. Is there anyplace it specifically says this? In comjbat, you aren't paying the END for the non-combat movement because you aren't using it. But if you aren't in combat you ARE using the movement, so why wouldn't you pay END for it?

[SteveZilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

I don't see why the non-combat multiplier wouldn't apply when you're using it' date='. Is there anyplace it specifically says this? In comjbat, you aren't paying the END for the non-combat movement because you aren't using it. But if you aren't in combat you ARE using the movement, so why wouldn't you pay END for it?[/quote']

 

5RE, p 123. Under "Endurance". I guess because NCMs, despite being like Adders, are an exception?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

I don't see why the non-combat multiplier wouldn't apply when you're using it' date='. Is there anyplace it specifically says this? In comjbat, you aren't paying the END for the non-combat movement because you aren't using it. But if you aren't in combat you ARE using the movement, so why wouldn't you pay END for it?[/quote']

 

Bless that 5er index, Steve Long! I pretty much always find the answer in a minute or two.

 

Unless otherwise noted in a Movement Power's description, all movement powers cost END at the rate of 1 END per 10 active points in the Movement Power.

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If a character moves at Noncombat velocites, the END cost equals the END he uses to move at Combat velocities - a character with Flight 15" (30 Active Points) and a x8 Noncombat Movement multiple (total of Flight 120") only spends 3 END per Phase.

 

I blanked out some material on free running, leaping, etc. also counting for deternining END.

 

Really, how could anyone use high noncombat velocities if a 32x multiple for that character above (480" per phase) meant spending 96 END per phase?

[SteveZilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Really' date=' how could anyone use high noncombat velocities if a 32x multiple for that character above (480" per phase) meant spending 96 END per phase?[/quote']

 

Fuel Charges?

 

Seriously though, I think some of the misconception was that the NCMs would add their Active Points to the Active Points of the movement power being used to determine the END Cost. Like 10" Flight, x32 NCM (40 Active Points -- the first x2 is free) feels like it would cost 4 END to use all 40 APs.

 

But as shown in two different places in 5RE, the NCMs themselves cost no END to use. It just takes a while to get up to full NCM velocity (and the same to stop ).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

You guys haven't checked the errata for 5er

 

I asked Steve L. about this a while back:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29753

 

Hi Steve,

 

The previous poster raised a serious question. I read all the related 5ER pages that you mentioned and I can't figure out which example has precedence. Unless I am completely missing some key piece of information or haven't had enough caffeine, one of the examples is giving the incorrect END cost but I can't figure out which one.

 

Given that the following 15"/x8NCM/3 END example build is also used on page 364:

Quote:

On p123, under Endurance, it's noted that a character with 15" of Flight and a x8 NCM would pay 3 END per phase.

 

1. Are these examples actually wrong? Should the character be paying 4 End per phase?

2. Would a more specific example with included active points help? If I have a character with Flight 20" [40 active] with a x32 Non-Combat Multiple [+20 active for a total of 60 active] Does it cost 4 or 6 End per phase to use at combat or non-combat speeds?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

HM

 

Steve L. replied:

It's just an errata. It should be 4 END per Phase due to the Active Point cost of 40.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

HM's comment still moves us to the same 4 END regardless of whether the character is moving 15" in combat, or 120" in noncombat. The only clarification is that the adder does, in fact, cost END based on its own AP (not the movement speed) regardless of whether it is being used or not.

[SteveZilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

It hasn't been put into the 5th Ed errata for some reason.

 

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/errata5ER.htm

 

HM, what examples were you referencing in your question to Steve Long? I can't find any place in 5RE that directly contradicts the "NCMs don't cost END".

[SteveZilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

After a quick search using "NCM END", I found this question/answer:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29740&highlight=NCM+END

 

Which means that in 5th ed (revised), NCMs are adders and follow all adders rules. I.e., they add their Active Point cost to the END cost of using the power regardless of they're being used or not. Movement Powers with extra NCMs in a Multipower Flexible Slot don't require reserve points if not being used, but still increases the END cost of the power.

 

Which I think means that a character with 20" Flight x128 NCM has to spend 3 END just to hover. IMO it may be better to buy some Scaleable Megascale as a Naked Advantage instead of buying NCMs.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

After a quick search using "NCM END", I found this question/answer:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29740&highlight=NCM+END

 

Which means that in 5th ed (revised), NCMs are adders and follow all adders rules. I.e., they add their Active Point cost to the END cost of using the power regardless of they're being used or not. Movement Powers with extra NCMs in a Multipower Flexible Slot don't require reserve points if not being used, but still increases the END cost of the power.

 

Which I think means that a character with 20" Flight x128 NCM has to spend 3 END just to hover. IMO it may be better to buy some Scaleable Megascale as a Naked Advantage instead of buying NCMs.

 

This is how I've approached it in the past (notes assume a SPD 6 character)

 

60 Flight Multipower: 60-point reserve

6u 1) Trick Flight: Flight 15", Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/4), IPE Hearing (+1/4), MegaScale 1" = 1 or 10 km (+1/4 or +1/2), No Turn Mode (+1/4), Reduced End (+1/4 or +1/2), Sideways Maneuverability Half Or Full Velocity (+1/4 or +1/2), Usable By Other (+1/4), Usable As Gliding, Running or Swimmng (+1/4).; +1) [Notes: Combat Velocity ~34 mph (VF=5). MegaScale Minimum Velocity = 500" (~1125 mph, VF=16), Absolute Maximum = 75,000" (~168,750 MPH, ~Mach 225, ~94 Miles/phase)(@6 End/phase for about 1 minute), No Turn Mode Sustainable Maximum ~Mach 8, Absolute Sustainable Maximum ~Mach 75 (@2 End/phase could circle the Equator in < 10 minutes).] - END=6

6u 2) Combat Flight: Flight 20", x32 Noncombat [Notes: Combat Velocity of ~45 mph (VF=6), Non-Combat Velocity of ~1440 mph (VF=16): Bridges gap between Trick Flight's Combat maximum and Megascale minimum. Move By Damage is STR/2 + (VF)d6. Move Through OCV penalty is -(VF) and Damage is STR + (VF)d6. The Velocity Factor value (5ER pg 436) is equal to the (relative) Velocity Based DCV value (5ER page 364).] - END=6

[Mike W]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

5RE' date=' p 123. Under "Endurance". I guess because NCMs, despite being like Adders, are an exception?[/quote']

 

OK, I can see that. And the high level NCMs would get hard to use. I guess that's what I get for trying to do this stuff very late at night(and often with a couple adult beverages in me)

 

Still though, I think that if we get back to the original idea of the thread, we ultimately find that while HERO(as is not uncommon) does not model "normal" people very well because it gives them too much credit, the PCs(at any level of play) and their opposition, are sufficiently beyond them to make it irrelevant.

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

After a quick search using "NCM END", I found this question/answer:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29740&highlight=NCM+END

 

Which means that in 5th ed (revised), NCMs are adders and follow all adders rules. I.e., they add their Active Point cost to the END cost of using the power regardless of they're being used or not. Movement Powers with extra NCMs in a Multipower Flexible Slot don't require reserve points if not being used, but still increases the END cost of the power.

 

Which I think means that a character with 20" Flight x128 NCM has to spend 3 END just to hover. IMO it may be better to buy some Scaleable Megascale as a Naked Advantage instead of buying NCMs.

 

I've never liked that rule. If you have an EB 10d6, and only use 8d6 of it, you only spend 4 END, not 5. but if I have Flight 20" with a x8 NCM, I do have to pay 5 END if I'm only using the 20" in combat. House rule time!

[SteveZilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

I've never liked that rule. If you have an EB 10d6' date=' and only use 8d6 of it, you only spend 4 END, not 5. but if I have Flight 20" with a x8 NCM, I [i']do[/i] have to pay 5 END if I'm only using the 20" in combat. House rule time!

 

Me too. Though that makes NCMs different from other adders, which always add to the END cost (like Force Field with the Protects Carried Items adder).

 

Will your house rule be that NCMs (and maybe all adders) only cost END when actually being used, or go back to 4th ed.'s NCMs don't cost END at all?