New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

[Erkenfresh]

I've been thinking about how odd it is that SPD affects not only the number of actions one can take in a Phase but also how far they can run. For example:

 

Character A: 2 SPD, 10" Running (40 points, 20" per Phase)

Character B: 3 SPD, 7" Running (44 points, 21" per Phase)

 

OK, so B has spent 4 more points in total but with the much added bonus of having that extra speed. It's like character B bought 1 more SPD for just 4 points, not to mention he can cover 1" more of ground per Phase.

 

What if instead of costing 2 points per 1" of Running, it cost SPD points per 1" of Running. In that case, character A would spend the normal 2 points per inch and character B would be spending 3 points per inch. So now you have:

 

Character A: 2 SPD, 10" Running (40 points, 20" per Phase)

Character B: 3 SPD, 7" Running (51 points, 21" per Phase)

 

So now, the difference in costs is closer to where it should be, with character B getting +1 SPD and +1" Running (for the entire Phase) for 11 points.

 

Most of the time, this isn't a problem but it might get confusing if the SPD of the character changes, either through an Aid, a Drain, or by spending points to increase it. In this case, a simple conversion can adjust Running to the correct value. For example, getting drained from 3 SPD to 2 SPD should increase Running by 50%. For purposes of buying up to a new SPD, the character should sell off all Running at the old cost and buy it back up at the new cost (and I guess keep the leftover points unspent).

 

I'm only mulling this over because I might want to make detailed vehicle rules and "top speed" should be something that isn't necessarily affected by SPD (which more closely represents the handling of the vehicle). So, popping that nitro should have about the same affect on a SPD 4 car as a SPD 2 car as far as increasing it's top speed, rather than having double effect on the SPD 4 car.

 

Any input is appreciated!

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

One thing I've seen is having Running cost 1 point for 1" per Turn rather than 2 points for 1" per Phase. Base running would be 12" per Turn. There's variants of this out on the web in various places.

[Just Joe]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

For a related discussion, you might want to look here:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47168

 

You will get the most out of it if you skip over everyone else and just read my posts in the thread.

 

Note that your suggestion, if I read it right, requires a 2 speed, 6" per phase runner to spend 12 points on running (and 20 on speed?). This will imply a change in the power-level of a given point-level of characters.

 

This is a subject that interests me considerably, and I have been thinking more recently about the thread linked above, but nevertheless, I'm going to try not to get drawn in any more to this discussion, as I'm trying to make more time for design work. So please forgive me if I do not reply again (or do so only very belatedly).

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

One idea I've toyed with in the past, well thought about toying with anyway, was to alter the non-combat movement rules. Movement costs what it costs now, and there are no changes in how combat movement works. That's primarily what you're paying for anyway. But non-combat, instead of being a double of your combat movement, is calculated from you combat movement to turn based movement. My first thought was just to have a simple conversion of inches per segment is non-combat, but that allows a normal human to have 72" of running per turn, which is to damn fast. Then I was thinking of something like base of combat movement x 4 for movement per Turn. That makes a normal human equal to what he would be under the normal rules. But that screws up any character with a SPD of 8+, whose combat movement would then be equal to or greater than than his non-combat, which is just wrong. I've tried to find a happy medium, but I only find frustrated and angry mediums. The closest I've got to is that your non-combat is equal to 4x combat movement per Turn or inches xSPD per turn, which ever is greater, but that tends to shaft the high speed characters. In either case, I would divide inches per turn by 12 and have that be inches per segment, which a character can use if he wanted to move non-combat in combat.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

One thing I've seen is having Running cost 1 point for 1" per Turn rather than 2 points for 1" per Phase. Base running would be 12" per Turn. There's variants of this out on the web in various places.

 

Yes, that's another way of putting the idea. I suppose Drains or Aids to Running would then be expressed in terms of movement per turn instead of per segment, then let the players do the rest of the math.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

One idea I've toyed with in the past' date=' well thought about toying with anyway, was to alter the non-combat movement rules. Movement costs what it costs now, and there are no changes in how combat movement works. That's primarily what you're paying for anyway. But non-combat, instead of being a double of your combat movement, is calculated from you combat movement to turn based movement. My first thought was just to have a simple conversion of inches per segment is non-combat, but that allows a normal human to have 72" of running per turn, which is to damn fast. Then I was thinking of something like base of combat movement x 4 for movement per Turn. That makes a normal human equal to what he would be under the normal rules. But that screws up any character with a SPD of 8+, whose combat movement would then be equal to or greater than than his non-combat, which is just wrong. I've tried to find a happy medium, but I only find frustrated and angry mediums. The closest I've got to is that your non-combat is equal to 4x combat movement per Turn or inches xSPD per turn, which ever is greater, but that tends to shaft the high speed characters. In either case, I would divide inches per turn by 12 and have that be inches per segment, which a character can use if he wanted to move non-combat in combat.[/quote']

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the non-combat movement rules in the RAW. Unless you're talking about how SPD has such a high factor in the top speed of the vehicle outside of combat (which doesn't seem to make much sense).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

...then let the players do the rest of the math.

 

But that's the real rub. As if HERO math weren't complicated enough (never thought I'd say that!).

 

When using this option players would then need to buy movement rates easily divisible by 12 to then be able to figure out any movement based DC bonuses.

 

Unless most of the gaming group are detail junkies (can you say Starfleet Battles-HERO?) I don't see the roleplaying benefit of such a change.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

The benefit is simply balance. When you buy SPD you get a significant increase to movement, which should really be bought up with more Running.

 

Items like Turbochargers for a car that give an Aid or Succor to Running shouldn't give bigger boosts to cars with more SPD right? I think +10" of Running should affect a SPD 2 car and a SPD 4 car equally. Using the mechanic devised here, the Aid would be defined as adding "20 points" of Running or in other words "20" of Running per Turn" to be divided out amongst the Phases the character or vehicle takes.

 

Anyhow, not really a big deal. As far as vehicles are concerned, it's a cost issue for my campaign idea where the heroes probably won't pay points (just dollars) for their vehicles. So, it's just a matter of using the right amount of points to determine how much the vehicle costs is money.

[Mike W]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Well, I don't like the idea of Running only costing 1 point per inch because Running has the added benefit of no turn mode. It's much more power than leaping, which costs only 1 point per inch. The main advantage leaping has is that you can actually bypass things in between. But Running's no turn mode more than makes up for it. Plus you don't have to make a hit roll to end up where you want.

 

I think this is one of those things where you just have to live with the results. Just like everyone gets a 10 STR even though I don't know that many people who could actually lift the 220 pounds a 10 STR lets you lift, so too with Running you can actually Run a bit faster than most people can.

 

I think the way to keep running speed down would be to crack down on the END expenditure vs. recovery. And start by totaling the inches of move before calculating END expenditure. So the average person moves 24 inches per turn non-combat. That costs 5 END, not 4. And the average person recovers 4 END per turn. So that means the average person can maintain top speed for 20 turns or about 3 1/2 minutes. After that they are dead tired and have to stop to rest. As someone who ran track in high school, that sounds about right to me. The general consensus on the track team was that the half mile(which ran around 2 minutes for the top people and 2 1/2 for the rest of us) was about as long as anyone could maintain anything resembling a dead sprint. That means that the average person has to run at about 80% of top speed to maintain it for an extended period, which is also about right from my experience. I won't claim it's a perfect system, but I think it's as good as we can get. And just about every game system I've ever seen has given the average person credit for being in a bit better physical shape than they really are, especially in modern America, so I'm used to living with that kind of problem. But really, it doesn't come up all THAT often anyway because no one in the game is completely average. Everyone buys up stats so that their Running, CON, SPD, and REC are above the norm, even in a 150 point Heroic game. You like being that little bit faster and the CON is a good way to help all those figured stats. And you always find a way to justify a 3 SPD, for combat if nothing else. So the average person may be slightly faster in the game than in real life, but the important characters are always faster than the average person, so in the end it doesn't matter much.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Well' date=' I don't like the idea of Running only costing 1 point per inch [/quote']

 

Point of fact: that would be one point per inch per Turn.

[Mike W]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Point of fact: that would be one point per inch per Turn.

 

Ok, I missed that. But it probably runs the risk of pushing the cost issue the other direction for supers an speedsters are expensive enough to build as it is. Let's say everyone gets 12" or running per turn. A good speedster has, bare minimum, 6 SPD and moves 20 inches per phase. Since that is almost always running, he now has to buy 120 inches of move; that's 108 points! Far too much.

 

It also means that other movement powers like Flight become so dirt cheap by comparison that they become bargain basement powers everyone will try to afford. Unless, of course you decouple ALL movement powers, which suddenly runs the risk of making your movement at least as expensive as your main attack, which it never was before(unless you were supposed to be so highly mobile, like a speedster, that your movement was an integral part of your attack).

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

I've always had a problem with spd generating the rate at which you run when it just represents the actions you can make during a given phase so for me I've always assumed if a character is in constant movement then he moves the given amount of Hexes per segement but they can only alter change of course on their phases. Thus the inches x 12 for everyone who says they're in constant motion works out more realistically and effectively. and by the way its easy to caculate mph that way every 1" is 4.5mph thus 10" would be 45mph amd so on.

 

I start on 12 to move 6" and I declare I'm not stopping then you would move 6" each segement until your phase that would allow you to stop or charge direction. this explains how people run into walls and other objects or people because they could not move on that phase. Dex rolls with mods can be substituted as an abort for purposes of changing direction out of phase.

[Mike Dean]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

For low level games (i.e. competent normal games), I've occasionally employed a house rule that points of SPD reduce the characteristic maxima of running. 10" for SPD 2, 8" for SPD 3, and 7" for SPD 4. That sets per-turn movement at 20", 24", and 28" respectively. Players who buy points of SPD can cash in their extra running for a price break. While not a problem-free mechanic ("So, now that I'm SPD 4 my Move Throughs hurt less?"), it does have the benefit of simplicity.

 

However, I generally don't worry about the relationship between SPD and running in higher level games, and definitely not in superhero games. After all, the entire aim of those games is to be much more capable than a normal person, usually far past the point of realism. SPD, combined with full access to movement, is an important factor in giving your accomplished vigilante the jump on the mook hordes.

 

Mike

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

It also means that other movement powers like Flight become so dirt cheap by comparison that they become bargain basement powers everyone will try to afford. Unless' date=' of course you decouple ALL movement powers, which suddenly runs the risk of making your movement at least as expensive as your main attack, which it never was before(unless you were supposed to be so highly mobile, like a speedster, that your movement was an integral part of your attack).[/quote']

 

I think this system only works if you decouple all movement powers from Speed, halving their cost and making them per turn, rather than per phase. And it would certainly reduce the average per phase movement speed for anyone with a SPD above 2, or alternatively increase the cost of higher movement speeds.

 

But that's the crux of the issue, isn't it? A 2 SPD character can run at 12" per phase (2x noncombat), which equates to 240 meters per minute, or 14.4 kph (just under 9 miles per hour), on a more or less indefinite basis. That makes Joe Average capable of running a marathon in just under 3 hours, and maintaining that pace more or less forever. That's already pretty fast, given the world record for the marathon [per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon] is just over 2 hours - a time that can be beaten by a 3 SPD character with otherwise standard stats.

 

Should a 6 SPD martial artist be capable of consistently halving the world record marathon time on a consistent basis? He probably has a 12 REC, so spending 6 END per turn is hardly a major issue.

 

Now, whether this glitch in the reality comparison makes changing the system worthwhile is another question entirely.

 

Movethroughs, movebys and similar attacks would presumably also require revision to be based on velocity per turn, such that a character with 12" running per turn adds the same 2d6 velocity damage previously added by moving at 6" per phase on Speed 2.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

An easy adjustment regarding 'normals' and movement:

 

If normals are assumed to have a base 8 in all primary characteristics instead of base 10 like PC's why not also give them a base 5" of Running as well?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

An easy adjustment regarding 'normals' and movement:

 

If normals are assumed to have a base 8 in all primary characteristics instead of base 10 like PC's why not also give them a base 5" of Running as well?

 

All PC's still meet or beat world marathon records, and a sustained running speed of 12 kph is a lot better than I could do!

[gojira]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Good thread.

 

I think I'm on the record as preferring to allow non-combat repeated actions, and a few combat repeated actions. OTOH, running itself can be simulated pretty well by just buying lots of non-combat running for people who should be fast sprinters. They'll loose their DCV, but that's a trade off for being able to use that extra speed. Movement in combat is something that I think should be different from raw sprinting speed.

 

Really, once you get over Speed 3, I think you are firmly in superhero territory and you can ignore realism. If a Speedster with Speed 6 and 10" of Running is way faster than an Olympic athlete, well that's how it should be.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

But that's the crux of the issue, isn't it? A 2 SPD character can run at 12" per phase (2x noncombat), which equates to 240 meters per minute, or 14.4 kph (just under 9 miles per hour), on a more or less indefinite basis. That makes Joe Average capable of running a marathon in just under 3 hours, and maintaining that pace more or less forever. That's already pretty fast, given the world record for the marathon [per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon] is just over 2 hours - a time that can be beaten by a 3 SPD character with otherwise standard stats.

 

A marathon seems like an appropriate situation for Long-Term Endurance, which means Joe Average (4 REC, 16 END) will have to pace himself to be able to finish at all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

A marathon seems like an appropriate situation for Long-Term Endurance' date=' which means Joe Average (4 REC, 16 END) will have to pace himself to be able to finish at all.[/quote']

 

Joe Normal is spending 1 END per phase to maintain his maximum 6" running speed, so 1/2 his REC. How much LTE does that burn per turn? IDHTBIFOM, but IIRC, that is 1 LTE per turn, so he can only keep up the pace for about three minutes. But +1 REC means he's golden and can maintain that pace indefinitely, IIRC.

 

EDIT: Home with the books now. Joe Normal is losing 1 LTE per five minutes, so he can keep up the pace for about 75 minutes. He's then down 15 LTE, so he can't spend 2 to run full out in both his phases. The LTE rules are unclear whether the character can simply spend only 1 END in one phase every minute, say, to reduce his average. That wouldn't add too much time to Joe Average's marathon.

[Just Joe]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Darn it, Hugh. I was attempting a quick lurk-through, but you sucked me in.

 

I think that running in-combat and out-of-combat should be thought of primarily in terms of sprinting. Trying to get the END and LTE rules to work for marathons is an admirable goal, but I think it is more important, and should be easier, to get reasonable sprinting rates.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Movethroughs' date=' movebys and similar attacks would presumably also require revision to be based on velocity per turn, such that a character with 12" running per turn adds the same 2d6 velocity damage previously added by moving at 6" per phase on Speed 2.[/quote']

This is the thing that bugs me most, especially with vehicles. I don't think I ever even noticed the problem until I read TUV. A car with 10" "Running" and 4 SPD is going just as fast as a car with 20" of "Running" and 2 SPD. All other things being equal, they ought to do the same damage running into someone (a Move-Thru). But the rules as-is say the 20"&2 SPD does more damage than 10"&4.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Something else about all this. If I present my players with several different engines they can buy for their cars, the normal rules would say to build it as "+X of Running". But this would mean the very same engine would be 50% faster in a SPD 3 car than a SPD 2. Let's take it a bit further shall we? A vehicle can decelerate at 5" per hex of movement, up to the combat running per Phase. Let's say vehicle A has 30" of Running and SPD 2 while vehicle B has 30" of Running and SPD 4. Both vehicles are going the full 4x non-combat velocity of 120" and the drivers of both cars decide to slam on the brakes to a dead stop at the same time. On Segment 12, both vehicles drop by 30" to 90" of velocity. Now, here's where it gets strange. On Segment 3, vehicle B will drop down to 60" while vehicle A remains at 90". Continuing this out, vehicle A will come to a stop one full turn after vehicle B does. Now, why should the SPD of the car affect how the brakes work? Maybe that's just what SPD is supposed to mean, but if that's true here's what you get for buying SPD for a vehicle:

 

1. Faster top speed

2. Faster acceleration

3. Faster deceleration

4. Better handling

5. More bonus from Aids to Running

6. More attacks/maneuvers per Turn

 

It seems like too much for just 10 points per SPD. Buying 1-5 from above without increasing SPD would cost well over 10 points to go from an effective SPD 2 to SPD 3, and that's without the bonus of #6.

 

Now, I can see arguments against all of this for a superhero campaign. You probably don't want to spend 120 points for your SPD 6 speedster to run 120" per Turn. It would make the rest of the character a bit point-strained. And superhero campaigns aren't exactly striving for realism.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

Darn it, Hugh. I was attempting a quick lurk-through, but you sucked me in.

 

I think that running in-combat and out-of-combat should be thought of primarily in terms of sprinting. Trying to get the END and LTE rules to work for marathons is an admirable goal, but I think it is more important, and should be easier, to get reasonable sprinting rates.

 

Funny...I always think of sprinters as Pushing their running somehow - how else can they be tired after "only" running 100 yards (about 50", which in Hero terms, Joe Six Pack can manage in a bit over 4 phases, so under 30 seconds, and be down less than half his END). Now maybe if we applied something similar to the LTE rules to reduce a character's ability to take recoveries...

[Mike W]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

I think this system only works if you decouple all movement powers from Speed, halving their cost and making them per turn, rather than per phase. And it would certainly reduce the average per phase movement speed for anyone with a SPD above 2, or alternatively increase the cost of higher movement speeds.

 

But that's the crux of the issue, isn't it? A 2 SPD character can run at 12" per phase (2x noncombat), which equates to 240 meters per minute, or 14.4 kph (just under 9 miles per hour), on a more or less indefinite basis. That makes Joe Average capable of running a marathon in just under 3 hours, and maintaining that pace more or less forever. That's already pretty fast, given the world record for the marathon [per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon] is just over 2 hours - a time that can be beaten by a 3 SPD character with otherwise standard stats.

 

Should a 6 SPD martial artist be capable of consistently halving the world record marathon time on a consistent basis? He probably has a 12 REC, so spending 6 END per turn is hardly a major issue.

 

Now, whether this glitch in the reality comparison makes changing the system worthwhile is another question entirely.

 

Movethroughs, movebys and similar attacks would presumably also require revision to be based on velocity per turn, such that a character with 12" running per turn adds the same 2d6 velocity damage previously added by moving at 6" per phase on Speed 2.

 

ACtually, Joe Average CAN'T run a 3 hour marathon because the long term END rules(which I've never seen anyone use) would prevent him from finishing the race. According to the long term END rules, if your END used/REC = 1(which is what it is for Joe Average), then you burn 1 END per minute - so Joe Average can maintain his top running speed of 24" per turn for 20 minutes. At 5 turns per minute, he's covering 240m per minute which, which means he runs about 3 miles in those 20 minutes. That's a bit fast for Joe Average but just about everyone on my high school cross country team could do it - even the freshman who would naturally be slower.

 

As far as sustained running speed goes, the average person at a brisk walk does 1 mile in 20 minutes and can probably keep it up for an hour or so. Anyone in good shape(say a high school athlete) can maintain 12kph - about 8 minute mile for about 3 miles. After that, it starts to drop off unless you're a runner. In high school, I could run 6 miles in about 40-45 minutes as an above average freshman distance runner. The top guys could do it in about 35 minutes.

 

All in all, this is one of those things I'm prepared to live with. I've never been crazy about the way running speeds convert for most characters when you start factoring in SPD and the fact that almost every character needs 12-15 inches of combat movement. I mean, the average super doesn't really need to be able to run 150 inches(non-combat) in a turn. That translates out to 1500m in one minute, which is basically 55mph. But really, I just think that it's more trouble than it's worth to go to the hassle of converting the whole thing over since as various people have pointed out, you would have to decouple ALL of the movement powers, reassign their point values, devlop new rules for turning and for any combat maneuver that had a velocity or FMove element like move by, move through, or flying dodge. That's a LOT of work just to bring running speeds into line when most people don't know how fast they're actually going anyway.

[SteveZilla]

Re: New Mechanic: Decoupling SPD from Running

 

"In non-combat situations, everyone is assumed to act at SPD 2 at all times, unless the circumstances require them to use their full SPDs." -- 5RE, p 357.

 

Though I'll bet that several people object strongly to this rule. They might claim that it shortchanges those who bought lots of SPD.

 

To those I would say that you might benefit from reading the section on "Non-Combat Time" on p 348 of 5RE. Every second of a PC's life isn't spent in Combat Time.