System cap on creativity

[Robyn]

From this post, I gather that experience with HERO's ruleset can limit us when it comes to envisioning effects which we know cannot be modelled with the (core) rules. How badly do you think the HERO system "locks out" legitimate ideas through its own imperfections?

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

Well give me an example of a legit concept that the rules knock down? Most of the time it's not the rules but the GM's the costumized/campaign rules that knock concept,

[Bloodstone]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

There are a few effects that are prohibitively expensive to do in HERO.

 

There are others that might be considered philosophically "inappropriate" based on some of the core assumptions of the game.

 

Some things are really, really complex to simulate.

 

But I don't think I've run into anything that I couldn't model at all yet...

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

There are a few effects that are prohibitively expensive to do in HERO.

 

There are others that might be considered philosophically "inappropriate" based on some of the core assumptions of the game.

 

Some things are really, really complex to simulate.

 

But I don't think I've run into anything that I couldn't model at all yet...

 

I agree - philosophical debate and going by the black and white of the mechanics anything can be built the amount it takes to do so is another story!

[Mike W]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

I think that, provided you have the points, you can do basically anything you want in HERO. The question is generally not whether you CAN do something(or allow it) but whether you SHOULD. This is both HERO's greatest strength and weakness as it requires the GM to keep a much tighter rein on things and can lead to disputes over how to best simulate something, to say nothing of whether or not a particular build is "legal" for the campaign. The fact that everything is so generic makes HERO very flexible, but it also makes it, ironically, more complicated and requires you to work much harder to figure out how to do something. Even something as simple as a "laser blast" has multiple builds(is it an EB or an RKA?). In most other systems, you have long lists of prewritten spells, equipment, and abilities that finely detail exactly what you can do. HERO has some examples, but by and large, the power list is infinitely long...and it's up to you to write it.

[schir1964]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

I've only found one group of concepts that the current rules do not allow and as far as I know, no GM has overruled, even on these boards.

 

Concept:

Character can shoot an ice blast (narrow beam) and a fire blast (narrow beam). Character aims at two different targets (one on the left at long range and one on the right at long range) simultaneously. Both targets are within range of the two attacks he possesses.

 

You can change the description of the powers in questions, but as long as the properties ot those attacks are the same and situation is the same, it is basically the same concept regardless of description. Two different attacks, two different targets, simultaneous attack.

 

This kind of thing happens in the source material, but the current rules do not allow for this kind of event. It allows for two attacks on the same target and allows for one attack against multiple targets.

 

Now you also claim that the system doesn't allow for Absolute Defense vs SFX, but then you have to define exactly what Absolute Defense actually means and if that definition can be achieved for a specific campaign.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

I've only found one group of concepts that the current rules do not allow and as far as I know, no GM has overruled, even on these boards.

 

Concept:

Character can shoot an ice blast (narrow beam) and a fire blast (narrow beam). Character aims at two different targets (one on the left at long range and one on the right at long range) simultaneously. Both targets are within range of the two attacks he possesses.

 

You can change the description of the powers in questions, but as long as the properties ot those attacks are the same and situation is the same, it is basically the same concept regardless of description. Two different attacks, two different targets, simultaneous attack.

 

This kind of thing happens in the source material, but the current rules do not allow for this kind of event. It allows for two attacks on the same target and allows for one attack against multiple targets.

 

Now you also claim that the system doesn't allow for Absolute Defense vs SFX, but then you have to define exactly what Absolute Defense actually means and if that definition can be achieved for a specific campaign.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

In the new optional rules you can sweep at range and you can do an all out attack which allows you to use every attack power that can be active at the same time and you can afford to pay the END for. now - those rule faq you can build a power with varible sfx advantage, AOE selective with the lim only can attack 2 targets.

[schir1964]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

When you say "new optional rules" are you referring to the core rules of Hero 5th Edition or the Revised? Or a rule that is in one of the Supplements?

 

One of the great things that Hero had going for it was that all you ever needed was the core rule book. But it seems that as more supplements come out, that strength is gets weaker.

 

If it's an optional rule in a supplement, that's great, but it doesn't help the gm or players that don't have that supplement. Therefore, the core rules don't allow it.

 

I think that all the rules should be in one place and written in a more open fashion as needed to allow the GM to create what he needs. But that is just a personal preference.

 

Obviously, someone else saw the lack of flexiblity in the core rules and decided to make and optional rule to override its inflexibility in that one area. This rule should have been in the core rulebook as a default or at the very least a variant of the default rule like Hit Locations is for the Normal Combat rules.

 

But still, that's only one thing that the rules can't do. Not bad considering the vast range of source material.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

 

Concept:

Character can shoot an ice blast (narrow beam) and a fire blast (narrow beam). Character aims at two different targets (one on the left at long range and one on the right at long range) simultaneously. Both targets are within range of the two attacks he possesses.

 

There is a book legal way to do it, using nothing but 5er, even if it is somewhat cheesy; it could be used for justification for doing it simply. Just did a quick reread of Multipower attacks and Rapid Fire - nowhere does it say you have to use the same amount of damage in a rapid fire attack.

 

So formally what you are doing is a multipower attack of the flame and ice. Rapid fire allows two targets. In one case you drop the dice of the ice to 1 pip (as you can't fire 0 dice, I think), - the fire attack. And reverse it on the other dropping the dice of the fire to 1 pip.

 

Completely book legal even if a little wonky to get there.

 

As a GM I'd just handwave it.

[Psylint]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

Two bits:

 

Ever since rapid fire came out you could shoot at two different targets, they just had to be within a frankly generous, 180 degree targetting sense arc.

 

Secondly, the general idea behind Active Point Limits and the like was to keep munchkins like me from getting 10d6 RKA's for 6 points and 0 End. There are some things that are difficult to model within an Active Point cap, and that's where you hand wave it.

 

If there's a power you can't model with the existing power/talent/skills published, build it yourself and talk to your GM about making it fit. Also look at non standard ways to produce what you're looking for. Is your repel field really a 2d6 energy blast with double,double,double,double knockback or is it a damage shield with martial throw? Is your superspeed really running, or flight on a surface, or teleport? Is your fear induction which causes folks to run directly away mind control only to induce fear, or telekinesis, affects whole object, causes no damage only to "push" sentient beings directly away from self, or a Pre Drain?

 

Folks on these boards are awfully creative, and I've come here to get help building all kinds of things in ways I'd never have thought of. If you can't build it, throw it up on the forums, chances are pretty good someone else can at least spur your to an idea that will ultimately come close.

 

Cheers!

[schir1964]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

Just thought of another concept that the existing rules forbid as source material concept.

 

Concept:

Reed Richards stretches both arms 20 feet and rescues a kitten in a tree. Reed sees two robbers, one to his left and one to his right. Each is 20 feet away from him. He stretches out both arms and grabs both of them.

 

The current Stretching rules and application don't allow for this. If you purchase 20 feet (or inches) of stretching, you can stretch forward with both arms and grab something, but if you try to stretch each arm (one left and one right), you may only stretch 10 feet (or inches) with each arm.

 

Now the GM can easily ignore this, but the initial post seemed to be wanting examples source material things that the rules (as written) would prevent you from building.

 

Now you can try to rationalize the Stretching rules as follows, but it runs into its own problems:

The number of inches purchased for Stretching is the total amount the character can stretch with a single limb (or body part) at a one time. This would make the rule consistent for why you can't stretch in two directions more than your total inches at any one time.

 

However, in order to build a Reed Richards character as described in the source material, would require total inches large enough to all allow all parts to stretch in all directions to cover what is described, but then that allows single limb to stretch much farther than the source material describes.

Another solution would be to purchase the Stretching multiple times to reflect the number of parts that can be Stretched simultaneously, but then that becomes too expensive to build a Reed Richards and still include all his other abilities.

 

Again, this isn't a large problem to overcome by the GM (via custom rules or custom limitations), but it is something that the rules technically don't allow you build in the way the source material appears.

 

A lot depends on whether one views a GM created custom limitation/advantage that overrides the books default rules/definitions as part of the core rules or as a GM overcoming the system's inflexibility. Either view is just as valid, but it does make discussing such matters difficult since the two views are diametrically opposed to one another and a consensus on the matter will probably not be achieved.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

There is a book legal way to do it, using nothing but 5er, even if it is somewhat cheesy; it could be used for justification for doing it simply. Just did a quick reread of Multipower attacks and Rapid Fire - nowhere does it say you have to use the same amount of damage in a rapid fire attack.

 

So formally what you are doing is a multipower attack of the flame and ice. Rapid fire allows two targets. In one case you drop the dice of the ice to 1 pip (as you can't fire 0 dice, I think), - the fire attack. And reverse it on the other dropping the dice of the fire to 1 pip.

 

Completely book legal even if a little wonky to get there.

 

As a GM I'd just handwave it.

I thought Rapid Fire was limited to a single target? (I could be wrong on this)

Of course I don't have the Hero 5th Edition Revised, just the Hero 5th Edition.

Or are you talking about Spreading the Rapid Fire?

 

Yes, I would agree it would be really wonky. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Thia Halmades]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

From this post' date=' I gather that experience with HERO's ruleset can limit us when it comes to envisioning effects which we know cannot be modelled with the (core) rules. How badly do you think the HERO system "locks out" legitimate ideas through its own imperfections?[/quote']

 

You'll need to give a concrete example of what you're asking. There are things HERO doesn't model WELL, because those things are built on rules handwaves -- such as Wish and Time Stop. You CAN do them, but to do them properly would cost a STUPID amount of points.

 

I also can't seem to build a Banishment spell that I'm happy with, but that's not because it isn't LEGAL in the rules (Teleport UOO) but because it's ... too simple. I don't like, it needs work. I need a Reistance mechanic, that's the only thing that irks me.

[schir1964]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

You'll need to give a concrete example of what you're asking. There are things HERO doesn't model WELL' date=' because those things are built on rules handwaves -- such as [i']Wish[/i] and Time Stop. You CAN do them, but to do them properly would cost a STUPID amount of points.

 

I also can't seem to build a Banishment spell that I'm happy with, but that's not because it isn't LEGAL in the rules (Teleport UOO) but because it's ... too simple. I don't like, it needs work. I need a Reistance mechanic, that's the only thing that irks me.

Yes, this is perhaps a better way to express it.

 

Totally agree.

 

Addendum: Thia, if you need help with constructing a new mechanic, you know where to find me. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

When you say "new optional rules" are you referring to the core rules of Hero 5th Edition or the Revised? Or a rule that is in one of the Supplements?

 

One of the great things that Hero had going for it was that all you ever needed was the core rule book. But it seems that as more supplements come out, that strength is gets weaker.

 

If it's an optional rule in a supplement, that's great, but it doesn't help the gm or players that don't have that supplement. Therefore, the core rules don't allow it.

 

I think that all the rules should be in one place and written in a more open fashion as needed to allow the GM to create what he needs. But that is just a personal preference.

 

Obviously, someone else saw the lack of flexiblity in the core rules and decided to make and optional rule to override its inflexibility in that one area. This rule should have been in the core rulebook as a default or at the very least a variant of the default rule like Hit Locations is for the Normal Combat rules.

 

But still, that's only one thing that the rules can't do. Not bad considering the vast range of source material.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Its in my 5th as an optional rule! I'll look it up but now I'm at work no access to book!

[Psylint]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

Banishment?

 

Why not Dispell Summon?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

I thought Rapid Fire was limited to a single target? (I could be wrong on this)

Of course I don't have the Hero 5th Edition Revised, just the Hero 5th Edition.

Or are you talking about Spreading the Rapid Fire?

 

Yes, I would agree it would be really wonky. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Oage 396 of 5ER -

This manuevear allows a character to fire a ranged attack more than once in a Phase, either at a single target or at multiple targets

 

[schir1964]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

Its in my 5th as an optional rule! I'll look it up but now I'm at work no access to book!

Really? Well I'll be flabbergasted! (8^D)

 

I guess I'm starting to forget things in my old age. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

Really? Well I'll be flabbergasted! (8^D)

 

I guess I'm starting to forget things in my old age. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Live and you learn! or learn to live pick 1!

[Steve]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

Banishment?

 

Why not Dispell Summon?

 

That's what I was thinking too. It would give you a resistance number to deal with, since the strength of the Summon would be determined by the power of the extra-dimensional thingie in question.

 

Even if they came under their own power, it is not a horrific handwave to rule things not native to a dimension subject to such a spell. Mind you, demigods and the like might take a wee bit of power to get rid of. Perhaps special artifacts would be needed, ones that provide an Aid effect to such a Dispel.

[Steve]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

The current Stretching rules and application don't allow for this. If you purchase 20 feet (or inches) of stretching' date=' you can stretch forward with both arms and grab something, but if you try to stretch each arm (one left and one right), you may only stretch 10 feet (or inches) with each arm.[/quote']

 

Isn't this sort of thing covered under the Power skill?

 

I guess I have to go back and re-read Stretching, since I thought it functioned as a radius effect around the body (one arm goes out 20" to the left and another arm goes out 20" to the right or both arms go out 20" in one direction). In either case it's still going 20" away from the body.

[pinecone]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

If it is an absolute limit (no book available) then just buy more streaching....and or limit extra streaching so you can "go in two directions"....

[Manic Typist]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

Stretching is as Mullins states. If you use half of your Stretching on one body part, all other body parts have the the other half remaining. So, you could stretch two limbs to half your normal distance, or four to one fourth, etc...

 

However, you CAN use Noncombat Stretching. So, if Reed bought 20" of Stretching, couldn't he use noncombat Stretching (40") to stretch one arm to the left and one to the right?

[Robyn]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

Just thought of another concept that the existing rules forbid as source material concept.

 

Concept:

Reed Richards stretches both arms 20 feet and rescues a kitten in a tree. Reed sees two robbers, one to his left and one to his right. Each is 20 feet away from him. He stretches out both arms and grabs both of them.

 

The current Stretching rules and application don't allow for this.

 

Thanks!

 

A lot depends on whether one views a GM created custom limitation/advantage that overrides the books default rules/definitions as part of the core rules or as a GM overcoming the system's inflexibility. Either view is just as valid' date=' but it does make discussing such matters difficult since the two views are diametrically opposed to one another and a consensus on the matter will probably not be achieved.[/quote']

 

Very true!

 

You'll need to give a concrete example of what you're asking.

 

I think the post I linked to will serve adequately, and you can also read Christopher Mullin's reply for another instance. It's difficult for me to come up with concrete examples, though, because I don't have enough experience with the rules to readily start with what is impossible and "work backwards" from there to a genre-appropriate situation where the verboten effect would be needed. The best I've been able to do is note when it occurs, and invite/request feedback so a bunch of other people (who are experienced with the rules, and trying to support various character concepts with them) can take a look at it.

 

Mind you' date=' demigods and the like might take a [i']wee bit[/i] of power to get rid of. Perhaps special artifacts would be needed, ones that provide an Aid effect to such a Dispel.

 

In such a case, we're dealing primarily with Avatars and the like, aren't we? It wouldn't be a stretch, then, to say that the source of their Summon effect was actually on their home plane, and require an artifact capable of applying Transdimensional to that Dispel.

 

However' date=' you CAN use Noncombat Stretching. So, if Reed bought 20" of Stretching, couldn't he use noncombat Stretching (40") to stretch one arm to the left and one to the right?[/quote']

 

If he could do that, why couldn't he use Noncombat Stretching (40") to stretch 40" in one direction?

 

Assuming the two robbers are each 40" away (are we doing this on a standard hex map? ), and it's Noncombat time, he can reach one of them but (by the rules) not both of them.

[schir1964]

Re: System cap on creativity

 

If he could do that, why couldn't he use Noncombat Stretching (40") to stretch 40" in one direction?

 

Assuming the two robbers are each 40" away (are we doing this on a standard hex map? ), and it's Noncombat time, he can reach one of them but (by the rules) not both of them.

Correct. The same restriction applies to Non-Combat Stretching also.

 

- Christopher Mullins