How To: Suspended Animation

[Sean Waters]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Not really. It sends him forward in time by a specified amount.

 

Time is a dimension though....The problem for me is that the sfx of this one is that the body remains apparent in the intervening time. EDM is instant: you travel at the time the power activates, and i just don't see how you can stab someone 5 minutes, or 2 days in the future when you are here and now.

 

I have to reiterate my concerns over inappropriate sfx, and the problem to my mind is 2-fold: first off making an instant power seem like it takes a long time can be misleading, logically: if I simply zap you into the future - you disappear and reappear in the future - then noone is going to spend time and effort trying to affect the corpus that is apparent in game time. That is a minor quibble - you can get round it easily enough with good GMing, but it DOES require that extra effort.

 

More seriously, what we have here is a circumvention of the intent of the rules: you TRAVEL to a DIFFERENT dimension or through time. If you have travelled to a different dimension (and you have, as soon as the power activates) then you are not in this one.

 

Now the rules are complicit to an extent in that they use, as examples of the power, 'wishing' - you travel to another dimension where your wish comes true.

 

OK, fine.

 

My attitude, harsh as it may be, is that you could conceiveably use this for a wish that JUST affected the target of the EDM (off you go to a dimension where everyone's physical appearance is changed to that of Donald Rumsey PERMANENTLY. You come back, you still look like Donald.

 

OTOH if you want to travel to a dimension wehre your team beat Dr Destroyer, that is fine while you are there, but when you come back, nothing has changed HERE (unless both your team and Dr D were included as targets, and even then when you come back, all anyone here will see is you and Dr D disappear and re-appear a moment later, with Dr D in irons.

 

The thing is it is a travel power, and whilst it can take you pretty much anywhere, it can't take you anywhere and leave you here. Well, it can if YOU are the target, but it can't if you apply UAA to apply limited powers on a target, like 'travels but leaves body behind'. I'm pretty sure that is prohibited in the book or FAQ somewhere, and quite right too.

 

Also, as an aside, both EDM and UAA are STOP powers. STOP, to my mind does not mean 'be even more lax than usual when considering handwaves on this one'. Well, obviously: the acronym would be BEMLTUWCHOTO. Coincidentally, that is the word for 'stop' in Kefellian.

 

The base point I make though is this one: you allow it, and you might as well scrap every other power: this one really can do anything, with handwaves in place. It is a complete game wrecker.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

I have to agree with Sean on this one. To my thinking, EDM was created so that the characters can go have an adventure on the elemental plane of earth or other exotic dimension. It is a movement power and should really only be used as such.

 

For the case where you put someone in an stasis field that cannot be affected by the outside world, an EDM through time with the SFX that they are in stasis is okay. Anything beyond that may be really clever, but untenable in my mind.

 

I missed somewhere along the line why a Transform won't work. This seems to me to be exactly what Transform is for. If you reworked the spell as Glyph of Petrification which turned the reader to stone, you would certainly use a Transform to do it. Mechanically this is the exact same thing.

 

Is a transform too expensive, or is there a concern that the Sigil won't work against a giant because he has too much BDY? If that is a problem you might try having the Transform work against EGO instead of BDY (+0 Advantage since EGO & BDY both cost the same). That might give a nice flavor to the spell since strong-willed individuals could resist it more easily.

 

If it is too expensive then consider making it a lower dice Cumulative Transform with a continuing charge. Then make it with Invisible Power Effects so that the continuing charge starts when the victim starts reading (but he doesn't know it because of the IPE) and when he is done one turn later (or whenever) the Transform is complete. But put a limitation on it that if the victim doesn't finish reading the text the Transform fails. Is that workable?

 

_______________________________________________________

Drained and blue

I bleed for you

You think its funny

But you're drowning in it too

- Alice in Chains

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Transform = Spell No Worky. However, I included it in my build for that reason. It's there should the caster want to go that route (or the end user).

 

At the same time, I can build it as a 4d6 Transform which someone could then Haymaker during his casting, making it a 6d6 Transform. If you've purchased additional dice for your magic in general, you can bump it to an 8d6 Transform, and that WILL get the job done.

 

Just hope your players are savvy enough to realize that 4d6 is the BASE, and 8d6 is the achievable MAX.

 

Who says you can't add dice? Anyway, I'm rather fond of EDM because it's clean, not necessarily because it's right. However, in all cases when there have been lots of people going "OH! OH! My two cents!!" I've simply included their versions as well as my own. That means that anyone who DLs the .hdp file is going to be really shocked to see 3 Glitterdusts, 3 Sepia Snake Sigils and ... there are a couple of other that might be in there.

 

Right now Wind Wall is giving me fits.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

At the same time' date=' I can build it as a 4d6 Transform which someone could then [i']Haymaker[/i] during his casting, making it a 6d6 Transform. If you've purchased additional dice for your magic in general, you can bump it to an 8d6 Transform, and that WILL get the job done.

 

Transform accumulates - one casting may not do it, but a couple should! You could use a much lower number of dice, but make the spell Uncontrolled Continuous to hit the target a number of times. That would make the effect less than instantaneous, but the target would be transformed after a few phases.

[tesuji]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Well, while ican understand the concerns, I see this as reasoning fromEFFECT.

 

What happens when someone is put in stasis for a period of time?

 

Answer: at some future point they come out identical to how they are now.

 

that is EFFECTively time travel to the future.

 

I dont myself get too caught up in "movement" any more than i get caught up in "well, if you super-didge you are not actually DEFLECTING the attack wen its missile deflect for super-dodge"

 

the "leaves body behind"-like aspect of "physical form is visible between then and now" is just flavor or at worst a limitation. its like having teleport to represent speedsters "have to cross interveneing distances" or desolid "not thru solids" to cover super-contortionists.

 

the EFFECT is to wind up at a later point untouched and unaffected by the passage of time/events, etc.

 

So, while i would balk severely at XDM for "wishes" (which rules-wise i have a problem with because the underlying assumption is that having XDM means there ARE in the universe any universe you can imagine... turning it from a movement power to a summoning power... summon universe i want) and consider it a misuse of the power.rules, even tho it may be in print somewhere, I do not see this being the cawe for stasis.

 

If the effect is "sometime later i come out of stasis identical to how i am now" then representing that as XDM seems perfectly fine with me. Complications (maybe SFX or maybe lims) include "what can break the effect, essentially interrupting the travel?" (this might be treated as non-points, the XDM time travel equivalent of "road closed") and the other issue of "well can anything at all affect me in the interim, like can I be moved while in stasis?"

 

of course, the discussion starts with the assumption that "freeze him safely until later" is an acceptable effect for the campaign. But then we rach "cost"!

 

********

 

While XDM-UAA works fundamentally for me, i think there is an obvious problem in terms of balance. The net effect is to remove someone from participation and the power itself is going to cost the same regardless of whether its a wheelchair bound soccer mom or Dr Destroyer (other thn the "common counter defenses" an UAA needs.) So as a practical matter, there might ought to be a way to work into this the "level of the enemy" so that it is harder to eliminate Tyrannon than to eliminate a local beat cop.

 

I think one approach to that might be useful in other ways... come up with some "reasonable" notion of the "saving throw" for HERO that can be plugged in for "common counter" clauses. So instead of saying "power defense or any teleportation/temporal powers" you could say "makes his save" and have the ption to buy "penalties to save" as part of the power.

 

I mean, in general, there are lots of UAA type powers which would effectively remove enemies, if approved, and those don't scale with "enemy removed" either, so maybe some sort of a power vs power check system is helpful.

 

off the top of my head, as a starter, "roll 1d6 per 5 active points in the power +2 for every +1 cp spent just to raise the level" vs "roll 1d6 for every 5 ap of your largest ap power/characteristic" and high result wins. Remember the real purpose of the save is not to let people avoid the effect but to force the purchaser of the effect to pay more for it if it can affect more powerful people, to have it scale with the threat level, and not be a "one size misfits all" thing.

 

You could make it "no roll at all" and simply leave it at "common counter: enemy has power with more AP than the stasis power" and allow +1 cp per +2 "effective ap" bonus for the stasis. This could even be rationalized under some SFX as "the target has too much energy for the stasis field to dampen" or insert other technobabble.

 

So vaguely...

 

XDM travel to future (set time frame = duration or maybe its tailorable on use) +1 UAA (common counter: "enemy has too much power to contain" as in moe ap in any one power or characteristic than stasis has.) -0 (nody remains "behind" in stasis field until complete or dispelled)

[tesuji]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Hey, new question.

 

If you have a SPD 2. And I Suppress 1 point of your (evenly 20) SPD, do you now have a SPD 1 until the Suppress ends? By one point, I mean 1/10th, and by rule, you cannot "count" 10ths of SPD. How would that work? Do you now have 1.9 SPD, effectively 1?

 

The rule for adjustment powers is that if something has breakpoints, then you dont gain the effect of the loss until the break point is reached.

 

So, draining me from 2.0 speed to 1.9 speed has no effect. You have to bring me down to 1.0 speed to see a penalty.

 

However it also works in reverse.

 

Drained to 1.0 speed, i don't "recover" back to 2 speed when i get to 1.5 speed. i have to keep recovering until i get a full 2.0 speed.

 

Works the same for the powers with big minimum costs..Desolid doesn't turn off until you drain my 40 ap. Then i have to recover all 40 back to use it again.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

I think part of the problem is that the original D&D spell has 2 conflicting effects:

 

1. While trapped in the amber field of force, the subject does not age, breathe, grow hungry, sleep, or regain spells. It is preserved in a state of suspended animation, unaware of its surroundings.
   
2. It can be damaged by outside forces (and perhaps even killed), since the field provides no protection against physical injury. However, a dying subject does not lose hit points or become stable until the spell ends.

It puts the target into a very vulnerable but stable state.

• The EDM Stasis build models the stability part fine but not the vulnerability.
  
• Drain SPD and any form of Entangle can model the vulnerability but not the stability.
  
• Transform can model both but intuitively doesn't feel right because having a higher BODY is an effective defense but doesn't fit the described D&D sfx. This might actually be the most acceptable compromise even though it is probably going to be the most expensive.

[1EyedJack]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

you might want to link Life support useable by or against others (I am not sure which would be appropriate) to simulate the statis effect with a nasty speed drain you would have to be creative with autofire,AE, and delayed fade rate to properlt simulate the effect, and a forcewall to protect the victim, and small uncontroled flah to appropriate sense so the vitem isn't aware of their surrounding... sounds expensive

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Sure, but why bother if I can achieve the same effect with Transform and call it what I want? The point of Transform at this level (that's "YIPE!" level) is to "kill" the target -- just put them straight out of the fight. The reason it works is because some people will have Power Defense to stop it, and of course, the spell as written has a Resisted by DEX Check on it. It's a trap, after all.

 

Now. Hugh, here's my question. If I dial down the dice to 3, and then make it AUTOFIRE 3, is it THEN cumulative? Because that's 9 points of damage 3 times (assuming it hits) and that's a win.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Sure' date=' but why bother if I can achieve the same effect with Transform and call it what I want? The point of [i']Transform[/i] at this level (that's "YIPE!" level) is to "kill" the target -- just put them straight out of the fight. The reason it works is because some people will have Power Defense to stop it, and of course, the spell as written has a Resisted by DEX Check on it. It's a trap, after all.

 

Now. Hugh, here's my question. If I dial down the dice to 3, and then make it AUTOFIRE 3, is it THEN cumulative? Because that's 9 points of damage 3 times (assuming it hits) and that's a win.

 

According to Hero Designer:

Transform is already cumulative in nature.

Transform is also a Non-Standard Attack Power and applying any level of Autofire is an additional +1 Advantage.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Ach-ha. So it would be a 2d6 Autofire 3 Transform, or for most people 6d6. If I Haymaker that, does it become 4d6 AF 3?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Here's my HERO version of the D&D spell:

 

31 Major Transform 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; +1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (262 Active Points); Extra Time (20 Minutes, -2 1/2), 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), All Or Nothing (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2) [1]

 

The standard effect of 30 points means that it will affect anyone with up to 30 BODY (the usual top end maximum for a human in a NCM game). I'm not sure if AOE 1 Hex is necessary but it suggests that DFC might be a valid mechanic to avoid the effect.

 

The biggest problem is that the Active Points (with or without the AOE 1 hex) is probably way out of the bounds of any VPP based HERO version of spell caster levels. The only way around that would be to make a house rule/build of some type to allow the 'Master VPP' to have spells (at least the lower level ones) much higher active costs than real cost. A similar house rule/build to allow nested 'Limited VPP's' inside the 'Master VPP' might be necessary to cover those spells like 'Alter Self' which have optional effects chosen at the time of casting.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Ach-ha. So it would be a 2d6 Autofire 3 Transform' date=' or for most people 6d6. If I Haymaker that, does it become 4d6 AF 3? [/quote']

 

I don't see how a triggered spell could be haymakered. It just seems like a variation on the classic 'cursed scroll' which would be a 'triggered' effect.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Yeah. That's a little on the high side. Valid, reasonable version, appropriately costed, but a little larger than what I'm dealing with. You're right, of course, because in game mechanics terms, it's a Trap (which is a d20 penalty on their math), in addition to requiring a silly amount of time to cast. So in that sense, the two just don't equate. I'm effectively "stuffing" it into a frame that might not hold the effect.

 

That's possible. *shrug* It just might not fit. But because the power allows a save, first, it's already "easily resisted." On the theory that your squishy thief disarms the traps. Who knows. Ultimately, though, it often feels as though d20 magic just assumes the "real cost" is the equivalent of the "Active Cost" and rolls on. SSN is an incredibly powerful spell. Seriously.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Yeah. That's a little on the high side. Valid, reasonable version, appropriately costed, but a little larger than what I'm dealing with. You're right, of course, because in game mechanics terms, it's a Trap (which is a d20 penalty on their math), in addition to requiring a silly amount of time to cast. So in that sense, the two just don't equate. I'm effectively "stuffing" it into a frame that might not hold the effect.

 

That's possible. *shrug* It just might not fit. But because the power allows a save, first, it's already "easily resisted." On the theory that your squishy thief disarms the traps. Who knows. Ultimately, though, it often feels as though d20 magic just assumes the "real cost" is the equivalent of the "Active Cost" and rolls on. SSN is an incredibly powerful spell. Seriously.

 

Here's a little cheaper version taking your AF idea into consideration:

 

11 Major Transform 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; +1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2) (97 Active Points); Extra Time (20 Minutes, -2 1/2), 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), All Or Nothing (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2) [1]

 

AF 5 means that someone with a high enough DCV is not going to get hit since at least 2 'shots' need to hit to affect someone with only 8 Body.

 

Edit: I just realized that 'All Or Nothing' may not mix with 'Auto Fire' but it would only affect the 'real' cost.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Here's the basics of your next spell:

 

Invisibility Sphere: Invisibility to Sight Group , No Fringe, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4), Selective (+1/4) (97 Active Points)

 

The only other alternative is Images but it has the problem of not allowing the people you share the power with to see through the image without buying 'personal imunity' as a naked advantage UBO' which gets you back to the same # of targets issue.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

..............................

the EFFECT is to wind up at a later point untouched and unaffected by the passage of time/events, etc.

 

............................

 

It is the 'unaffected' that is causing the problem here: the spell allows you to be affected WHILST you are winding up in the future.

 

Now someone remind me what 'wind wall' is supposed to do....that one SOUNDS easy

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

It is the 'unaffected' that is causing the problem here: the spell allows you to be affected WHILST you are winding up in the future.

 

Now someone remind me what 'wind wall' is supposed to do....that one SOUNDS easy

 

look it up here:

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

 

47 Wind Wall: FW (10 PD; 2" long and 1" tall), Hole In The Middle (Only works against ranged attacks that could be stopped by 10 points of Missle Deflection. ; +1/4), Transparent to ED Attacks (+1/2) (47 Active Points) 5 END

 

or

 

52 Wind Wall: Missile Deflection (Arrows, Slings, Etc.), Does Knockback (+1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1), Usable As Attack (x2 maximum weight per inanimate target; +1 1/4), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4) (52 Active Points) 0 END

[Sean Waters]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Solution? (well...A solution....)

 

In DnDWorldHero, ANY target is affected by transform as if it had 12 BODY, regardless of ACTUAL body.

 

Go with transform.

 

Bing

 

banga

 

boom.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

look it up here:

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

 

Sheesh you are quick...and I STILL can't rep you

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Sheesh you are quick...and I STILL can't rep you

 

Rep Thia, I found it from his ealier link.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

I'm helpful like that. And I need all t3h r3ppz0rz I can get. But that's neither here nor there.

 

Hyper-Man: I did a compound for Wind-Wall, I'll post it soon. And for Invis Sphere, I think your version is more accurate than my current one (which is a UBO AOE).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

13 Invisibility Sphere [illusion]: Invisibility to Sight Group , No Fringe, Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; Any single creature or object, weighing no more than 300 lbs.; +1) (60 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; An eyelash contained in a bit of gum arabic; -1), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 5 Minutes (-3/4), Requires An Illusion Roll (-1/2), Spell (Illusion; -1/2), Only When Not Attacking (Applies to All Recipients of Invisibility, -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

And here's my copy of Wind Wall (without the usual prettying up from editing, I'm in a semi-rush and working on BLINK).

 

18 Wind Wall [Evocation]: (Total: 88 Active Cost, 18 Real Cost) Force Wall (5 PD; 4" long and 2" tall), Transparent (Energy Attacks; +1/2) (31 Active Points); Only Works Against Very Limited Type of Attack (Small Flying Creatures, Slings & Arrows; -1), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; A tiny fan and a feather of exotic origin.; -1), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Requires An Evocation Roll (-1/2), Spell (Evocation; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6) plus Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing), Limited Power (Area of Effect Must Conform; +0), Usable By Other (+1/4), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Prevents gasesous state creatures from passing; +1/4), Area Of Effect (8" Any Area; +1 1/2) (30 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Protection From Gas Attacks; Easy to obtain new Focus; A tiny fan and a feather of exotic origin.; -1), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Linked (Gale Barricade; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Requires An Evocation Roll (-1/2), Spell (Evocation; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6) plus Missile Deflection (Arrows, Slings, Etc.), Limited Power (Area of Effect Must Conform; +0), Usable By Other (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4" Any Area; +1 1/2) (27 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Linked (Gale Barricade; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Requires An Evocation Roll (-1/2), Spell (Evocation; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

The trick with the Wind Wall is that it's really 3 effects, all happening at once.

 

1) It blocks arrows & small flying creatures. Easy peasy.

2) It blocks gaseous state creatures. Which is a heavily modified Life Support that Affects Desolid. It really doesn't MATTER where the Affects Desolid goes, that's just where I stuck it. It's a gas, it's an anti-gas LS, and it says I can do it in the book.

3) It also deflects all incoming attacks, which a plain old Force Wall don't do.

 

On top of that, it's expensive to build it in any of the conventional ways; if the wall is tough enough, it's expensive. If it's too weak, you lose the effect. You could even ask, "Is there a "wall" there at all?" If there isn't, how do you stop the small birds? I'm wondering if the small birds are a non-combat effect that I should hand wave.