How To: Suspended Animation

[Thia Halmades]

Still in the midst of my conversion project (d20 spells into HERO). Here be the rules:

 

Rule 1. The spell needs to make sense; it shouldn't do more than the original version, but it might very well do less, or simply be an effect that doesn't replicate easily.

 

Rule 2. The spirit of the thing is far more important than the letter of the thing. I'm not trying to recreate them, i.e., I don't want to play d20 in HERO. I'm trying to simulate them, and the feel of the magic system. So far, I'm doing great. Sometimes, I get stuck.

 

I'm stuck.

 

The spell is called Sepia Snake Sigil. The premise is simple: It's an Entangle that creates a field of suspended animation. POP, you're stuck. You don't even know you're stuck. I can build an Entangle, no problem.

 

It's the suspension bit I'm stuck on. Here's a link to Sepia Snake Sigil for reference, if you have any questions. Don't worry about trying to build it, I can handle that part. I'm just curious what the collective thoughts are on literally freezing someone in time.

[Steve]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

This sort of effect is normally done (that I've seen) as a combination of Feign Death and Life Support vs. Aging as a pair of Linked effects. The cryosleep modules in the Alien Wars sourcebook are done this way.

[transmetahuman]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

I don't much like Feign Death as an attack. If it didn't let you do damage to the suspended victim, I'd call it an EDM UAA, one-way to the future, with a "Must Pass Through Intervening Time"-type limitation to represent being able to be moved. As it reads, maybe you'd have to go with some kind of Mind Control, one command ("freeze in place"), plus Life Support UAA. Or a SPD reduction to zero with a GM fiat.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

It's an evil effect, and one I've used, albiet with caution. As i mentioned in another thread I modeled it as a pretty hefty SPD suppress rather than an Entangle, because I prefered the way it "feels" in play... no breakout, it just lasts till the time runs out/End supply runs out, and someone with a really buffed SPD (Say, a AID Speed Haste Spell) will still act, but much slower... this breaks from the total time suspension mold. Under this model totally freezing time as an absolute effect (barring defences) would take a 120 point SE Suppress in my games...enough to suppress a 12 SPD. Possibly with a +1/4 to hit Dex as well, and with the aforementioned Life Support & Feign Death

 

I'm biased agianst using Entangle for effects that IMO(as GM) there shouldn't really BE a breakout roll for.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

That's an extremely valid point, and one I flat out had not considered (i.e., SPD Suppress for the duration). HUH. Hang on, I'll try that.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

I'm dying over here. As a 12d6 SPD Suppress on a 6 Hour Continuing Charge... EESH. It won't "STOP" anyone, but damn if it won't slow them right down. If I use Standard Effect I can get it to 36 points; I'll just add two dice (pushing it to 70 AP) to net the full 4 SPD (NCM).

 

YEEHAW. Thanks, y'all. Extra thanks to ANB.

 

Edit: 13d6+1 SER 40 point SPD Suppress. w00t. 67 Active (with no Advantages). That'll have to change with Trigger, but it's a cheap Trigger (+1/4).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Hey, new question.

 

If you have a SPD 2. And I Suppress 1 point of your (evenly 20) SPD, do you now have a SPD 1 until the Suppress ends? By one point, I mean 1/10th, and by rule, you cannot "count" 10ths of SPD. How would that work? Do you now have 1.9 SPD, effectively 1?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Current version based on feedback:

 

13 Sepia Snake Sigil II [Conjuration]: Suppress SPD 10d6+1 (standard effect: 31 points), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 6 Hours (+0), Trigger (Reading Text requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger Activates Once and Never Resets; Trigger Activates Once Text is Read; +1/4) (65 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; 500 gp worth of powdered amber, a scale from any snake, and a pinch of mushroom spores. ; -1 1/4), Requires A Conjuration Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; Victim Makes a DEX Check; if it Succeeds by More Than the Caster Check, the Spell Fails; -3/4), No Range (-1/2), Spell (Conjuration; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Requires Light To Use (-1/4), Written Text Required (Text of 25 words or more on a book, map or the like; -1/4)

[gojira]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

My gut reaction was Mental Entangle about 4d6 or more (so most folks stay entangled), plus the aforementioned Life Support (Doesn't Age plus Doesn't Eat or Drink), and maybe Self Contained Breathing too. SFX: Suspended Animation.

[gojira]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Otoh, how does one get a permanent effect? That's a Transform, right? So Transform: Target to Target in Suspended Animation. Reverse is by caster wills release or the opposite Transform is applied.

[Mister E]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Otoh' date=' how does one get a permanent effect? That's a Transform, right? So Transform: Target to Target in Suspended Animation. Reverse is by caster wills release or the opposite Transform is applied.[/quote']

 

I fully agree that this is best modeled as a Transform.

 

"While trapped in the amber field of force, the subject does not age, breathe, grow hungry, sleep, or regain spells. It is preserved in a state of suspended animation, unaware of its surroundings. It can be damaged by outside forces (and perhaps even killed), since the field provides no protection against physical injury. However, a dying subject does not lose hit points or become stable until the spell ends."

 

The same could be said of someone who was turned to stone; only I'd imagine a character frozen in the 'amber' field of frozen time would have the same DEF (and what not) as he/she normally did (as opposed to someone turned to stone).

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Dang, I wish I'd gotten here earlier.

 

This thread talks about how to do a stasis effect

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Dang, I wish I'd gotten here earlier.

 

This thread talks about how to do a stasis effect

 

Actually, EDM seems like the perfect way to model a statis field since for most sfx (like the Slaver Stasis fields in Larry Niven's Known Space stories) they operate just like the Speed Zone from The Ultimate Speedster except that they access a super-SLOW timeframe instead of super-FAST. It might even be a way to effectively model that most un-modelable ability in HERO: Invulnerability. The tradeoff is that the character literally cannot do anything else.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

I don't want to use EDM, because it pops you... well, into another dimension. TRANSFORM is the HERO way of saying 'I paid for my hand-wave.' I love this game. 44 ways to model the same damn thing, all valid.

 

Chris: I will read the thready.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Transform won't do what I want -- I can't "freeze" anyone on 4 dice, it just isn't going to happen. That's an average of 12 BODY (not enough in most cases) and a max of 24 BODY (Plenty! But unlikely). So I've gone with EDM, and it looks like this:

 

10 Sepia Snake Sigil III [Conjuration]: Extra-Dimensional Movement (Frozen in Time), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 12 Hours (+0), Trigger (Victim Reads Text, Trigger Activates Once and Never Resets; +1/4), Usable As Attack (+1), Continuous (+1) (65 Active Points); Casting Time (10 Minutes, -2), OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; 500 gp worth of powdered amber, a scale from any snake, and a pinch of mushroom spores.; -1 1/4), Requires A Conjuration Roll (RSR Skill is subject to DEX vs. Conjuration contests; Victim May Make a DEX Check vs. the Caster's Conjuration Check to Avoid the Effect; -3/4), Spell (Conjuration; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Requires Light To Use (Ensorcelled Text Must be Read; -1/4)

 

What I also like here is the simple "saving throw" the spell allows without the mess of trying to model saving throws. They aren't explicit in the system, but this is a perfect case of wanting to give someone an "escape clause."

 

I've checked it over and I think this is 100% legal. I made it Continuous as it would need to be, and then slapped on a Continuing Charge (12 hours instead of 6, which isn't a huge deal but it made me happy). As always, we solicit feedback.

 

That's the royal we.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

There's always one and it is usually me....

 

I do like the EDM idea, but then again....I don't see how having to pass through time on the way to the future is going to paralyse you. If you are passing through time, just like everyone else, you should be free to act and if you are in a different dimension/timestream then you should be invulnerable to anyone not using transdimensional attacks. Otherwise this is a very very cheap and effective way to build a hold person type spell.

 

SPD drain doesn't really work on its own because it doesn't take away PS12 even if you have SPD 0 - you can still bleed to death, or die of a disease, for instance.

 

What you want here is someone to basically not move for a couple of days, and be unaffected by their environment, unless that environment is actively trying to harm them. Not real easy....

 

I'm going back to look at transform: I agree you cannot transform someone in an all-or-nothing way, but you could perhaps use a much smaller transform and an uncontrolled continuing charge to rev up the points over a few phases until the transform takes effect. Not how the spell works but, by jiminy, that is a pretty beefy spell for 3rd level and it has the same effect, albeit with a slow onset (well, maybe not that slow if you cf DnD rounds and Hero turns....). Transform target to flesh statue with glowy field around it.....

 

Other than that I'm thinking you go with some sort of BOECV entangle or mind control to freeze them and Life Support useable by others to stop them ageing etc. even then you can't technically stop bleeding unless you build in a specialised regeneration too, and that is going to get very expensive.

 

I think the problem here is that the DnD version is only really worried about the real cost - the limitations bring it down to 3rd level - it can't be used offensively - BUT we have to worry about active cost too. Unless, of course, we don't

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

...

I do like the EDM idea, but then again....I don't see how having to pass through time on the way to the future is going to paralyse you.

 

It doesn't have to be EDM to the future. It could be as simple as EDM to a dimension where time passes a 1,000,000 times slower than it does on the one the character started on. That is effectively paralization & invulnerability. Yes, there IS a reason that EDM is a stop-sign power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaver_stasis_field

 

Slaver stasis field

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

 

The Slaver stasis field is a fictional technology from Larry Niven's Known Space series, a product of Tnuctipun ingenuity and creativity. Inside the field, time is slowed to a near stop, with billions of years passing on the outside before one second passes on the inside.

 

The field creates a bubble of space/time that runs separate from the rest of the universe. Anything inside a stasis field can not be affected by anything outside of the field. The only exception to this rule is if two stasis fields are rammed into each other at high speeds. This causes a catastrophic collapse of both fields, destroying whatever is inside. Similarly, one stasis field cannot exist within another; the inner one is deactivated while the outer one is extant, allowing objects within the outer field to interact with those within the inner field.

 

A concept similar to this can be found in the Artemis Fowl (series).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Ayup. I'm standing behind EDM on this one; once the Charge expires, you're free. Being Usable As Attack removes the target's ability to leave the dimension of their own free will. Since it's a controlled EDM handwave, this "dimension" can put someone in a state of suspended animation.

 

Kinda hand wavy. Totally legal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

It doesn't have to be EDM to the future. It could be as simple as EDM to a dimension where time passes a 1' date='000,000 times slower than it does on the one the character started on. That is effectively paralization & invulnerability. Yes, there IS a reason that EDM is a stop-sign power.[/quote']

 

No real problem with paralysation AND invulnerability (well, some issues but nothing relevant to this discussion) but what we have here is paralysation WITHOUT invulnerability.

 

You could, of course, include a naked UOO Transdimensional advantage so that any attacks could affect the target. Or not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Ayup. I'm standing behind EDM on this one; once the Charge expires' date=' you're free. Being [i']Usable As Attack[/i] removes the target's ability to leave the dimension of their own free will. Since it's a controlled EDM handwave, this "dimension" can put someone in a state of suspended animation.

 

Kinda hand wavy. Totally legal.

 

The issue for me is that the power puts the target in a different dimension, it doesn't alter the rules in this one.

 

I suppose that you could define the dimension as one where time does not pass and that is sufficiently congruent to this one that objects in either dimension can interact normally but that falls down badly on the logical front: how can I stab someone whose atoms are fixed in time, either the future or the past? Even if interaction were theoretically possible I would have thought the most you could manage was moving the body, not, for instance, damaging it.

 

Now handwaving can get around anything, of course, but (and I know EDM has been abused officially as well as unofficially, and that we cannot rely on power labels) the power allows (or with the right advantages compels) travel to another dimension. To my mind that other dimesion has to have some rules and shouldn't really be accessable from this dimension except with some power or power/advantage combination.

 

I just think that allowing this is a bit too much of a cop out: you can use it for any spell that affects the individual:

 

Dominate: I move you to a dimension where we can still interact but you have to do what I say.

 

Death Spell: I move you to a dimension that doesn't suppost any life at all.

 

Tasha's Hideous Laughter: I move you to a dimension where you can't help laughing. Hideously. You know, like Tasha. But we can still interact.

 

Hell, area effect spells too:

 

Fireball: I move a big globe and all in it to a dimension that looks like this one, but which is filled with fire. And we can still interact. Thems the rules (frantically waving both hands - thems the somatic gestures).

 

Not a precedent I would wish to have set.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

The issue for me is that the power puts the target in a different dimension, it doesn't alter the rules in this one.

 

I suppose that you could define the dimension as one where time does not pass and that is sufficiently congruent to this one that objects in either dimension can interact normally but that falls down badly on the logical front: how can I stab someone whose atoms are fixed in time, either the future or the past? Even if interaction were theoretically possible I would have thought the most you could manage was moving the body, not, for instance, damaging it.

 

Now handwaving can get around anything, of course, but (and I know EDM has been abused officially as well as unofficially, and that we cannot rely on power labels) the power allows (or with the right advantages compels) travel to another dimension. To my mind that other dimesion has to have some rules and shouldn't really be accessable from this dimension except with some power or power/advantage combination.

 

I just think that allowing this is a bit too much of a cop out: you can use it for any spell that affects the individual:

 

Dominate: I move you to a dimension where we can still interact but you have to do what I say.

 

Death Spell: I move you to a dimension that doesn't suppost any life at all.

 

Tasha's Hideous Laughter: I move you to a dimension where you can't help laughing. Hideously. You know, like Tasha. But we can still interact.

 

Hell, area effect spells too:

 

Fireball: I move a big globe and all in it to a dimension that looks like this one, but which is filled with fire. And we can still interact. Thems the rules (frantically waving both hands - thems the somatic gestures).

 

Not a precedent I would wish to have set.

 

This is why I suggested the SPD suppress.... when I did so I was working off the idea that the target can still be messed with. In such caes I'd rather apply my limited supply of handwavium to ignoring the whole Post-12 recovery issue, as there is no system to remove it (I'd probably allow it to remove the PS-12 recovery if the suppress was enough to remove an extra pip of speed past the 0 point). It might even pretend to be a game balance issue... if you can still effect the target, he can still recover. The not-bleeding bit, however, kinda counteracts the no recoveries part.

In any case, if modeling a non-interactive stasis feild I'd agree that EDM is the right way.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

This is why I suggested the SPD suppress.... when I did so I was working off the idea that the target can still be messed with. In such caes I'd rather apply my limited supply of handwavium to ignoring the whole Post-12 recovery issue, as there is no system to remove it (I'd probably allow it to remove the PS-12 recovery if the suppress was enough to remove an extra pip of speed past the 0 point). It might even pretend to be a game balance issue... if you can still effect the target, he can still recover. The not-bleeding bit, however, kinda counteracts the no recoveries part.

In any case, if modeling a non-interactive stasis feild I'd agree that EDM is the right way.

 

I like the idea of balanced handwaving: that seems much more palatable to me than the normal variety.

 

I would be happy to house rule that anything with SPD reduced to 0 is effectively in stasis: not changing unless changed by an external force, not metabolising etc, but you would have to specify that was how you were building the power right from the start.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

The issue for me is that the power puts the target in a different dimension, it doesn't alter the rules in this one.

 

Not really. It sends him forward in time by a specified amount.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: How To: Suspended Animation

 

Actually' date=' EDM seems like the perfect way to model a statis field since for most sfx (like the Slaver Stasis fields in Larry Niven's Known Space stories) they operate just like the Speed Zone from The Ultimate Speedster except that they access a super-SLOW timeframe instead of super-FAST. It might even be a way to effectively model that most un-modelable ability in HERO: Invulnerability. The tradeoff is that the character literally cannot do anything else.[/quote']

 

Repped! I was going to suggest something similar. If he doesn't have Ultimate Speedster, how might we model it?

 

I'd suggest a Major transform that turns the person into "same guy, but in the slow zone". It's as if the whole universe were in the speed zone (except for this poor schmuck) for the duration of the transform. Attacks which hit him do not take effect until the transformation "heals", is suppressed or dispelled. If you think a build like this is to powerful, tough. The same number of points in an energy RKA would probably have incinerated him. This way there's a chance for survival.