Raising the Dead

[Vestnik]

Hello y'all, I have a question.

 

Perhaps (probably) this or something like it has been dealt with elsewhere. I am building a character with ghost-based powers (he's basically a sort of ambassador from the World of the Dead). Something I want him to be able to do is to find a body, or just go to a gravesite, and temporarily summon the spirit of the person who died and converse with them, possibly ask them for favors of some sort. How would one do this?

 

Summon is the obvious intuitive answer, but the +1 "Summon Specific Individual" is fixed to, well, summoning ONE specific individual, not a different specific individual in different circumstances. How do I model it that, if I do this at Einstein's gravesite I get Einstein's spirit, but if I do it at Tamerlane's, I get Tamerlane's?

 

Thanks mucho!

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

I'd suggest trying to boil it down to what you want the spirit to do for you, and then build that effect. At that point, the fact that you're "summoning a spirit" just becomes a special effect.

 

For example, if you want the spirit to tell you things it knows from its life, maybe you want to buy Clairsentience with Retrocognition. If you want it to tell you about the spirit world, maybe you could buy that as KS: Spirit World, or as an organizational Contact with the spirit world, etc.

[Vestnik]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

I'd suggest trying to boil it down to what you want the spirit to do for you, and then build that effect. At that point, the fact that you're "summoning a spirit" just becomes a special effect.

 

For example, if you want the spirit to tell you things it knows from its life, maybe you want to buy Clairsentience with Retrocognition. If you want it to tell you about the spirit world, maybe you could buy that as KS: Spirit World, or as an organizational Contact with the spirit world, etc.

 

I thought about that (Clairsentience, Retrocognition, Only Things the Spirit Kniew in Life, Requires a Persuasian or Interrogation Roll, Retrocognition Only), but there might be two problems:

 

1. I want the spirit to actually be able to move about and engage in a modicum of activity.

 

2. As I understand things, Clairsentience with Retrocognition is limited to a certain area, or radius. Thus the summoned dead guy would not be able to tell me about things he had done travelling around. Also logically it would have to be bought for all Senses the person had in life, which would be expensive (relatively).

[Vestnik]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

Hmm, perhaps a kind of variable Follower? Can that be done? A small VPP, "only for Followers"? Sounds cheesy.

[OddHat]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

+1 Summon Specific Being, +1/2 Expanded Class: Any Specific Ghost, +1 1/2 total.

[Vestnik]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

+1 Summon Specific Being' date=' +1/2 Expanded Class: Any Specific Ghost, +1 1/2 total.[/quote']

 

That was easy. Thanks!

[OddHat]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

There was a thread at one point on whether or not Summon Specific Being was correctly priced. One argument (spearheaded well by Hugh) was that Specific Being actually lost you functionality in most cases, and so should be +/-0. The counter argument was that the ability to kidnap a specific NPC unfailingly, develop a working relationship with a target of frequent summonings or obtain very detailed or specific information from a source guaranteed to have it was worth the +1.

 

Interesting topic.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

I was going to suggest a summon VPP but I think OddHat's suggestion is far superior.

[Vestnik]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

There was a thread at one point on whether or not Summon Specific Being was correctly priced. One argument (spearheaded well by Hugh) was that Specific Being actually lost you functionality in most cases, and so should be +/-0. The counter argument was that the ability to kidnap a specific NPC unfailingly, develop a working relationship with a target of frequent summonings or obtain very detailed or specific information from a source guaranteed to have it was worth the +1.

 

Interesting topic.

 

Do you have a link to the thread, or has it been lost in the mists of time?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

There was a thread at one point on whether or not Summon Specific Being was correctly priced. One argument (spearheaded well by Hugh) was that Specific Being actually lost you functionality in most cases, and so should be +/-0. The counter argument was that the ability to kidnap a specific NPC unfailingly, develop a working relationship with a target of frequent summonings or obtain very detailed or specific information from a source guaranteed to have it was worth the +1.

 

Interesting topic.

 

That is a very good point to raise here: being able to summon ONE specific being (ghost) and being able to summon ANY specific being (ghost) have massively different functionality and use that is really not covered adequately by a 'mere' +1/2 expanded class advantage.

 

In fact that is pretty much a licence to use summon as an attack power.

 

Perhaps a radically different approach is needed and we should be thinking more of an attack power here: some sort of UAA EDM or transdimensional teleport. Perhaps not.

 

I suppose one place to start is to ask 'what can ghosts do in your game if you summon one' - being able to move about a bit is one thing and answer questions, but if they can interact with other characters that really does sound like some species of summon or UAA travel power.

[OddHat]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

that really does sound like some species of summon or UAA travel power.

 

It is a species of summon, and is built accordingly.

[OddHat]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

Do you have a link to the thread' date=' or has it been lost in the mists of time?[/quote']

 

'Fraid not.

[OddHat]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

That is a very good point to raise here: being able to summon ONE specific being (ghost) and being able to summon ANY specific being (ghost) have massively different functionality and use that is really not covered adequately by a 'mere' +1/2 expanded class advantage.

 

In fact that is pretty much a licence to use summon as an attack power.

 

Perhaps a radically different approach is needed and we should be thinking more of an attack power here: some sort of UAA EDM or transdimensional teleport. Perhaps not.

 

I agree that it's a chewy subject.

 

Summon Any Specific Being would be a +2 advantage, and would let you kidnap anyone at anytime and then try to force them to provide services with an EGO contest. Assuming the GM permitted that build, would it be fairly priced? For 210 active points, you could grab any 350 point character at any time from anywhere and at least try to bend them to your will; on the other hand, for 210 active points you could do all sorts of nasty things, from 20d6 mind control and a big honking Mind Scan for targeting to a simple 42d6 energy blast, either of which could be used against foes far more powerful than a 350 point character.

 

The pricing seems fair to me, but I'd be glad to hear counter arguments.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

On sale tomorrow, the new DH (#42) has a character from You Gotta Have Character who has the ability to communicate with the dead; you might find that write up worthwhile.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

Do you have a link to the thread' date=' or has it been lost in the mists of time?[/quote']

 

I think this is the one: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6248

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

Summon Any Specific Being would be a +2 advantage, and would let you kidnap anyone at anytime and then try to force them to provide services with an EGO contest. Assuming the GM permitted that build, would it be fairly priced? For 210 active points, you could grab any 350 point character at any time from anywhere and at least try to bend them to your will; on the other hand, for 210 active points you could do all sorts of nasty things, from 20d6 mind control and a big honking Mind Scan for targeting to a simple 42d6 energy blast, either of which could be used against foes far more powerful than a 350 point character.

 

The pricing seems fair to me, but I'd be glad to hear counter arguments.

There are at least a couple of other factors here, as well. For one, not only can you kidnap someone and try to bend them to your will, you can also kipnap someone and simply kill them. For example, with this price structure, one could assassinate virtually anyone with near-unfailing success. For example, for 75 points you can Summon any living human up to 150 points. That should neatly cover most world leaders (who are, after all, mostly older folks with few dangerworthy abilities).

 

Also, it doubles as an infallible MegaScale Mind Scan when it comes to locating people. Wanna find Judge Crater? Just Summon him. Mystery solved!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

I agree that it's a chewy subject.

 

Summon Any Specific Being would be a +2 advantage, and would let you kidnap anyone at anytime and then try to force them to provide services with an EGO contest. Assuming the GM permitted that build, would it be fairly priced? For 210 active points, you could grab any 350 point character at any time from anywhere and at least try to bend them to your will; on the other hand, for 210 active points you could do all sorts of nasty things, from 20d6 mind control and a big honking Mind Scan for targeting to a simple 42d6 energy blast, either of which could be used against foes far more powerful than a 350 point character.

 

The pricing seems fair to me, but I'd be glad to hear counter arguments.

 

Arguments about pricing are very subjective and will always come back to individual experience, so I won't get into that one too far, but I will say that any power that allows you to summon and control the major villain of the scenario without leaving your armchair is not something I'm keen to see in any game I run

 

I mean, why not go the extra mile: for another +1 you can make the summonee slavishly loyal. OK, that's 280 of your Earth points, which doesn't leave much room for other superpowers, but are you going to need them?

 

 

I think that the cost is going to be a stumbling point though in the instant example: being able to summon any ghost, assuming you have the body - and whatever other limitations you want - is going to depend on how much ghosts cost. If Dr D dies, will his shade also have 3000 points, or whatever the current value of the Destructive One is?

 

Presumably most ghosts will have very different point values from their live counterparts, so build is an important consideration. In fact the assumption of an afterlife populated by ghosts is a pretty important consideration for most games, but that is a different problem entirely.

 

Assuming that this trick will work for any ghost, subject to whatever limtiations you build in, then it doesn't make much logical sense that the point total could prevent a summons, unless you are able to build a summon large enough to call any ghost in the game-world (shades, if you'll pardon the pun, of the 'invulnerablity' discussions here....)

 

Now if all ghosts are built to not exceed (say) 50 points, you have an easy enough task, and only need (50/5)x3 = 30 points of power, which seems rather low for a very impressive ability.

 

I'd imagine, even if they were basically just mental and personality stats and knowledge skills, that a lot of ghosts would exceed this though, and I'd be wary of building such a cut-back spirit world: presumably even ghosts have some physical presence where they usually wander. Assuming that ghosts only have the characteristcs and abilities that the player might find useful is pretty close to an abuse of summons.

 

My problem with costing is not, therefore, the cost as such, but building a power that works consistently for a campaign appropriate cost. That is going to involve the GM telling the player a lot of information that they would not normally know. I think that is not really right.

 

Plus, of course, you are stacking STOPs.

 

As earlier posters have said, it would be worth listing what you expect the ghosts to do for you and then seeing if there is not an alternative build involving clairsentience and TK, for example, that mighjt not serve as well.

[OddHat]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

There are at least a couple of other factors here, as well. For one, not only can you kidnap someone and try to bend them to your will, you can also kipnap someone and simply kill them. For example, with this price structure, one could assassinate virtually anyone with near-unfailing success. For example, for 75 points you can Summon any living human up to 150 points. That should neatly cover most world leaders (who are, after all, mostly older folks with few dangerworthy abilities).

 

Also, it doubles as an infallible MegaScale Mind Scan when it comes to locating people. Wanna find Judge Crater? Just Summon him. Mystery solved!

 

I'd point out that, for 210 active points, you can assassinate any non Super with near guaranteed success in any number of ways. That's not a mechanics problem; it's a case where the GM will just have to say "No, you can't use that power in that way, it's too unbalancing."

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

I'd point out that' date=' for 210 active points, you can assassinate any non Super with near guaranteed success in any number of ways. That's not a mechanics problem; it's a case where the GM will just have to say "No, you can't use that power in that way, it's too unbalancing."[/quote']Well, my example was only 75 Active Points, not 210. And this power could grab such people even if they're surrounded by bodyguards, even if you don't know where they are, etc.

 

I agree in principle that it's not a mechanics problem, but I do think it's a lot more powerful/useful than many/most constructs of similar Active Points. 'Course it's also stacking Stop Sign effects, which is of course a screaming red flag to the GM.

[Rapier]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

I'd point out that' date=' for 210 active points, you can assassinate any non Super with near guaranteed success in any number of ways. That's not a mechanics problem; it's a case where the GM will just have to say "No, you can't use that power in that way, it's too unbalancing."[/quote']

 

Well, that's certainly true. A 14d6 RKA isn't going to leave much more than ash, on average.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

I'd point out that' date=' for 210 active points, you can assassinate any non Super with near guaranteed success in any number of ways. That's not a mechanics problem; it's a case where the GM will just have to say "No, you can't use that power in that way, it's too unbalancing."[/quote']

 

You are assuming:

 

A That you can find them

B That they don't hit you first ( 210 points doesn't leave that much for sedefnces, given that most supers spend at elast 100 points on characteristics)

 

The summon option solves both problems simultaneously, and so seems somewhat superior for the point spend. Moreover it alows you o do more or less the same with the majority of supers.

 

42d6 is excellent if you can find and hit your opponent, but is otherwise just an intereesting lightshow.

[OddHat]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

You are assuming:

 

A That you can find them

B That they don't hit you first ( 210 points doesn't leave that much for sedefnces, given that most supers spend at elast 100 points on characteristics)

 

The summon option solves both problems simultaneously, and so seems somewhat superior for the point spend. Moreover it alows you o do more or less the same with the majority of supers.

 

42d6 is excellent if you can find and hit your opponent, but is otherwise just an intereesting lightshow.

 

Actually, I was thinking of something on the order of:

Mind Scan 5d6, +4 ECV, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Cumulative (120 points; +1) (99 Active Points)

Mental Illusions 7d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2), Cumulative (168 points; +1) (105 Active Points)

 

204 Active points to find your target anywhere in the world and Mental Illusion him to death (by going for a MI that does body). I'm sure you can come up with many similar approaches for safely wiping out almost any target almost anywhere on 210 active points.

 

I wasn't thinking in terms of a straight 42d6 energy blast, though I'd say that too would be a potentially unbalancing power in most games.

[tesuji]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

recently i was looking for aspeak with the dead power and did some scans of fantasy hero and grimoire and some of the mystic hero sourcebooks (all 5th ed) for voodoo or necromancy type effects.

 

One of them priced speak with dead as a transdimensional mind scan

which was pretty expensive as i recall, maybe with a linked mind link. but the gist was to define "spirits" as simplky poeple living in a "land of the dead" dimension and thus speak with dead was the equivalent of finding someone across an entire dimesnsion (-20 to roll due to polulation) and taking it from there.

 

My approach was to buy different effects with the SFX of conujuring spirits... the clarsentience postcog was one, a +25 INT for gaining knowlede was another, some overall levels with "once set during ritual cannot be changed until ritual done again" to represent specific advice from spirits o given problem, and even just some dice of luck.

[1EyedJack]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

As above with additional Suggestions

12d6 Mind Scan Spirit class of minds +6 ECV to find a specfic spirit.

8d6 Telepathy Spirit Class of minds to communcate with them.

12d6 Mind control Sprirt class of minds to make them do your bidding.

or Persasion with a high skill roll and maybe a good reputation among the spirits to give you bonuses with interaction skills.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Raising the Dead

 

A Ghost in the Hero System Bestiary is built on 405 points (p 120). Now, this is for a Ghost that is already "here", like a haunting, and can be a threat to people. If you work with the GM, you can likely build a "Generic" ghost that includes a "blank check" of points for skills/knowledges they learned while alive (or maybe learned afterwords). I'd think that the ghost of Einstein would have the same abilities as the ghost of Fred the carpenter in the next grave over. Only their knowledges would differ. Again, IMO.

 

But if the ghosts you can summon are "lesser" ghosts (to coin a phrase ), then it won't cost as much to summon them (they're built on far fewer points, even given the Skills they'd have).

 

And I would abhor the use of Summon to summon a specific individual (like Joe Normal) vs a generic representative of a group (Generic Human #47), when that individual is reachable by "normal" means. To me, Summon means either a generic thing (Summon Horse) or something from a different dimension/plane (Summon BigUnUgly, the lord of the Left Corner of the 7th Plane of Denile). Being able to Summon is, to me, something that should be never allowed by using the Summon Power.

 

If you want that ability, build it with a Mind Scan & linked Teleportation UAA. There's a reason why being able to summon me should cost a butload, and still not be guaranteed to work (even if allowed in this 'alternate' build).Rant>