Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

I agree that a GM should point out that the attack does not look like a normal Flame Blast' date=' but that is as much as I'd give away. Of course, once he has seen them, Namor can identify the different attacks....but I've always thought of flame blasts as relatively slow: if we are talking normal or explosive bullets....well, it would require a pretty impressive PER roll to spot the difference...[/quote']

 

But you are talking about real world bullets. To function like that in HERO the attack should at least have IPE SFX Only on the Explosion Advantage. The default rule is that every SFX is visible.

 

example 2:

A character with a HA with the Variable Advantage has several different attacks available through 1 power. However, an observer will see each different Advantaged HA as a different SFX.

 

Yes, suprise can be a factor the 1st time an new sfx is used but if the character is famous their 'fighting style' might be in the news media and characters with KS: Superhero World should be given a chance to recognize an attack that they have never seen in person before.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

But you are talking about real world bullets. To function like that in HERO the attack should at least have IPE SFX Only on the Explosion Advantage. The default rule is that every SFX is visible.

 

example 2:

A character with a HA with the Variable Advantage has several different attacks available through 1 power. However, an observer will see each different Advantaged HA as a different SFX.

 

Yes, suprise can be a factor the 1st time an new sfx is used but if the character is famous their 'fighting style' might be in the news media and characters with KS: Superhero World should be given a chance to recognize an attack that they have never seen in person before.

 

....which probably makes the cost so high that the damage is pathetic.

Also there is nothing to prevent a player defining every slot in a multipower with exactly the same SFX - visible sfx tell you who is attacking you, not what they are attacking you with necessarily.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

...

Also there is nothing to prevent a player defining every slot in a multipower with exactly the same SFX - visible sfx tell you who is attacking you, not what they are attacking you with necessarily.

 

I disagree with this one. I will have to do some research to confirm but I am pretty sure that each different slot in a multipower will have a unique appearance even if they do fall under the same meta-SFX.

 

We may be running into a vocabulary issue as the idea of "SFX" is being used to both represent the flavor (ice, fire, electricity) and visible mechanics (Advantages) of different abilities.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

I disagree with this one. I will have to do some research to confirm but I am pretty sure that each different slot in a multipower will have a unique appearance even if they do fall under the same meta-SFX.

 

We may be running into a vocabulary issue as the idea of "SFX" is being used to both represent the flavor (ice, fire, electricity) and visible mechanics (Advantages) of different abilities.

 

I'll see if I can find anything when I get home, but as far as I know a character could have a MP with a heat based sfx slot that is defined as a green beam that burns when it hits and an ice based entangle slot that is defined as a green beam that freezes you when it hits.

 

As a matter of style and construction I agree that it would be quite proper to have different attacks generally APPEAR different, but I don't think that it is a system requirement, or that IPE is a fine enough tool to deal with it if it was.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

Funny how I've been playing this game since 1st edition yet I never manage to run out of things I'm unclear about.

 

I would say that that doesn't speak well of the Hero System, but I can say that about some other games I've been playing since the 80's.

At leas we always have something to debate/argue over.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

I'll see if I can find anything when I get home, but as far as I know a character could have a MP with a heat based sfx slot that is defined as a green beam that burns when it hits and an ice based entangle slot that is defined as a green beam that freezes you when it hits.

 

As a matter of style and construction I agree that it would be quite proper to have different attacks generally APPEAR different, but I don't think that it is a system requirement, or that IPE is a fine enough tool to deal with it if it was.

 

Ok, if both slots are otherwise identical in cost structure they CAN have different SFX since, in that instance, the multipower slot cost is replacing the Variable SFX advantage. However, if the powers are constructed differently in any way I would imagine observers should be able to recognize the differences when they are used.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

Having to make a DEX Roll and falling to 1/2 DCV is a serious deterrent. If your player thinks theres never a reason to Dodge vice D4C, let him go a few rounds in one of my games and Ill disabuse him of that belief quickly.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

DFC is one of those necessary conceits of the system where every attack has a defence and so on and so forth.

 

You know Missile Deflection? I’m bookless at present, but the default position is that you can’t missile deflect an AoE, unless the AoE has a limitation that it CAN be missile deflected.

 

Well, why not allow a limitation on AoE that it CAN be DFC’d, but the default position is that it can’t.

 

I mean, it makes sense, if you see a grenade sailing through the air that you can guess where it is going to land, you can estimate the likely blast radius and you will have time to move, but if the explosion is caused by a destabilisation beam hitting something near you and making it explode instantly, how are you going to have the chance to move?

 

Because dramatic action says I can. Because if they do it in the movies, I can do it in game. That's really what HERO is for me; if I saw it in a film, in a videogame (and some of those are absurd, by the way) so on and so forth, then I can recreate it in HERO. That's just the way it is.

 

To say that you can't DFC from an AOE doesn't even begin to make sense, either thematically, dramatically or any other conceiveable way. It plain old doesn't add up. Why would I want to take away someone's ability to get the heck out of the way? You need to pay for that, not the other way around.

 

Currently in HERO Defense is KING. It's cheaper, there are a gabillion options, and it keeps gearheads like me happy designing newer, more interesting attack variations and SFX. Anyone can DFC. Anyone can Dodge for an entire turn. That's just the way the system is designed. I would never make "Can be DFC'd" an Advantage.

 

*shudder*

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

Having to make a DEX Roll and falling to 1/2 DCV is a serious deterrent. If your player thinks theres never a reason to Dodge vice D4C' date=' let him go a few rounds in one of my games and Ill disabuse him of that belief quickly.[/quote']

 

LMAO -- that's KS, but I need to learn this stuff first hand. However, I now know the primary benefits and detriments. He wasn't the one who DFC'd, that was the mook, although should he make the argument again, now I have all the ammo I need.

[KarinsDad]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

One thing you should do is be consistent.

 

If the mook knows all about the PCs and can determine from SFX when to DFC and when not to, the PCs should have the same capability if they know about the mooks.

 

Personally, I would not tell players which attack I was making. I would say "StarThunder is attacking you, what are you doing?". If the player asked which attack, I would say "Give me a perception roll" and I would make knowing the type of attack from the type of SFX difficult. It might be easy to know that StarThunder is using a gun, but the same gun might have different attacks. On the other hand, when the PC attacks an NPC, I would rarely use DFC and if I did, I would have the NPC make a perception roll.

 

Heroes combat is not a chess game where all moves are out in the open. Players (and NPCs) should not be omniscient and the GM just needs to be consistent about it in both directions, regardless of how he decides to play it.

[Blue]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

I would say that that doesn't speak well of the Hero System, but I can say that about some other games I've been playing since the 80's.

At leas we always have something to debate/argue over.

Well, it doesn't help that I'm not the kind of guy who can read a 500 page game book cover to cover. So what I end up with is using the things I REMEMBER from previous play (right or wrong) until I come across the right rule.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

Learn as you go - nothing wrong with that. I find that especially for looking up combat rules the Combat Handbook is extremely useful, even more so than the main book.

[Silbeg]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

As for DFCing melee attacks' date=' you have to get right out of the range of the melee attack? Well that means that the attacker certainly CAN adjust point of aim – so why can you do that in melee but not for ranged attacks?[/quote']

 

I guess I would rule that it works exactly the same in melee and ranged combat. So, if a character DFC's far enough away, he could get out of range (though this is usually tough for ranged combat, it can happen, especially with limited range, etc). Also, if the target dives far enough to change range bands, he would get the benefit of that as well.

 

Also (and more likely) the target of a ranged attack would be able to get behind cover, which the name of the maneuver implies that he should do.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

For melee its an issue of reach, for ranged its the line of attack. If I DFC against an EB and I can only go back or forward in a straight line with the attacker the only benefit I may get is from hitting the dirt and reducing my profile. If I can dive left or right then I'm safe, or if I can dive behind cover in front of or behind me I'm safe.

 

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/revisedrules/COMBAT%20AND%20ADVENTURING.htm

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

Heroes combat is not a chess game where all moves are out in the open. Players (and NPCs) should not be omniscient and the GM just needs to be consistent about it in both directions' date=' regardless of how he decides to play it.[/quote']

 

I'd rep you but I'd done so too recently for something else. I think this is difficult for ME, personally, because I tend to announce things. However, I am getting very good about "The mentalist is clearly concentrating!" and "The wizard begins to cast a spell!" The spell casting can of course get a PER roll to determine which spell, etc. and so forth.

 

But this is an excellent point.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Aborting Rules: Dodge v. Dive for Cover

 

I think DFC and dodge are different and both very useful. Here is an example, when you fight one big guy who may exceed damage caps and can paste you in a single hit, you want to DFC. No one can take your ability to get out of the way, away from you. but as soon as a mook with autofire shows up, you dont' want to DFC because that autofire mook is going to waste you with a huge amount of called shots.

 

I think dodge is more useful against more people, which is a great deal of combats involve more than one person on a side (at least half in my experiance, but i'm sure other games may vary). I like how DFC works right now, it is the cure all defense against anything, it's harder against bigger AoEs and less effective against explosions (except to lower damage) but it is a general panacea.

 

Also re-ajusting DCV and position and allowing the attacker to retarget a moved target, makes ranged AoEs much better than HtH AoEs because they are going to almost always ignore DFC and paste the target.

 

I just recently learned that DFC works against mental attacks. By moving a single hex you can dodge your brain out of the way. I think it might be silly but it's a totally useful manuver when you are facing a brain rape. The house rule DFC we saw earlier was completely useless against mental attacks.

 

I think that the house ruled version presented above would be fine for some genres like Dark Champions, where people are DFCing behind cover and concealment all the time and bullets fill the air, but in areas where there is no cover, it's not as useful. It also feels less appropriate for most superheroic genres, in my opinion. The one thing I would definately change about that house rule, regardless of genre, is the fact that (other than putting you "in the air," potentially increasing knockback) it doesn't hurt you when you fail. You've gained nothing, but you've lost nothing by trying. I think it should render the character prone (in the air) if they fail, and by aborting they should be allowed to rearrange their CSLs before getting hit, regardless of success or failure.

 

I also think that two attacks should have different visible special effects unless they have IPE. what i mean by this is that if you have a multipower of a 6d6 AoE fireball, and a 9d6 single target fireball, they look different. You won't know which one is AoE until you've been hit by it once, and you won't know which one i'm using as my first attack (since you've never seen either), but once i use both AoE and single target you can tell them apart easily, and once i use a single target, you know the AoE looks different.

 

Why? because otherwise i could make a multipower of

60str

4d6 HKA

1d6 HKA NND vs flash defense sight does body (super eye gouge), and you've never know if i was going to cut your head off, break your nose, or gouge your eyes out until after i've struck. And you should, you should know that my eye gouge looks different from my regular strength or my HKA.