Basil Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 For all of you interested in a "Solar HERO" type of setting, or who are just interested in real-world astronomy: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003620652_mars16.html It's now thoroughly confirmed; there is water beneath Mars' surface. BTW, if anyone has a link to a more scholarly write-up of this info, please post it here. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Re: Mars has water! BTW, if anyone has a link to a more scholarly write-up of this info, please post it here. Thank you. There were several links via Google news and Yahoo news Friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Re: Mars has water! I'll see if I can get to the technical paper in Science on Monday and see what it has to say. I've gotta be at work to do that, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Now we can melt the ice caps covering the red planet in 36 feet of water that will then refreeze increasing the planet's radiance! MWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Story as posted on the Mars Express page Annoyingly, I can't find the paper that page says they published. It's not in last Friday's issue of Science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Now we can melt the ice caps covering the red planet in 36 feet of water that will then refreeze increasing the planet's radiance! MWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!! Better yet, we could evaporate it all. Water vapor is an extremely effective greenhouse gas. Mars would then suffer runaway global warming and would soon turn steamy and lush--a perfect environment for martian dinosaurs to roam. If only Mars were big enough to actually hold onto its volatiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Better yet, we could evaporate it all. Water vapor is an extremely effective greenhouse gas. Mars would then suffer runaway global warming and would soon turn steamy and lush--a perfect environment for martian dinosaurs to roam. If only Mars were big enough to actually hold onto its volatiles. Yep. If we could take Mercury apart and ship every gram to Mars, the two together would make a decent sized planet. Would still need a magnetic field though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Orbital colonies would probably prove more economical than terraforming, allow a better simulation of earth conditions for the inhabitants, and have a dramatically shorter implementation time-frame. Not to be a stick in the mud or anything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Orbital colonies would probably prove more economical than terraforming' date=' allow a better simulation of earth conditions for the inhabitants, and have a dramatically shorter implementation time-frame. Not to be a stick in the mud or anything...[/quote'] Probably. No reason they have to be mutually exclusive though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Better yet, we could evaporate it all. Water vapor is an extremely effective greenhouse gas. Mars would then suffer runaway global warming and would soon turn steamy and lush--a perfect environment for martian dinosaurs to roam. If only Mars were big enough to actually hold onto its volatiles. Since there is water, when do we find the buried ancient cities?? And when do we find the really tall four armed guys with swords??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Orbital colonies would probably prove more economical than terraforming' date=' allow a better simulation of earth conditions for the inhabitants, and have a dramatically shorter implementation time-frame. Not to be a stick in the mud or anything...[/quote'] Large-scale terraforming is absolutely not economical unless you are willing to wait for two or three geological epochs. However, we now know Mars has an ample supply of water that could be used to support a colony there; that alone would make it more economical than an orbital colony, since water would not have to be transported to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Re: Mars has water! And I thought this thread was going to be about this: http://www.sweetconfusion.net/misc/marswater.gif ..Sorry, work joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inu Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Yep. If we could take Mercury apart and ship every gram to Mars' date=' the two together would make a decent sized planet. Would still need a magnetic field though.[/quote'] Nuke the core to jump-start its spinning! It works every time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Large-scale terraforming is absolutely not economical unless you are willing to wait for two or three geological epochs. However' date=' we now know Mars has an ample supply of water that could be used to support a colony there; that alone would make it more economical than an orbital colony, since water would not have to be transported to it.[/quote'] I want way more information to sustain that assertion before I accept that line of thinking - it may just make mars a convenient location for a "water factory." This is doubly true since Mars' gravity makes an orbital elevator possible in an engineering sense; and because technologies on the horizon make both the production of breathable air (from carbon - a very neat trick that NASA is working on for a potential manned mars expedition), as well as technologies for water dramatically improved water reclamation (and creation from the relevant gases), possible. Jupiter, Titan, Callisto, and Mars might simply be supply depots for colonies in their orbit I'm not wholly convinced man, who has evolved over hundreds of millions (or billions) of years to be efficient in the earth environment remain healthy in the long-term on a planet with significantly different gravity (and atmosphere). Just creating a breathable atmosphere on mars would take generations. And even then, it might be a real problem in physiological terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Re: Mars has water! I remember teaching some limitations to Mars as a terraforming target. Human requirements for breathing are more stringent than one immediately thinks. There's a minimum pressure limit, and a minimum oxygen pressure limit. There are also some maximum pressure limits (CO2 has one), and over the long term there are some other things that will slowly damage your lungs (but are OK in the short term) ... water vapor, particulates, etc. Also, high concentrations of O2 cause both biological and non-biological problems (e.g., the Apollo 1 fire). In addition to adding water, you need to add both oxygen and a largely inert buffer gas to make Mars's atmosphere breathable. The easiest candidate for the buffer gas is N2 (which some plants and microbes can fix into useful nutrients), but if you aren't interested in establishing a full biosphere you could probably get away with neon or a few other things. You can't just use CO2, though; human respiration has a definite (and pretty harsh) limit on how much CO2 it can tolerate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealVector Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Mars has water. Mars still needs women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Re: Mars has water! At least we now have more of an excuse for the women to wear bathing suits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Re: Mars has water! And why do they need to wear bathing suits? Huh? Huh? Nekked! That's the ticket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Re: Mars has water! I'm not wholly convinced man' date=' who has evolved over hundreds of millions (or billions) of years to be efficient in the earth environment remain healthy in the long-term on a planet with significantly different gravity (and atmosphere). [/quote'] Only one way to find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Re: Mars has water! This is doubly true since Mars' gravity makes an orbital elevator possible in an engineering sense; Phobos being below Clarke orbit of Mars still seems a problem to me for building a beanstalk. I'm told it is not an insurmountable problem, still -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Re: Mars has water! I'm not wholly convinced man' date=' who has evolved over hundreds of millions (or billions) of years to be efficient in the earth environment remain healthy in the long-term on a planet with significantly different gravity (and atmosphere).[/quote'] Nothing a little genetic engineering couldn't cure. Here, let me poke you with this syringe. Just creating a breathable atmosphere on mars would take generations. And even then, it might be a real problem in physiological terms. Like I said, large-scale terraforming of Mars would take not just generations, but many millennia. However, your initial statement was that orbital colonies would be more sustainable/less expensive, which is no longer the case now that large quantities of water have been found on Mars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Nothing a little genetic engineering couldn't cure. Here, let me poke you with this syringe. Like I said, large-scale terraforming of Mars would take not just generations, but many millennia. However, your initial statement was that orbital colonies would be more sustainable/less expensive, which is no longer the case now that large quantities of water have been found on Mars. If technology continues to advance, and I see no reason why it shouldn't, think we can get down to centuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Like I said, large-scale terraforming of Mars would take not just generations, but many millennia. However, your initial statement was that orbital colonies would be more sustainable/less expensive, which is no longer the case now that large quantities of water have been found on Mars. Repeating an assertion does not constitute a proof. Until such time as you actually hammer out the math on centuries in not a millenium or more of terraforming work and compare it the construction of orbital habitats you are flailing at windmills. especially since reclamation technologies are advancing at such a pace that we may be able to create water via engineering on the molecular level long before a terraforming project would be completed. Further, and inevitable part of a terraforming project would be... large scale orbital habitats that would span several generations. Also, genetic engineering may allow modifications to the human genome that would allow long-term habitation on Mars without serious health side-effects, but until it happens long-term human habitation of Mars remains less than ideal - and a matter for science fiction. I think, without many more advances in technology, and much more understanding of projects being taken on a global scale, there's nothing to talk about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feralucce Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Yes, too much co2 and you start to get carbonic acid in the lungs... kind of nasty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Re: Mars has water! Repeating an assertion does not constitute a proof. Until such time as you actually hammer out the math on centuries in not a millenium or more of terraforming work and compare it the construction of orbital habitats you are flailing at windmills. especially since reclamation technologies are advancing at such a pace that we may be able to create water via engineering on the molecular level long before a terraforming project would be completed. Further' date=' and inevitable part of a terraforming project would be... large scale orbital habitats that would span several generations. Also, genetic engineering may allow modifications to the human genome that would allow long-term habitation on Mars without serious health side-effects, but until it happens long-term human habitation of Mars remains less than ideal - and a matter for science fiction. I think, without many more advances in technology, and much more understanding of projects being taken on a global scale, there's nothing to talk about.[/quote'] So you concede that you were wrong to claim that orbital colonies would be cheaper than colonies on the surface of Mars. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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