Ogre NND Question

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I still insist you are confusing suffocation with having the air squeezed from your lungs. Both make it difficult to get oxygen to your brain' date=' but the latter also [i']HURTS LIKE HELL[/i].

 

I also still insist that while there is nothing wrong with the write-up of the power, Ogre is simply lacks the finesse, intelligence and restraint necessary to pull something like this off. He should have instead:

 

Oops: HA: +8d6, HA, NNC (typically when Ogre is trying to be delicate).

 

Insist away. What you describe though is being hit or crushed hard enough to overcome your muscle and the structural integrity of your ribcage, and thus force the air from your lungs. That is a normal attack, a grab and squeeze. I'm not insisting or anything, I just think that is the way it is. It is the pressure on your ribcage that hurts, not the air leaving, just like it would hurt if I grabbed your arm and squeezed hard enough.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Actually it is the absoulte crux of my argument.

 

People have claimed (not saying you, you may or may not have made this claim) that the power we "reversed engineered" saying that the creators said "We need to give Ogre an NND, what can we use to justify this?". I disagree with that line of reasoning, because a brick crushing the air out of someone's lungs is very "in genre". This is the way HERO has decided to do this effect. I believe if, for some reason, HERO said a 1d6HKA was the effect of removing air from lungs, Ogre would have that. I believe they simply said, "We want Ogre to be able crush the air out of lungs, what have we used for that?" as opposed to what others think happened "We want Ogre to have an NND how can we justify that?"

 

Whether you agree with it or not is totally up to you, change what you don't like, but like Dust-Raven and I said in my falling from a tree example, having the air forced out of your lungs by impact HURTS, so I'm all right with the NND.

 

It probably was me: I'm cynical like that. Still, better to think of people as cynical and manipulative than the alternative. More polite, anyway.

 

Answer me this one then: why does the 'manouevre' work the same against everyone (or, to be precise, everyone with the same stun total)? Why does this 'forcing of air from lungs' work the same way on a normal and a Hulk clone? What is it about the 'manouevre' that allows it to ignore the strength and durability of the target?

 

You see, I think that falling out of a tree and hitting the ground hurts, and the air thing is utterly irrelevant.

[Checkmate]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Answer me this one then: why does the 'manouevre' work the same against everyone (or, to be precise, everyone with the same stun total)? Why does this 'forcing of air from lungs' work the same way on a normal and a Hulk clone? What is it about the 'manouevre' that allows it to ignore the strength and durability of the target?

They (they being the powers that be at HERO), thought it was the best way to simulate this effect, and to be honest, I don't see another way. As with anything, if by the SFX you don't think it should effect someone, then as a GM don't let it. Allow the SFX to have some meaning in the game as opposed to all mechanics.

 

You see' date=' I think that falling out of a tree and hitting the ground hurts, and the air thing is utterly irrelevant.[/quote']

But I've taken falls from equal heights and taken no STUN at all. Most falls from this height didn't slow me down at all. It was the air being forced out that cause the dizzyness, hyperventilation and "STUN" damage.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Insist away. What you describe though is being hit or crushed hard enough to overcome your muscle and the structural integrity of your ribcage' date=' and thus force the air from your lungs. That is a normal attack, a grab and squeeze. I'm not insisting or anything, I just think that is the way it is. It is the pressure on your ribcage that hurts, not the air leaving, just like it would hurt if I grabbed your arm and squeezed hard enough.[/quote']

 

I'm certain you'd agree with me if it'd ever actually happened to you. Really.

 

Regardless, this isn't a simple matter of applying pressure to the chest cavity. This is a quickly applied pressure, deliberately angled to push upon your diaphragm, compressing your lungs faster than you can safely exhale (which is where the pain comes in, which in this case is being translated into STUN loss). Your muscles won't help unless you are actually using them at the exact moment the pressure is applied for the exact purpose of resisting the pressure, and then only if these specific muscles are stronger then the pressure (and chances are, any 10 STR character's arm strength is greater than any other 10 STR character's diaphragm). Even then, the idea of this maneuver is to take advantage of the fact the target breathes, applying it during the start of an exhale when the target is most vulnerable and cannot easily resist the pressure (taking advantage of the body's natural breathing rhythm). The ribcage isn't actually involved here, unless the maneuver is applied incorrectly or inaccurately (which would then be a normal grab and crush, hence the RSR Limitation on the Power). In some circumstances, the players/authors may not care about the specifics involved and just say the attacker grabs, squeezes (doesn't matter where) and the target takes some damage unless he doesn't need air in the first place. I don't think my far more complicated, yet completely accurate, description is necessary, but it's there for the taking if anyone's interested in a mental picture of how this would really work.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Answer me this one then: why does the 'manouevre' work the same against everyone (or' date=' to be precise, everyone with the same stun total)? Why does this 'forcing of air from lungs' work the same way on a normal and a Hulk clone? What is it about the 'manouevre' that allows it to ignore the strength and durability of the target?[/quote']

The amount of STUN, the actual number, is the same, the percentage of STUN loss is less for the Hulk than is is for Joe Normal. Sure, Hulk will feel the pain, but not care as much. Hell, it probably won't even be Stunned. Joe Normal is likely to pass out from the pain or at least be completely incapacitated for the next several seconds.

 

You see, I think that falling out of a tree and hitting the ground hurts, and the air thing is utterly irrelevant.

But when you fall out of a tree, you don't land on your diaphragm.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I still insist you are confusing suffocation with having the air squeezed from your lungs. Both make it difficult to get oxygen to your brain' date=' but the latter also [i']HURTS LIKE HELL[/i].

 

Yet, under the suffocation rules, the former will eventually kill the target. Even if Ogre maintains his hold and keeps on squeezing for an hour, the target (completely unable to draw any air into his lungs) will not take a single point of BOD, because NND's don't do BOD. CONCLUSION: An NND that does not do BOD does not properly model suffocation, as it cannot result in death. An NND: Does BOD does not properly model suffocation, as it will result in death far too rapidly to be realistic.

 

Therefore, NND Suffocation, whether the "official" way or not, is a poor model, because it does not achieve the effect.

 

As Sean notes, Change Environment doesn't work due to the rules. hence the theory that an Adder for causing suffocation (ie invoking the already existing drowning/suffocation rules) is the logical way to go.

 

CE can already do this - you could CE to remove methane gas. A character with Breathe methane, and unable to breathe oxygen, is now unable to breathe. We just need a way to make the character who can breathe oxygen, not methane, suffocate when you CE the air to methane.

[GAZZA]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

CONCLUSION: An NND that does not do BOD does not properly model suffocation' date=' as it cannot result in death. An NND: Does BOD does not properly model suffocation, as it will result in death far too rapidly to be realistic.[/quote']

Technically correct.

 

However, Ogre is a Champions NPC, which means death is pretty unlikely in any case, so as far as the genre goes it doesn't work out too bad. Of course you could do it like this:

 

Multipower "Suffocate by squeezing", 60 point reserve, must follow grab

6d6 EB, NND

4d6 EB, NND, Does BODY, only to an unconscious target

 

But that second slot doesn't strike me as particularly useful.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Multipower "Suffocate by squeezing", 60 point reserve, must follow grab

6d6 EB, NND

4d6 EB, NND, Does BODY, only to an unconscious target

 

A few issues there. First, a 4d6 NND that does BOD is far too fast for death by suffocation. Even with a 4 SPD, that's 16 BOD per turn on average. A suffocating target only takes one.

 

Second, if the target is playing possum, the 4d6 attack fails entirely. Even if we only limit the Does BOD advantage, he takes less Stun than he would have from having the air forced from his lungs because Ogre is now trying to kill him?

 

I supppose one could apply a kludgy Does BOD to 1d6 of the base NND, make it Standard Effect for BOD only, and restruct its damage to 1 BOD per turn, only if the target is unconscious.

 

Of course, even getting over the KA approach, how come the target who isn't KO'd still has full END? By the book, lack of air affects END first, then STUN. None of these suffocation attacks have reasoned from that effect.

[GAZZA]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Yeah, all good points. Suppress REC, Drain STUN and END. That's probably the way that is most consistent with the suffocation effects described in the main rulebook.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

The amount of STUN' date=' the actual number, is the same, the percentage of STUN loss is less for the Hulk than is is for Joe Normal. Sure, Hulk will feel the pain, but not care as much. Hell, it probably won't even be Stunned. Joe Normal is likely to pass out from the pain or at least be completely incapacitated for the next several seconds.[/quote']

 

...hence my comment about characters with the same stun total: What we compare is this:

 

CHAR A STR 60, PD 30/20, STUN 50

 

CHAR B STR 10, PD 5/0, STUN 50

 

Now, why should CHAR A not be better able to resist the effect than CHAR B, given the stated sfx?

 

 

But when you fall out of a tree' date=' you don't land on your diaphragm.[/quote']

 

 

Well, that's the point, isn't it? What hurts is having your diaphragm paralysed, not having air forced out of your lungs, but being unable to breathe becasue the muscle is in spasm. It has happened to me.

 

It isn't painful as such, but is extremely distressing. I didn't pass out, but I did panic until I could breathe again, and couldn't really concentrate on anything else until then.

 

The next time it happened I knew what was going on and I did not panic so much.

 

You can do it by punching someone in the right spot, just below the ribcage, roughly in the centre. Mind you, if they know the punch is coming and tense up, they can avoid the effects.

 

It is still not sounding like an NND to me.

 

Finally, a 'true' suffocation power, built with powers, to simulate the rules suffocatin would do this:

 

1. Supress your REC to 0 for the duration.

2. Cause 1 END damage per (victim) phase, while they still had END.

3. Cause 1d6 STUN damage per every other (victim) phase if they don't have END.

4. Cause 1 BODY damage per victim phase if they have no STUN (or END).

 

Easy enough to do, but ridiculously expensive for a power that is relatively rubbish at putting someone down in Hero combat.

 

Also, if you did have a 'suffocation' power it should cost 20 points as the defence (LS: doesn't need to breathe) costs 10, and defences cost less than the attack power. Theoretically, according to the metarules*.

 

 

 

 

* Not true, but nevermind, eh?

[KarinsDad]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

...hence my comment about characters with the same stun total: What we compare is this:

 

CHAR A STR 60, PD 30/20, STUN 50

 

CHAR B STR 10, PD 5/0, STUN 50

 

Now, why should CHAR A not be better able to resist the effect than CHAR B, given the stated sfx?

 

Precisely.

 

 

And actually, the writeup of Ogre in CKC does not have a Bearhug NND listed.

 

Where is this SFX that people are talking about? Did they just make that up out of whole cloth from the OP's description of the NND? Or is there another writeup of Ogre somewhere else?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

...hence my comment about characters with the same stun total: What we compare is this:

 

CHAR A STR 60, PD 30/20, STUN 50

 

CHAR B STR 10, PD 5/0, STUN 50

 

Now, why should CHAR A not be better able to resist the effect than CHAR B, given the stated sfx?

Because CHAR B paid for the extra STUN, and is thus equally able to resist the effects as CHAR A. This is not a situation where one character should be better because he has more STR, but where two characters are equal because they have the same pain/shock threshold (not counting what their actual CON values are, which you neglected to mention).

 

Well, that's the point, isn't it? What hurts is having your diaphragm paralysed, not having air forced out of your lungs, but being unable to breathe becasue the muscle is in spasm. It has happened to me.

Um... no. That's not what I said, and that's not even close to what I described.

 

You can do it by punching someone in the right spot, just below the ribcage, roughly in the centre. Mind you, if they know the punch is coming and tense up, they can avoid the effects.

 

It is still not sounding like an NND to me.

Sounds like a Block. Blocks are all or nothing even if the attack isn't.

 

Finally, a 'true' suffocation power...

 

Blah, blah blah... whatever. We're not talking about a suffocation power, we're talking about a Power that doesn't affect people who don't breathe.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

And actually' date=' the writeup of Ogre in CKC does not have a Bearhug NND listed.[/quote']

 

The write-up of Ogre under discussion, as well as the full write-up of the Bearhug maneuver/power, is in The Ultimate Brick, pages 121 and 52 respectively.

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Speaking as a moderator, this thread has been relatively calm and productive recently. Keep the tone friendly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Because CHAR B paid for the extra STUN' date=' and is thus equally able to resist the effects as CHAR A. This is not a situation where one character should be better because he has more STR, but where two characters are equal because they have the same pain/shock threshold (not counting what their actual CON values are, which you neglected to mention).[/quote']

 

What I'm suggesting is that the ability to force air from the lungs very much depends on the strength and defences of the target: if you can't apply enough force to crush them then you cannot force the air out. There is no magic spot that you can hit that empties the lungs, as far as I know, so I am saying that EVEN witht he same stun and CON scored, someone who is stronger and better defended will take less damage, which moves this uot of the realm of the NND to my mind.

 

 

Um... no. That's not what I said' date=' and that's not even close to what I described.[/quote']

 

I don't think that having the air forced REMOVED from your lungs, however quickly, will hurt. It is how that is accomplished that may hurt.

 

 

Sounds like a Block. Blocks are all or nothing even if the attack isn't.

 

Funnily enough I was going to post one of my diatribes against this particular sfx - I mean it makes some contextual sense for some situations: Johnny Iron Guts (a heroic character) takes a punch from One Shot Maguire (another heroic character), tenses his gut and feels very little.

 

It makes no sense though if the punch is coming from Ogre: Fist of all JIG, no matter how hard he tenses, simply can't make himself tough enough to realistically withstand a blow from Ogre and - even if we agreed he could - what happens tot he considerable knockback - tensing up doesn't make you heavier or better anchored. The same comemnt would apply if the target were GROND - he might be able to tense hard enough to avoid direct damage, but that sfx does not explain where the KB goes...

 

This is even more relevant if JIG is trying to block a blow from Sammy The Stabber, who uses a knife: JIG has no resistant defences....

 

So, in my little world, you can use that justification in limited circumstances, but you can't assume that it works as a universal cure all.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

What I'm suggesting is that the ability to force air from the lungs very much depends on the strength and defences of the target: if you can't apply enough force to crush them then you cannot force the air out. There is no magic spot that you can hit that empties the lungs, as far as I know, so I am saying that EVEN witht he same stun and CON scored, someone who is stronger and better defended will take less damage, which moves this uot of the realm of the NND to my mind.

 

I don't think that having the air forced REMOVED from your lungs, however quickly, will hurt. It is how that is accomplished that may hurt.

While there is no "magic" spot, there is a spot where if enough pressure is applied, the target will feel extreme pain and have the wind knocked out of them, and from my own experience, the target's strength/toughness/whateverness doesn't seem to be a factor. Again, that's only my experience. I've had this done to me by my own son, age 3, jumping on my stomach at just the right angle on just the right spot at just the right time. Believe me, the kid did not have a lot of strength, especially compared to me (well, at the time, I was in better shape then).

 

Funnily enough I was going to post one of my diatribes against this particular sfx - I mean it makes some contextual sense for some situations: Johnny Iron Guts (a heroic character) takes a punch from One Shot Maguire (another heroic character), tenses his gut and feels very little.

 

It makes no sense though if the punch is coming from Ogre: Fist of all JIG, no matter how hard he tenses, simply can't make himself tough enough to realistically withstand a blow from Ogre and - even if we agreed he could - what happens tot he considerable knockback - tensing up doesn't make you heavier or better anchored. The same comemnt would apply if the target were GROND - he might be able to tense hard enough to avoid direct damage, but that sfx does not explain where the KB goes...

 

This is even more relevant if JIG is trying to block a blow from Sammy The Stabber, who uses a knife: JIG has no resistant defences....

 

So, in my little world, you can use that justification in limited circumstances, but you can't assume that it works as a universal cure all.

 

Well, there's nothing wrong with the Block mechanic. You can do the same thing with the Dodge mechanic. The SFX of my Dodge is that I become temporarily invulnerable. Attacks that actually hit me potentially struck just before the invulnerability took effect or just after it ended. Yeah me and my Dodge. As for the Block, any GM could say "sorry, this is Grond here, even with your mighty muscle tensing techniques you can't resist the force of this blow, but you can still Block if you say you're just getting out of the way.

 

But let's leave the Block rant for another thread... I think this one is full.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

While there is no "magic" spot' date=' there is a spot where if enough pressure is applied, the target will feel extreme pain and have the wind knocked out of them, and from my own experience, the target's strength/toughness/whateverness doesn't seem to be a factor. Again, that's only my experience. I've had this done to me by my own son, age 3, jumping on my stomach at just the right angle on just the right spot at just the right time. Believe me, the kid did not have a lot of strength, especially compared to me (well, at the time, I was in better shape then).[/quote']

 

Agreed: but you probably weren't tensing

 

If this were defined as an NND nerve strike (with one of the defences being able to prepare for the blow) I'd have no real problem. Ultimately this is just a matter of personal preference and mine is no more valid than anyone else's.

 

............................But let's leave the Block rant for another thread... I think this one is full.

 

Yeah, we wouldn't want to run out of stuff to talk about, would we

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

While there is no "magic" spot' date=' there is a spot where if enough pressure is applied, the target will feel extreme pain and have the wind knocked out of them, and from my own experience, the target's strength/toughness/whateverness doesn't seem to be a factor. Again, that's only my experience. I've had this done to me by my own son, age 3, jumping on my stomach at just the right angle on just the right spot at just the right time. Believe me, the kid did not have a lot of strength, especially compared to me (well, at the time, I was in better shape then).[/quote']

 

How many other people, of various toughness, did your 3 YO son jump on in just the right place to test the theory that physical toughness makes no difference? I'm guessing "zero", but "not very many" seems pretty certain.

 

How many people, of superhuman physical strength and/or toughness, did your 3 YO son jump on in just the right place to test the theory that even superhuman physical toughness makes no difference? I'm pretty confident "none" would be the answer.

 

Do you think that, had he jumped on a goldfish, the godfish would have been unharmed? Goldfish, after all, don't have lungs to be forcibly emptied of air (or water), but I suggest the much lower PD and BOD goldfish would still have perished - taking BOD, not just STUN.

 

Perhaps that effect of having the wind knocked out of you is better put down to a good hit location roll and lots of 5's on the damage roll (not 6's - they increase BOD).

[GAZZA]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Perhaps that effect of having the wind knocked out of you is better put down to a good hit location roll and lots of 5's on the damage roll (not 6's - they increase BOD).

Lots of 5s? How tough is this 3 year old, anyway? I would guess that the average 3yo is probably packing a STR in the -5 to 0 range, so that means if he hits you he actually does negative damage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Lots of 5s? How tough is this 3 year old' date=' anyway? I would guess that the average 3yo is probably packing a STR in the -5 to 0 range, so that means if he hits you he actually does negative damage. [/quote']

 

Actually, he didn't HIT the target, he jumped on them, so he got the benefit of the Falling Damage rules.

 

Not that Hero (or any game) is great at covering all the possible variances of damage from mundane sources. Some people slip and fall (head to floor maybe 5 - 6 feet) and are killed by the impact. Others fall from much greater heights and are basically uninjured. Good luck rolling either in Hero terms.

[casualplayer]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Actually, he didn't HIT the target, he jumped on them, so he got the benefit of the Falling Damage rules.

 

Not that Hero (or any game) is great at covering all the possible variances of damage from mundane sources. Some people slip and fall (head to floor maybe 5 - 6 feet) and are killed by the impact. Others fall from much greater heights and are basically uninjured. Good luck rolling either in Hero terms.

 

Now ChartMaster simulates this extremely well. You can take E Crit damage from putting on your pants in the morning.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Now ChartMaster simulates this extremely well. You can take E Crit damage from putting on your pants in the morning.

 

 

Does the potential vary on character gender?

 

I suppose I should have thought of ChartMaster - the level of detail required to consider all "real world" possibilities (much less the added potential of various forms of fictional universes) means huge amounts of variation must be possible to capture the possibilities. That level of variation does not, at least in my view, make for a good game.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Agreed: but you probably weren't tensing

 

If this were defined as an NND nerve strike (with one of the defences being able to prepare for the blow) I'd have no real problem. Ultimately this is just a matter of personal preference and mine is no more valid than anyone else's.

 

I would think being able to hit the target when he is unprepared is part of the RSR involved. Wait for the moment when he's not tensing and WHAM! If the Skill Roll fails, the side effects occur, which in this case is doing normal damage to the target.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I would think being able to hit the target when he is unprepared is part of the RSR involved. Wait for the moment when he's not tensing and WHAM! If the Skill Roll fails' date=' the side effects occur, which in this case is doing normal damage to the target.[/quote']

 

You may well be right, but I feel I ought to let my opinions have a little lie down in a darkened room: they are getting me into places I'd rather not be at present.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

How many other people, of various toughness, did your 3 YO son jump on in just the right place to test the theory that physical toughness makes no difference? I'm guessing "zero", but "not very many" seems pretty certain.

 

How many people, of superhuman physical strength and/or toughness, did your 3 YO son jump on in just the right place to test the theory that even superhuman physical toughness makes no difference? I'm pretty confident "none" would be the answer.

 

Do you think that, had he jumped on a goldfish, the godfish would have been unharmed? Goldfish, after all, don't have lungs to be forcibly emptied of air (or water), but I suggest the much lower PD and BOD goldfish would still have perished - taking BOD, not just STUN.

 

Perhaps that effect of having the wind knocked out of you is better put down to a good hit location roll and lots of 5's on the damage roll (not 6's - they increase BOD).

 

Now it's not just you, Hugh, but anyone else who wants to get all anal-retentive in how any particular power that comes from a genre where people shoot lasers we can see, jetpacks that don't burn your butt off and where strongmen can pick up a trawler by the end and have it not break in half...

 

If Ogre were to perform this maneuver on a goldfish, and I was the GM at the time, I'd first throw the nearest heavy object at the head of whoever is playing Ogre, then rule that attacking a goldfish with this power incurs a -6 penalty to the RSR. Should Ogre pull it off, yeah, the fish is in a coma. If not, then the fish suffers full 60 STR worth of damage.

 

If Ogre were to perform this maneuver on some with superhuman strength, I wouldn't care. Ogre has superhuman strength. If Ogre were to perform this maneuver on someone of such strength Ogre himself seem like a puny human, I could again impose a penalty to the RSR (those RSRs and Skills in general are funny that way...), or just not care. It doesn't really matter what I do. If there was such a super strong character involved at all, it would definitely be an NPC of some type, possibly define in nature and almost certainly having LS anyway.

 

The bottom line is that this power really does work and you folks just don't like it.