Ogre NND Question

[casualplayer]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I disagree completely. The only thing that's "wrong" about the mechanic of this build is what's listed as the defense of the NND. As I've said before' date=' I never under any circumstances assume what's listed there is an absolute, exhaustive, complete, exclusive list of keeps someone from taking damage. It's an example, based upon SFX, and [i']nothing[/i] more. This goes double, if not triple, for published characters. Due to space limitations on a character sheet (especially a published one), I assume a complete list of what may protect someone isn't something you'd have room to list.

 

If the power is poorly defined, some will figure it out on their own, some will come to the Boards to discuss it and some will go play a different game. Tolerating slop character creation is inviting people to go elsewhere. The topical information doesn't have to be immediately available on the character write-up, but it should be somewhere in concrete terms.

 

I don't have the Ogre write-up, so forgive me if I misrepresent. The power is supposed to be a super-Heimlich? Then there should be more to it than the No Range NND that has been referred to, including more expansive defenses. Some defenses that come to mind are alien anatomy, hard lung covering, size differential disallowing the bearhug, no need for oxygen, malleable physique and winning a STR roll contest with Ogre. The attack should probably have to follow a successful Grab, maybe even two, maybe even a Grab/Crush. MPA would allow ol' Ogre to do all this in a single phase.

 

Dealing out more NND damage than being thrust into vacuum seems a little suspect also. As far as sfx indicating that BODY should start being dealt after STUN is exhausted, like suffocation works, there really should be an intermediate step between NND and NND Does BODY to represent this ability.

 

Could Ogre successfully use this attack on Gargantua? On Hummingbird? On Leech? On ZigZag? On Black Paladin? Inquiring minds want to know.

[KarinsDad]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

And how is this different than pinching off the artery?

...

 

In real world terms, it's different because blood has oxygen in it, even if someone is not breathing. You pinch off the blood supply from the artery and very little if any blood at all gets to the brain.

 

You prevent someone from breathing, their brain still gets a blood flow and hence an oxygen flow, even if that blood starts losing more and more oxygen over time.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Not for that SFX.

 

 

 

No. The fact that SFX does not drive the game at all is a weakness of Hero's.

 

Internal SFX consistency must be driven by the GM, the system does not have internal SFX consistency with exceptions being rare.

 

Instead, exceptions to comic book SFX are the rule.

 

Iceman's ice armor does not melt in great heat unless he writes it that way.

 

Magneto's magnetism does not affect opponents in ferrous metal armor more than non-ferrous composite armors unless he writes it that way.

 

The Human Torch's fire does not disappear in a vacuum or with a fire extinguisher unless he writes it that way.

 

This is a game system weakness.

 

It forces either non-plausible events (i.e. where suspension of disbelief is lost), or GM adjudication where none should be needed.

Play something else then. The Hero System is not for you. Sorry, but that's just the way it is based on what you've just said. The Hero System is about choices. If you don't want to worry about such things, you don't worry. If you want to play an Iceman like character but not melt, you can do so. If you don't, you don't have to. You seem to want to force players to play a melting Iceman whether or not they want to. That's not the Hero System way.

 

You yourself admitted that the defenses for the NND were wrong. But, you somewhat contradict yourself with your own opinion because you also stated "He's specifically bought "enough force" by purchasing this specific Power. Says so right on his character sheet that he has enough force." According to you, if he buys it on his character sheet, than he has it. So if you can disagree on the defenses of the power even though it is written on his character sheet and hence, he has that power as written, than I can disagree with the NND aspect of the power.

 

Otherwise, the "he has it written on his character sheet" argument of yours should take priority over your opinion that the defenses are wrong.

I think I know more about my priorities than you do. Also, I did not say the defense for the NND was wrong, I said it may have been poorly conceived or written, and it definitely not exclusive or exhaustive. At best what is listed is an example and nothing more.

 

I only allow game mechanics that closely match a SFX, not ones that seem to jar with the SFX. I do not allow every possible game mechanic for a given SFX, just because the game system allows for it. For me, SFX is the key, not game mechanics. It appears that you do not hold that same opinion.

 

Well, no, I hold the same opinion, I'm just not as anal-retentive about it as you are, or I'm otherwise more flexible. I realize there is more than one genre, and more than one setting in each genre. I also realize that different players have different tastes and some are willing to put more work into arbitrating the rules of their games, while others are not. So play your way. Your way may not allow for something like the Bearhug maneuver as presented in the Ultimate Brick, but that doesn't mean your way is the only way.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

If the power is poorly defined' date=' some will figure it out on their own, some will come to the Boards to discuss it and some will go play a different game. Tolerating slop character creation is inviting people to go elsewhere. The topical information doesn't have to be immediately available on the character write-up, but it should be somewhere in concrete terms.[/quote']Well, the description of Bearhug is elsewhere in the Ultimate Brick, and it does include a full description of the effect, though it doesn't expand on the mechanical defenses of it. I suppose it should, but it's for a Champions character in the Champions Universe campaign setting, and really should be treated as such. Doing otherwise would be like me judging any of your (or KarinsDad's or anyone else's) characters by the standards of my own campaign world. Apparently the Champions Universe has a very lax requirement on the description of Powers, at least for the defense of an NND. My own campaigns have a different requirement, or at least a different way of handling how to list an NND's defenses. When using Ogre in my campaign, I adjust him to my needs.

 

Out of curiosity, does anyone who's not using the Champions Universe setting for Champions use character publishes for the Champions Universe unmodified?

 

I don't have the Ogre write-up, so forgive me if I misrepresent. The power is supposed to be a super-Heimlich? Then there should be more to it than the No Range NND that has been referred to, including more expansive defenses. Some defenses that come to mind are alien anatomy, hard lung covering, size differential disallowing the bearhug, no need for oxygen, malleable physique and winning a STR roll contest with Ogre. The attack should probably have to follow a successful Grab, maybe even two, maybe even a Grab/Crush. MPA would allow ol' Ogre to do all this in a single phase.

 

Dealing out more NND damage than being thrust into vacuum seems a little suspect also. As far as sfx indicating that BODY should start being dealt after STUN is exhausted, like suffocation works, there really should be an intermediate step between NND and NND Does BODY to represent this ability.

 

Could Ogre successfully use this attack on Gargantua? On Hummingbird? On Leech? On ZigZag? On Black Paladin? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

I think the SFX may be debatable here. I've stated what I think it is, or at least my excuse for why it causes so much damage. Then again, I'm the only one on these boards who's said something matching the effect being simulated has happened to them. Granted, it wasn't by someone with the STR of Ogre, so I can imagine that someone with that could do it had have it hurt a LOT more. Maybe I'm unique in that. I dunno.

 

As far as who can be affected and who can't, I'll have to look up each character and I don't have CKC with me at work. Maybe later today.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Tensing=Block Maneuver. Done.

Larger Than You Target=Since when does size matter in Hero? (this is a different flaw in the rules and actually has nothing to do with Ogre, size really doesn't matter in Hero unless the GM invents campaign specific rules for it).

 

Oh tosh, context is everything. Grond tenses and blocks, Pulsar tenses and smears. one sfx does not fit all.

 

Size does not matter in Hero, it is a reality thing. Hero trusts you to build Hero Characters that are generally stronger if they are bigger. This breaks down a lot in superhero games, but that does not undermine the underlyign point, which I made badly: a strong character is not going to suffer crushing or squeezing damage from a weak one, and Hero does NOT do: NND - can only crush characters with less than 50 STR.

 

 

Sufficent DEF and/or STR can have lots of SFX. Lets say you defined this Bear Hug maneuver defense being PD of X. Okay' date=' so I have a character with a PD of 2X, but the SFX of his PD is "tough, flexible skin" rather than hard armor or an inflexible skeletal structure. By all rights, he should be affected by the bear hug but isn't because he has enough PD. That doesn't fix it. Same thing with STR values. It just doesn't work. The only people who won't be affected are people who can't have air forced from their lungs, or otherwise wouldn't be hurt by it if it happened. And there's your defense, it's just phrased poorly (or incompletely) on Ogre's character sheet.[/quote']

 

Official builds should think it all the way through. That is my only point here. There really is no excuse for slapdash approaches: can't readily be squeezed by someone of Ogre's strength or doesn't matter if he is (GM call).

 

That does it, no problems with space. Even then I don't like it: it is rubbish - having the air forced from your lungs for a few seconds is nothing mre than we all do every few seconds. it is just a poor excuse for an NND.

 

Of course that does not work well with the NND rules - it works on all or nothing, not thresholds, so you can't build it that way, and have it make sense, and if you can't have it make sense you should not build it al all.

 

End

 

Of

 

Story.

 

 

 

Has to what? Has to squeeze and let go, or has to grab and hold his target in order to squeeze at all? In either case, no, Ogre has a choice. He can do either (unless the GM has for some reason banned MPAs, then it's the GMs fault the Power doesn't work as designed, not whoever wrote up Ogre).

 

Note: After looking up the actual character sheet and rereading it, it does say Must Follow Grab, so he does have to grab and hold. Why was someone saying this didn't make sense then? There's also a specific limitation that if he fails his Skill Roll the target takes full damage... he can accidentally crush the kitten. What the hell is everyone arguing over the build vs SFX on this one for? It's all right there!!!

 

Perhaps because not everyone has seent he build and it was not quoted in full?

 

Still doesn't make sense, but at least it makes less nonsense this way.

 

 

 

 

The rule works the same in all circumstances. If the target has the defense' date=' he takes no damage. If the target lacks the defense, he takes damage. The only problem here is a disagreement on what the defense is, or isn't. Just remember Ogre is a published character, and there is limited space available for printing. Of course, I'll admit the possibility the writer didn't think things through or just jumped to an incomplete conclusion... but keep in mind throughout all of this we are really arguing over the validity of single phrase on a character sheet.[/quote']

 

No, the principle we are arguing about is a responsibility to create appropriate sfx and builds. That's important - vital - if a game like Hero is to work.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

No' date=' the principle we are arguing about is a responsibility to create appropriate sfx and builds. That's important - vital - if a game like Hero is to work.[/quote']

 

I'm not disagree with this. I'm absolutely agreeing with it 100%. All I'm saying is that the Bearhug from the Ultimate Brick makes sense, realisticlly and super-realistically. This isn't simple crushing or squeezing. If it was, it would wouldn't have been bought at all because all characters can squeeze or crush after they Grab someone. This is something else, but I don't see anyone here treating it as something else. You included seem to think this is just a clumsy grab and crush thing when it isn't. It isn't even a "super Heimlich" type thing. It's a controlled and deliberate pressure applied to the chest which forces the lungs the expel air in a highly painful way. It's a perfectly valid build, and it perfectly fits the SFX.

 

I don't even know why I'm defending this build anyway. It shouldn't be on Ogre. Many other bricks it would be fine on, but not Ogre. Ogre is too stupid to apply this type of technique correctly, or even think of trying it. But that's a character concept versus powers, not a sfx vs mechanic thing.

[Checkmate]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Not for that SFX.

 

 

 

No. The fact that SFX does not drive the game at all is a weakness of Hero's.

 

Internal SFX consistency must be driven by the GM, the system does not have internal SFX consistency with exceptions being rare.

 

Instead, exceptions to comic book SFX are the rule.

 

Iceman's ice armor does not melt in great heat unless he writes it that way.

 

Magneto's magnetism does not affect opponents in ferrous metal armor more than non-ferrous composite armors unless he writes it that way.

 

The Human Torch's fire does not disappear in a vacuum or with a fire extinguisher unless he writes it that way.

 

This is a game system weakness.

 

It forces either non-plausible events (i.e. where suspension of disbelief is lost), or GM adjudication where none should be needed.

 

If SFX drove the game system as much as game mechanics (as opposed to just game mechanics) where characters could still have exceptions to those SFX (i.e. purchased with advantages or limitations, e.g. Iceman could have super cold ice armor that never melts), it would minimize the "weird stuff" that sometimes happens in a game.

 

 

Just because something can be built in a given way (stretching one's suspension of disbelief) does not mean it should be.

I have to go with Dust-Raven on this. I think you're playing the wrong game. This game was designed specifically NOT to do what you want it to do. You consider this a weakness, everyone else just realizes it's what the original creators had in mind.

 

A better game for what you want may be Fuzion. It had all the powers spelled out and you could easily determine what SFX effets what other SFX and how. You had things like Electrical Blast, Fire Blast, Ice Blast etc.

 

Suffocation as an attack has always been an NND. Look at Martial Arts, Choke Hold is an NND. Look in USPD, Remove air from lungs is an NND. It's how the "Powers That Be" at HERO have decided to do these types of attacks. You don't agree with it, it doesn't work for you, great change it in your game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I disagree that the creators thought Oger needed an NND so the fabricated the SFX. I think they looked at Martial Arts (that no one seemed to have a problem with) and saw that choke hold is an NND and it's basically the same SFX.

 

Now I've heard the argument that you're actually pinching off the artey, and that's why it's an NND, but let's analyze that argument for a moment shall we?

 

What does closing off that artery actually do?

Well it stops the flow of blood to the brain.

Why do we need blood to the brain?

Well blood carries oxygen to the brain cells

(If you're thinkin' you probably know where I'm going with this)

And where does the blood get this oxygen it carries to the brain?

From the lungs of course.

And if the lungs don't have oxygen in them?

Well then the blood can't deliver it to the brain.

And how is this different than pinching off the artery?

...

 

Breathe out, empty your lungs.

 

Count to 12, slowly.

 

Breathe normally again.

 

Did you take 6d6 NND?

 

Any NND at all? No, and that was a full turn.

 

Stop the bloodflow to the brain and you'll be unconscious in seconds, but the blood acts as a resevoir of oxygen for the body that can keep you alive and conscious, even without air in your lungs, for a surprisingly long time.

 

The sfx simply do not work.

 

Change it to a jugular pinch and we are cooking with gas. Even then the defence ought to be a rigid neck protection, or casual strength equal to Ogre's full strength (but you can't do that with NND), or non-standard biology or physiology.

 

I am of the opinion that for Hero to work, the sfx have to be consistent and appropriate.

 

.......................I don't even know why I'm defending this build anyway. It shouldn't be on Ogre. Many other bricks it would be fine on' date=' but not Ogre. Ogre is too stupid to apply this type of technique correctly, or even think of trying it. But that's a character concept versus powers, not a sfx vs mechanic thing.[/quote']

 

Sometimes I don't see the wood for the trees This is a very good point: Orge is a slugger, and whilst that is a problem of a different type, it is still sfx related: the power has to be related to the concept through sfx as much as it has to be expressed in game through sfx.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Breathe out, empty your lungs.

 

Count to 12, slowly.

 

Breathe normally again.

 

Did you take 6d6 NND?

 

Any NND at all? No, and that was a full turn.

 

I still think you've got the SFX completely wrong here. Someone with the Bearhug power isn't picking you up, holding a stethoscope to your chest and asking you to breathe out, then forgetting to ask you to breathe in again. He's forcing the air out at high speed, which causes pain/discomfort/shock (to the point of taking a lot of STUN).

[KarinsDad]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I still think you've got the SFX completely wrong here. Someone with the Bearhug power isn't picking you up' date=' holding a stethoscope to your chest and asking you to breathe out, then forgetting to ask you to breathe in again. He's forcing the air out at high speed, which causes pain/discomfort/shock (to the point of taking a lot of STUN).[/quote']

 

I still think you've got the SFX completely wrong here.

 

Ogre does this to Grond and Grond laughs at him.

 

Ogre does this to a normal and his chest does not cave in.

 

Oh, I forgot. This is a game mechanic driving the SFX, not the other way around. Nevermind. Anything's possible if one ignores the SFX and just writes up a stupid game mechanic.

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Speaking as a moderator, the first rule in the ROC is respect each other. The tone of some posts in this thread is becoming unnecessarily personal. Please keep things friendly and civil, or appropriate action will be taken.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Speaking as a moderator' date='[/b'] the first rule in the ROC is respect each other. The tone of some posts in this thread is becoming unnecessarily personal. Please keep things friendly and civil, or appropriate action will be taken.

 

Appropriate action has been taken. I'm done here.

 

[feralucce]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Thank you for that, moderator... I was beginning to think that snark was out of season

[Checkmate]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Breathe out, empty your lungs.

 

Count to 12, slowly.

 

Breathe normally again.

 

Did you take 6d6 NND?

 

Any NND at all? No, and that was a full turn.

Except you can't breath out and totally empty your lungs, so we'll never know. However, try this: empty out as much of lungs as you can, then jump off the kitchen counter and do a belly flop on the back of a chair, to simulate a couple of strong hands thrusting into your solarplexes, then measure amount of STUN taken.

 

But even that isn't the real point: NND's are the way HERO does suffocation attacks. It's in the USPD under air control, which has nothing to do with Ogre needing an NND.

[GAZZA]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

So therefore, how should suffocation attacks be done? Assuming that it is felt there is a problem with them, how do we improve this?

 

Some sort of Suppress for STUN, and Drain on REC, perhaps? (Aside: I assume if I drain STUN I'm draining the current value instead of the maximum, so your normal REC recovers it - is this wrong? I hope so, because if I'm right about this Drain STUN is a spectacularly inefficient power). That way you're slowly losing your ability to stay conscious (thanks to the silly but RAW way you can stack Suppresses) as well as finding it harder to take a breath (which REC seems to represent, as a sort of "second wind").

 

Does that look a little better?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Suffocation is an ability that needs to be reviewed. The ability to force someone into the drowning rules isn't worth the cost of a Suppress to wipe out all REC and the 1 point per phase END drain. It's a pretty common ability in the source material, but poorly effected in the game.

 

Admittedly, part of this is that gamers won't want to play out the extended time period required for a suffocating character to finally keel over. It's a tough ability to translate from the source material to a game environment.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

To force someone to suffer the effects of Suffocation as per how it's described under Drowning, I'd use Change Environment (no breathable air), perhaps with only a 1 hex area and a -0 Accurate if it's to affect a single target. Combine this a Continuous TK Affects Whole Target, Cannot Cause Damage attack in an MPA and you can even simulate them being forced to stand there and choke helplessly for a while.

[pinecone]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

To force someone to suffer the effects of Suffocation as per how it's described under Drowning' date=' I'd use Change Environment (no breathable air), perhaps with only a 1 hex area and a -0 Accurate if it's to affect a single target. Combine this a Continuous TK Affects Whole Target, Cannot Cause Damage attack in an MPA and you can even simulate them being forced to stand there and choke helplessly for a while.[/quote']

 

I'd agree...CE is the way I'd aproach "I fill the room with CO2" all the way to "He can't breath, because of X"...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I'd agree...CE is the way I'd aproach "I fill the room with CO2" all the way to "He can't breath' date=' because of X"...[/quote']

 

Yeah. Not breathing is pretty much a non-effect in combat anyway, unless the combat is prolonged to two Turns or more, and even then only if the character normally uses a lot of END. I do like the effect of making people hold still and make uncontrollable choking sounds though. It just seems to much a part of the sfx of making someone not breathe.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Except you can't breath out and totally empty your lungs, so we'll never know. However, try this: empty out as much of lungs as you can, then jump off the kitchen counter and do a belly flop on the back of a chair, to simulate a couple of strong hands thrusting into your solarplexes, then measure amount of STUN taken.

 

But even that isn't the real point: NND's are the way HERO does suffocation attacks. It's in the USPD under air control, which has nothing to do with Ogre needing an NND.

 

Being the way that it is done does not mean that it is a good way to do it.

 

I tell you what: you do a belly flop onto the back of a chair and tell me if it did any Body damage. Or try the same thing with a suit of armour on - no damage at all.

 

The point is that it doesn't do what it says on the tin.

 

Suffocation in Hero (i.e. looking at teh suffocation rules) is just not quick enough to be meaningful in terms of damage taken during the average combat. The biggest single effect is that it stops you taking recoveries, which should probably be done with a REC adjustment, to be fair to all concerned.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I'd like to see an official adder for Change Environment, Entangle and Force Wall to prevent the target(s) from breathing. The classic comic book examples, to me, are the guys who remove the air from the area (CE), block the character's ability to breathe with a substance (Entangle) or create a force wall (Sue Richards comes to mind) cutting off the air.

 

I think the best suggestion I've ever seen in this regard was to base the cost on suppressing "Life Support: Oxygen Rich Environment breathing". By the time advantages and limitations were pulled in, I think a 10 or 15 point adder seemed about right. That also feels right for the effectiveness of the ability.

[pinecone]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I'd like to see an official adder for Change Environment, Entangle and Force Wall to prevent the target(s) from breathing. The classic comic book examples, to me, are the guys who remove the air from the area (CE), block the character's ability to breathe with a substance (Entangle) or create a force wall (Sue Richards comes to mind) cutting off the air.

 

I think the best suggestion I've ever seen in this regard was to base the cost on suppressing "Life Support: Oxygen Rich Environment breathing". By the time advantages and limitations were pulled in, I think a 10 or 15 point adder seemed about right. That also feels right for the effectiveness of the ability.

 

Yeah, or in the meantime, stick a CE: No air! To the force wall and Viola! A wacky effect...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Suffocation in Hero (i.e. looking at teh suffocation rules) is just not quick enough to be meaningful in terms of damage taken during the average combat. The biggest single effect is that it stops you taking recoveries' date=' which should probably be done with a REC adjustment, to be fair to all concerned.[/quote']

 

I still insist you are confusing suffocation with having the air squeezed from your lungs. Both make it difficult to get oxygen to your brain, but the latter also HURTS LIKE HELL.

 

I also still insist that while there is nothing wrong with the write-up of the power, Ogre is simply lacks the finesse, intelligence and restraint necessary to pull something like this off. He should have instead:

 

Oops: HA: +8d6, HA, NNC (typically when Ogre is trying to be delicate).

[Checkmate]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Being the way that it is done does not mean that it is a good way to do it.

Actually it is the absoulte crux of my argument.

 

People have claimed (not saying you, you may or may not have made this claim) that the power we "reversed engineered" saying that the creators said "We need to give Ogre an NND, what can we use to justify this?". I disagree with that line of reasoning, because a brick crushing the air out of someone's lungs is very "in genre". This is the way HERO has decided to do this effect. I believe if, for some reason, HERO said a 1d6HKA was the effect of removing air from lungs, Ogre would have that. I believe they simply said, "We want Ogre to be able crush the air out of lungs, what have we used for that?" as opposed to what others think happened "We want Ogre to have an NND how can we justify that?"

 

Whether you agree with it or not is totally up to you, change what you don't like, but like Dust-Raven and I said in my falling from a tree example, having the air forced out of your lungs by impact HURTS, so I'm all right with the NND.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Yeah' date=' or in the meantime, stick a CE: No air! To the force wall and Viola! A wacky effect...[/quote']

 

Doesn't work.

 

CE: Harmful environment

 

You build the harm with points: damage, falling over unless you DEX roll, whatever. you can't just say: right, I've changed the environment, you're all now breeathing chlorine gas and you are DEAD!. Ditto removing air. It sounds like it should work, there have even been writeups doing at that way. Clearly noone read the rule book though.