Ogre NND Question

[Enforcer84]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

yeah he has to crush the scuba tank. It saves yer nostrils.

hmmm I came in later than I thought on this one.

 

Anyway: Bearhug NND: sure, why not. Or...no, don't like it. Over analysis leads to bitter arguments over nothing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

SCUBA tanks are a Focus, and an accessible one at that. So, no, they don't grant protection against this kind of NND. They would against gas attacks and stuff, but not the crush the air out of your lungs (or squish the lungs our of your nose) attacks.

 

 

I'm not sure that being a focus is a problem: I mean, presumably if you were encased in a rigid power armour suit that provided LS, you'd be OK. Mind you it is also logical that if you have shapeshift you could probably avoid the effects, or if you have something on that provides chest protection that Ogre can't crush (i.e. even if the power armour DIDN'T provide LS, it doesn't make much sense that Ogre can crush it sufficient to drive the air from your lungs without damaging it at all). Or, presumably if you were stronger than Ogre, or big enough that he couldn't get his arms round your chest, or...

 

I stick by my contention that poorly thought out sfx are the bane of Hero.

 

I'm not saying this power can't be build - you can, it is easy, but I am saying that you really need to properly consider the sfx if you are going to. SFX are not a colour wash applied at the end of the construction process, they are an integral part of the construction process, or should be.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

But this is assuming that a meticulous, logical mapping of game mechanic effect to SFX is a goal desired by the parties involved in the actual game. For some gamers (including groups I'm familiar with) that degree of verisimilitude would be neither needed nor desired.

 

It's only a flaw of character design if the people using said character consider it a flaw. If they do it can easily be changed to something more logical, as has been pointed out here.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

But this is assuming that a meticulous, logical mapping of game mechanic effect to SFX is a goal desired by the parties involved in the actual game. For some gamers (including groups I'm familiar with) that degree of verisimilitude would be neither needed nor desired.

 

It's only a flaw of character design if the people using said character consider it a flaw. If they do it can easily be changed to something more logical, as has been pointed out here.

 

I'd not be half so critical if it was not an official Hero System character.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

That's your right, of course. Personally I have no problem with the build, and it being "official" has no bearing on how I feel about it. I've changed more official stuff for my own games over the years than I can count.

 

I'm prepared to say that I don't like or agree with how some things have been built in published books. I wouldn't necessarily tell anyone who did agree with them that they're wrong. Not that I'm saying you're doing that!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

That's your right, of course. Personally I have no problem with the build, and it being "official" has no bearing on how I feel about it. I've changed more official stuff for my own games over the years than I can count.

 

I'm prepared to say that I don't like or agree with how some things have been built in published books. I wouldn't necessarily tell anyone who did agree with them that they're wrong. Not that I'm saying you're doing that!

 

I just think that published materials are an opportunity to show Hero in its very best light, for those less experienced with the game. Well, for everyone, actually.

 

This power can be made to work, or changed to work, but it doesn't really do what it claims to. It is a damaging power with a pretty spurious explanation. It makes the character more combat efficient, in case Ogre is fighting someone with such high pd that even he is not getting through, but that is no reason at all to have the power on the character sheet.

 

I'm being over critical, I'm sure, but this is an example of something that just is not carefully enough crafted for my tastes.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I just think that published materials are an opportunity to show Hero in its very best light, for those less experienced with the game. Well, for everyone, actually.

 

This power can be made to work, or changed to work, but it doesn't really do what it claims to. It is a damaging power with a pretty spurious explanation. It makes the character more combat efficient, in case Ogre is fighting someone with such high pd that even he is not getting through, but that is no reason at all to have the power on the character sheet.

 

I'm being over critical, I'm sure, but this is an example of something that just is not carefully enough crafted for my tastes.

 

Yes, you're being overly critical.

 

It's not that the Power can be made to work or changed to work. It works. It can be made, or used in a way, in which it doesn't work, or doesn't make sense. Not really an issue for me. It's also on a Champions character, a genre most known for its physics and reason defying abilities. I certainly wouldn't allow a Dark Champions character to have this, nor a Fantasy Hero or Star Hero character. Maybe a wild martial arts Ninja Hero character, but on a Champions character I can't really question it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Yes, you're being overly critical.

 

It's not that the Power can be made to work or changed to work. It works. It can be made, or used in a way, in which it doesn't work, or doesn't make sense. Not really an issue for me. It's also on a Champions character, a genre most known for its physics and reason defying abilities. I certainly wouldn't allow a Dark Champions character to have this, nor a Fantasy Hero or Star Hero character. Maybe a wild martial arts Ninja Hero character, but on a Champions character I can't really question it.

 

It works on a mechanical level, and that's all.

 

It doesn't even reflect the flimsy level of reality we find in comics. Not ones that anyone would buy more than once. And that is very much my point.

 

I mean, you might have gotten away with it in the 1930s, but a lot has changed since then

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I suspect the discussion has reached one of those "agree to disagree" points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I suspect the discussion has reached one of those "agree to disagree" points.

 

I suspect you are a right, but I've never really trusted my suspicions. I'm too suspicious to be right all the time

[KarinsDad]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I'm being over critical, I'm sure, but this is an example of something that just is not carefully enough crafted for my tastes.

 

I do not think you are being overly critical.

 

This appears to be a power looking for a SFX. At least to me.

 

The power works mechanically, but why?

 

Me: "What's the SFX?"

 

Designer of Power: "Well, it's sort of, kind of, a little bit of, a way to drive the air out of the opponent's lungs."

 

Me: "Why doesn't PD stop it?"

 

Designer of Power: "Well, mechanically, it is made to avoid PD. SFX-wise, err, ahh, well, ..."

[Reality Czech]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I do not think you are being overly critical.

 

This appears to be a power looking for a SFX. At least to me.

 

The power works mechanically, but why?

 

Me: "What's the SFX?"

 

Designer of Power: "Well, it's sort of, kind of, a little bit of, a way to drive the air out of the opponent's lungs."

 

Me: "Why doesn't PD stop it?"

 

Designer of Power: "Well, mechanically, it is made to avoid PD. SFX-wise, err, ahh, well, ..."

 

I think this basically nails the issue in any reality vs. mechanics conflict. If the player and GM can't agree on a SFX justification for the power/effect as written, it needs to be re-written to satisfy. The crux of this is it's an agreement between one GM and (probably) one player and that's all. If looking at Ogre's NND attack dosen't allow you to suspend disbelief, then it's inadequately written. At the end of the day, either you choose to accept it or you don't.

 

In Jurassic Park, dinosaurs were running around eating people, which most would agree is unrealistic (There are currently no dinosaurs in real life), but for the purposes of the movie it was acceptable. Disbelief was suspended. Now imagine the heroes are cornered by a T-Rex and a flying saucer hovers down and vaporizes the T-Rex. Most people would have a problem with this in a Jurassic Park movie because it's not consistent with the agreed-upon reality of the movie; but if none of the audience complained (Hard to imagine this, but just for example) there'd be no issue. The arrival of a flying saucer is no more "unrealistic" than the presence of the T-Rex, so provided everyone agrees the flying saucer's arrival is a palatable event, arguing the "realism" of the event is unnecessary.

 

Note I don't say arguing it is useless, stupid, a waste of time, etc. I only state that it's unnecessary.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

It works on a mechanical level, and that's all.

 

It doesn't even reflect the flimsy level of reality we find in comics. Not ones that anyone would buy more than once. And that is very much my point.

 

I mean, you might have gotten away with it in the 1930s, but a lot has changed since then

 

Yeah, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. I think it represents a potential aspect of reality, though perhaps a cinematic reality, and it definitely represents a superheroic reality. Used all by itself, it represents a quick squeeze and let go. It does and represents exactly what it's mechanics says it does, and there it nothing really unrealistic about it unless someone is making unreasonable assumptions about what else it should do. And even then, if you want to use it with those elses (actually grabs and perhaps maintains a grab on the target, also crushes the target for additional physical damage, etc), just MPA with the Grab maneuver.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I do not think you are being overly critical.

 

This appears to be a power looking for a SFX. At least to me.

 

The power works mechanically, but why?

 

Me: "What's the SFX?"

 

Designer of Power: "Well, it's sort of, kind of, a little bit of, a way to drive the air out of the opponent's lungs."

 

Me: "Why doesn't PD stop it?"

 

Designer of Power: "Well, mechanically, it is made to avoid PD. SFX-wise, err, ahh, well, ..."

 

Designer of Power's actual answer (or well, what my answer would be if I was the designer): "Because it doesn't matter how resilient a target is to ordinary damage, they aren't physically being damaged, they are just having all the air shoved out of their lungs and that frickin' hurts."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Designer of Power's actual answer (or well' date=' what my answer would be if I was the designer): "Because it doesn't matter how resilient a target is to ordinary damage, they aren't physically being damaged, they are just having all the air shoved out of their lungs and that frickin' [i']hurts[/i]."

 

If we agreed to disagree none of us would be here.

 

Having all the air shoved out of your lungs doesn't hurt. Having your rib cage crushed so that your ribs are bent in to crush your lungs hurts. Getting a blow to the sternum that temporarily paralyses the diaphragm so that you can't breathe is painful but more importantly is likely to induce panic. The thing is that crushing someone is not, by any any stretch of the imagination, an NND attack. It is a contest of arm strength against body strength, taking into account the internal structure of your opponent and any rigid external defences. There are clear and obvious defences which are certainly not all or nothing. The right way to do this is a grab and squeeze. You can be without air for minutes before you start taking any real damage. Certainly a phase will trouble your stun total not at all. The volume of air in your lungs is utterly irrelevant.

 

You can determine any level of reality you like for the games you are in, but, frankly, most of us are not that dedicated. What I do, and I imagine what the vast majority of people do, is assume we are playing in the real world but we've added superheroes and supervillains and such. I don't change the underlying physics. Even if you do, though, and have a 4 colour world, let me tell you what is utterly unbelieveable about this power, no matter what level of reality you are taking it on:

 

If Ogre bearhugs Mega Armoured Super Strong (MASS) he does the same amount of damage as if he'd bearhugged Naked Weak No Defence Chap With The Same STUN As MASS (NWNDCWTSSAM).

 

That's assuming that Ogre can do the same thing to the two characters, which is the first unrealistic assumption (I'm figuring it is going to be a lot harder to drive the air from Grond's lungs), and it is assuming that that big bearhug does exactly the same both of them, which presumably means that he stops with NWNDCWTSSAM at the point where all the air has gone, and doesn't simply crush him.

 

Yes you can MP with a grab and squeeze, but the power is not built so that you have to. I mean if we can add in additional requirements to make the thing realistic, we can build it more realistically to start off with.

 

Quick question, for those who think that this kind of half hearted rationalisation (Deliberately inflammatory? Me?) is acceptable in a game that wants to be taken seriously:

 

What happens when Ogre NNDs Defender, whose chest is encased in rigid armour? Now Defender (IIRC, and if I don't, let us assume...) has LS (sealed systems breathing), so presumably nothing happens. Now if Defender takes his helmet off (i.e. he's switched off the LS but kept the armour on), and Ogre tries the same thing, suddenly he takes the damage?

 

What, from anything but a mechanical POV, has changed?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

If we agreed to disagree none of us would be here.

I said agree to disagree, not agree to not argue about it.

 

Having all the air shoved out of your lungs doesn't hurt.

You have obviously never had "the fat guy" sit on you during recess. Exhaling doesn't hurt, even holding your breath doesn't hurt. But having all that air shoved out all at once hurts. A lot. Trust me. The fat guy sat on me. And I didn't take any physical damage. Maybe I have a really high PD, but I doubt it.

 

Granted, I wasn't anywhere near knocked out, but I was at least Stunned, and the fat guy didn't even sit on my long, maybe what I'd call a single Phase, maybe less. I'd say maybe the fat guy had bought Sit on People: EB 3d6 NND (LS: SCB), No Range.

 

If Ogre bearhugs Mega Armoured Super Strong (MASS) he does the same amount of damage as if he'd bearhugged Naked Weak No Defence Chap With The Same STUN As MASS (NWNDCWTSSAM).

 

That's assuming that Ogre can do the same thing to the two characters, which is the first unrealistic assumption (I'm figuring it is going to be a lot harder to drive the air from Grond's lungs), and it is assuming that that big bearhug does exactly the same both of them, which presumably means that he stops with NWNDCWTSSAM at the point where all the air has gone, and doesn't simply crush him.

 

Well, it's not my fault is the defense of the NND is poorly decided. It should read "no need to breathe or crush-proof lungs" or something like that. Though it should have the exact same effect on Grond as it would have on a normal. The difference is that the normal will be knocked out and Grond won't even be Stunned. I'm sure you'd think at least that makes sense.

 

Yes you can MP with a grab and squeeze, but the power is not built so that you have to. I mean if we can add in additional requirements to make the thing realistic, we can build it more realistically to start off with.

I fail to see the problem. Why can't Ogre just squeeze real quick and let go? Or why should Ogre be force to grab and maintain a hold on his target? What's unrealistic about the way it's built? I find nothing wrong it it (well, duh, otherwise I wouldn't be disagreeing with you).

 

Quick question, for those who think that this kind of half hearted rationalisation (Deliberately inflammatory? Me?) is acceptable in a game that wants to be taken seriously:

 

What happens when Ogre NNDs Defender, whose chest is encased in rigid armour? Now Defender (IIRC, and if I don't, let us assume...) has LS (sealed systems breathing), so presumably nothing happens. Now if Defender takes his helmet off (i.e. he's switched off the LS but kept the armour on), and Ogre tries the same thing, suddenly he takes the damage?

 

What, from anything but a mechanical POV, has changed?

 

The only thing that has changed is how the GM has ruled the Power works. Personally, I've always treated the defense for NNDs very loosely and rarely literly. In official write-ups, I've taken what's listed as an example of a likely defense, but not an absolute and exclusive list. Maybe that's just me, but I've yet to hear a complaint from one of my players (though a few have raised an eyebrow at me).

[KarinsDad]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Designer of Power's actual answer (or well' date=' what my answer would be if I was the designer): "Because it doesn't matter how resilient a target is to ordinary damage, they aren't physically being damaged, they are just having all the air shoved out of their lungs and that frickin' [i']hurts[/i]."

 

Have your 4 year old daughter try to drive the air out of your lungs and tell me how much it hurts.

 

The SFX of Ogre's power is fine. It's the build that is faulty.

 

It should hurt Joe Martial Artist, but it should barely bother Joe Tank.

 

The fact that the game mechanics of that power has it hurt Joe Tank as much as it hurts Joe Martial Artist and it doesn't bother Joe Scuba Diver at all is why it is faulty.

 

The power in no way shape or form matches the SFX. It is just a "cool game mechanic idea" on an attack that avoids PD, but shouldn't.

 

 

Now, a SFX that matches the power might be a gas attack that affects anyone who does not need to breathe. But, not a bear hug. Bear hugs are physical attacks and physical attacks generally should be minimized by physical defenses.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I said agree to disagree' date=' not agree to not argue about it. [/quote']

 

Touche

 

 

You have obviously never had "the fat guy" sit on you during recess. Exhaling doesn't hurt, even holding your breath doesn't hurt. But having all that air shoved out all at once hurts. A lot. Trust me. The fat guy sat on me. And I didn't take any physical damage. Maybe I have a really high PD, but I doubt it.

 

Granted, I wasn't anywhere near knocked out, but I was at least Stunned, and the fat guy didn't even sit on my long, maybe what I'd call a single Phase, maybe less. I'd say maybe the fat guy had bought Sit on People: EB 3d6 NND (LS: SCB), No Range.

 

I've played enough judo that I know it can be painful to be crushed, but I alos know that the effect is not an NND: if I'm expecting it and tense, then it doesn't hurt so much, and if the guy is a lot smaller, ditto.

 

 

 

Well' date=' it's not my fault is the defense of the NND is poorly decided. It should read "no need to breathe or crush-proof lungs" or something like that. Though it should have the exact same effect on Grond as it would have on a normal. The difference is that the normal will be knocked out and Grond won't even be Stunned. I'm sure you'd think at least that makes sense.[/quote']

 

This was why my example above had two characetrs with the same STUN total but wildly different DEF and STR.

 

Now what is 'crush proof'?

 

I mean Ogre would have a job crushing Grond, at least with any speed, and the fact that the defence is poorly constructed is my central thesis. If Defender can't be crushed with his helmet on but can with his helmet off then the power makes no sense at all, and if he can't be crushed with his helmet off then presumably sufficient DEF and/or STR should be a sufficient defence (although NND doesn't work like that, it doesn't do thresholds)

 

 

I fail to see the problem. Why can't Ogre just squeeze real quick and let go? Or why should Ogre be force to grab and maintain a hold on his target? What's unrealistic about the way it's built? I find nothing wrong it it (well' date=' duh, otherwise I wouldn't be disagreeing with you).[/quote']

 

 

Ogre can. Ogre has to.

 

 

 

 

The only thing that has changed is how the GM has ruled the Power works. Personally' date=' I've always treated the defense for NNDs very loosely and rarely literly. In official write-ups, I've taken what's listed as an example of a likely defense, but not an absolute and exclusive list. Maybe that's just me, but I've yet to hear a complaint from one of my players (though a few have raised an eyebrow at me).[/quote']

 

There is not a system out there that a good GM can not make an enjoyable experience by papering voer the cracks and ignoring the bits that do not suit. Int his case the problem arises not from the system but the character construction and rationalle. The GM can put that right too, but the GM shouldn't have to. If it is necessary to re-imagine how a rule works on a consistent basis, then perhaps it would be best to simply re-write the rule and have done?

[Reality Czech]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

....

 

There is not a system out there that a good GM can not make an enjoyable experience by papering voer the cracks and ignoring the bits that do not suit.

 

Agreed.

 

In this case the problem arises not from the system but the character construction and rationalle. The GM can put that right too, but the GM shouldn't have to. If it is necessary to re-imagine how a rule works on a consistent basis, then perhaps it would be best to simply re-write the rule and have done?

Yup, to me the best thing to do with any power/effect is to write it as completely, concisely, and fairly as possible with the intent of preventing the constant need for judgement calls. We all know you'll never preclude all questions, but the better you write the power the less time and effort you waste during play adjudicating effects.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Have your 4 year old daughter try to drive the air out of your lungs and tell me how much it hurts.

 

The SFX of Ogre's power is fine. It's the build that is faulty.

 

It should hurt Joe Martial Artist, but it should barely bother Joe Tank.

 

The fact that the game mechanics of that power has it hurt Joe Tank as much as it hurts Joe Martial Artist and it doesn't bother Joe Scuba Diver at all is why it is faulty.

 

The power in no way shape or form matches the SFX. It is just a "cool game mechanic idea" on an attack that avoids PD, but shouldn't.

 

 

Now, a SFX that matches the power might be a gas attack that affects anyone who does not need to breathe. But, not a bear hug. Bear hugs are physical attacks and physical attacks generally should be minimized by physical defenses.

 

I disagree completely. The only thing that's "wrong" about the mechanic of this build is what's listed as the defense of the NND. As I've said before, I never under any circumstances assume what's listed there is an absolute, exhaustive, complete, exclusive list of keeps someone from taking damage. It's an example, based upon SFX, and nothing more. This goes double, if not triple, for published characters. Due to space limitations on a character sheet (especially a published one), I assume a complete list of what may protect someone isn't something you'd have room to list.

 

It's recently come to my attention, or at least my sudden realization, other people don't play this way.

 

To specifically respond to your note about it affecting Joe Martial Artist but not Joe Brick... why? I don't get why they should be treated differently. Unless noted otherwise, they both have lungs and need to breathe air, and that air can be forcefully shoved out with enough force. Ogre has a Power stating he has that level of force. You might be thinking that a really strong character will have the physical strength to keep his lungs full of air, but keep in mind that Ogre is also a "really strong" character. Also, as you yourself noted, it doesn't take a lot of strength to knock the wind from someone in a painful way (4 year old daughter vs adult).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Touche

 

I've played enough judo that I know it can be painful to be crushed, but I alos know that the effect is not an NND: if I'm expecting it and tense, then it doesn't hurt so much, and if the guy is a lot smaller, ditto.

Tensing=Block Maneuver. Done.

Larger Than You Target=Since when does size matter in Hero? (this is a different flaw in the rules and actually has nothing to do with Ogre, size really doesn't matter in Hero unless the GM invents campaign specific rules for it).

 

This was why my example above had two characetrs with the same STUN total but wildly different DEF and STR.

 

Now what is 'crush proof'?

 

I mean Ogre would have a job crushing Grond, at least with any speed, and the fact that the defence is poorly constructed is my central thesis. If Defender can't be crushed with his helmet on but can with his helmet off then the power makes no sense at all, and if he can't be crushed with his helmet off then presumably sufficient DEF and/or STR should be a sufficient defence (although NND doesn't work like that, it doesn't do thresholds)

Sufficent DEF and/or STR can have lots of SFX. Lets say you defined this Bear Hug maneuver defense being PD of X. Okay, so I have a character with a PD of 2X, but the SFX of his PD is "tough, flexible skin" rather than hard armor or an inflexible skeletal structure. By all rights, he should be affected by the bear hug but isn't because he has enough PD. That doesn't fix it. Same thing with STR values. It just doesn't work. The only people who won't be affected are people who can't have air forced from their lungs, or otherwise wouldn't be hurt by it if it happened. And there's your defense, it's just phrased poorly (or incompletely) on Ogre's character sheet.

 

Ogre can. Ogre has to.

Has to what? Has to squeeze and let go, or has to grab and hold his target in order to squeeze at all? In either case, no, Ogre has a choice. He can do either (unless the GM has for some reason banned MPAs, then it's the GMs fault the Power doesn't work as designed, not whoever wrote up Ogre).

 

Note: After looking up the actual character sheet and rereading it, it does say Must Follow Grab, so he does have to grab and hold. Why was someone saying this didn't make sense then? There's also a specific limitation that if he fails his Skill Roll the target takes full damage... he can accidentally crush the kitten. What the hell is everyone arguing over the build vs SFX on this one for? It's all right there!!!

 

 

There is not a system out there that a good GM can not make an enjoyable experience by papering voer the cracks and ignoring the bits that do not suit. Int his case the problem arises not from the system but the character construction and rationalle. The GM can put that right too, but the GM shouldn't have to. If it is necessary to re-imagine how a rule works on a consistent basis, then perhaps it would be best to simply re-write the rule and have done?

 

The rule works the same in all circumstances. If the target has the defense, he takes no damage. If the target lacks the defense, he takes damage. The only problem here is a disagreement on what the defense is, or isn't. Just remember Ogre is a published character, and there is limited space available for printing. Of course, I'll admit the possibility the writer didn't think things through or just jumped to an incomplete conclusion... but keep in mind throughout all of this we are really arguing over the validity of single phrase on a character sheet.

[KarinsDad]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

To specifically respond to your note about it affecting Joe Martial Artist but not Joe Brick... why? I don't get why they should be treated differently. Unless noted otherwise, they both have lungs and need to breathe air, and that air can be forcefully shoved out with enough force. Ogre has a Power stating he has that level of force.

 

That is the key. You yourself has stated it.

 

"With enough force."

 

I do not think Ogre has enough force to do this to Grond at the same level as he does for a normal person. The problem with the NND game mechanic is that it affects both types of characters equally.

 

Ogre probably has enough force to do it to Joe Martial Artist, but Joe Brick should be more resistant to it and Grond even more so. Joe Scuba Diver should be crushed by such an attack by Ogre, not be immune to it.

 

But as written, Grond and Joe Brick both take 6D6 and Joe Scuba Diver takes nothing.

 

And changing the defenses (without listing PD or potentially rPD as one of them) does not change this.

 

The SFX does not match the power writeup. PD should defend against this SFX.

 

Strong opponents and heavily armored opponents should take little or no damage from a fast bear hug intended to drive the air out of the lungs.

 

A fast bear hug really sounds little different than a normal grab and squeeze.

 

This writeup is just about avoiding PD and has nothing to do with the SFX of a bear hug.

 

 

One of the problems with Hero is that just because an idea can be thought of does not mean that it is a good idea. Especially when the Game Mechanic drives the SFX and not the other way around.

 

 

A different way to handle this is to give Ogre extra HHA damage only usable to squeeze. That would match this SFX a lot closer than an NND. The NND build is just trying to take advantage of game mechanics to avoid PD. IMO.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

That is the key. You yourself has stated it.

 

"With enough force."

 

I do not think Ogre has enough force to do this to Grond at the same level as he does for a normal person. The problem with the NND game mechanic is that it affects both types of characters equally.

I think he does have enough force. He's specifically bought "enough force" by purchasing this specific Power. Says so right on his character sheet that he has enough force.

 

Ogre probably has enough force to do it to Joe Martial Artist, but Joe Brick should be more resistant to it and Grond even more so. Joe Scuba Diver should be crushed by such an attack by Ogre, not be immune to it.

 

But as written, Grond and Joe Brick both take 6D6 and Joe Scuba Diver takes nothing.

 

And changing the defenses (without listing PD or potentially rPD as one of them) does not change this.

 

The SFX does not match the power writeup. PD should defend against this SFX.

I disagree. What you are basically saying is that you think NND shouldn't be on there. Then again, maybe you just think what Ogre is doing is impossible. So what? His level of physical strength is impossible. Why stop there? He's in a world where people have impossible powers. But that's just with your own assumption what he's doing is impossible (hurting someone without causing lasting damage by forcing air out their lungs). I think it is possible... it's happened to me. Maybe we just have different life experiences.

 

As far as the SCUBA diver, no he should not be crushed, but he should take damage. He did buy his LS with a Limitation after all. This would qualify as circumstance where his LS doesn't work/doesn't protect him.

 

Strong opponents and heavily armored opponents should take little or no damage from a fast bear hug intended to drive the air out of the lungs.

 

A fast bear hug really sounds little different than a normal grab and squeeze.

 

This writeup is just about avoiding PD and has nothing to do with the SFX of a bear hug.

Well, you are free to make those rulings on a case by case basis when you're the GM. That doesn't make the write-up invalid. All it does is make it something that you personally don't like and wouldn't allow in your game.

 

 

One of the problems with Hero is that just because an idea can be thought of does not mean that it is a good idea. Especially when the Game Mechanic drives the SFX and not the other way around.

Actually, while there are a few problems with the Hero System, this isn't one of them. This is Hero System's greatest asset. You can have good ideas and bad ideas when playing any game, but it's not the rules that decide which ideas get used, it's the players. What makes this an asset in the Hero System is that the players have the choice to allow new ideas into the game, be they good or bad, because the rules won't tell you which is which (because what is good for you may be bad for me, and vice versa).

 

A different way to handle this is to give Ogre extra HHA damage only usable to squeeze. That would match this SFX a lot closer than an NND. The NND build is just trying to take advantage of game mechanics to avoid PD. IMO.

 

Exactly. In your opinion. My opinion differs. I think it matches the SFX exactly and even think you could remove a number of Limitations from it and it'll work even better, matching the SFX even closer.

[KarinsDad]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I disagree. What you are basically saying is that you think NND shouldn't be on there.

 

Not for that SFX.

 

Actually, while there are a few problems with the Hero System, this isn't one of them. This is Hero System's greatest asset.

 

No. The fact that SFX does not drive the game at all is a weakness of Hero's.

 

Internal SFX consistency must be driven by the GM, the system does not have internal SFX consistency with exceptions being rare.

 

Instead, exceptions to comic book SFX are the rule.

 

Iceman's ice armor does not melt in great heat unless he writes it that way.

 

Magneto's magnetism does not affect opponents in ferrous metal armor more than non-ferrous composite armors unless he writes it that way.

 

The Human Torch's fire does not disappear in a vacuum or with a fire extinguisher unless he writes it that way.

 

This is a game system weakness.

 

It forces either non-plausible events (i.e. where suspension of disbelief is lost), or GM adjudication where none should be needed.

 

If SFX drove the game system as much as game mechanics (as opposed to just game mechanics) where characters could still have exceptions to those SFX (i.e. purchased with advantages or limitations, e.g. Iceman could have super cold ice armor that never melts), it would minimize the "weird stuff" that sometimes happens in a game.

 

 

Just because something can be built in a given way (stretching one's suspension of disbelief) does not mean it should be.

 

You yourself admitted that the defenses for the NND were wrong. But, you somewhat contradict yourself with your own opinion because you also stated "He's specifically bought "enough force" by purchasing this specific Power. Says so right on his character sheet that he has enough force." According to you, if he buys it on his character sheet, than he has it. So if you can disagree on the defenses of the power even though it is written on his character sheet and hence, he has that power as written, than I can disagree with the NND aspect of the power.

 

Otherwise, the "he has it written on his character sheet" argument of yours should take priority over your opinion that the defenses are wrong.

 

 

I only allow game mechanics that closely match a SFX, not ones that seem to jar with the SFX. I do not allow every possible game mechanic for a given SFX, just because the game system allows for it. For me, SFX is the key, not game mechanics. It appears that you do not hold that same opinion.

[Checkmate]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I disagree that the creators thought Oger needed an NND so the fabricated the SFX. I think they looked at Martial Arts (that no one seemed to have a problem with) and saw that choke hold is an NND and it's basically the same SFX.

 

Now I've heard the argument that you're actually pinching off the artey, and that's why it's an NND, but let's analyze that argument for a moment shall we?

 

What does closing off that artery actually do?

Well it stops the flow of blood to the brain.

Why do we need blood to the brain?

Well blood carries oxygen to the brain cells

(If you're thinkin' you probably know where I'm going with this)

And where does the blood get this oxygen it carries to the brain?

From the lungs of course.

And if the lungs don't have oxygen in them?

Well then the blood can't deliver it to the brain.

And how is this different than pinching off the artery?

...