Ogre NND Question

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

................................

 

The bottom line is that this power really does work and you folks just don't like it.

 

Oh, I'd promised myself...but...

 

This is not right. The power works mechanically to do 6d6 stun damage to a target but the sfx described do not fit the power build. I mean, there's no point in arguing, we just don't see eye to eye, but editing the power on the fly ALWAYS works, and having to do that means that there was something wrong with the build in the first place.

 

Despite the fact that we operate in a game world full of logical inconsistencies and massive leaps of faith, this particular power hurts because most of the other problems are just in-game engineering (like the jet pack) or build problems (like visible lasers). It is no excuse not to get everything else internally consistent, and (as much as is possible and desireable - which will always be the sticking point, neh?) conforming with real world experience.

[casualplayer]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

After all the round-and-round and vitriol, I've finally figured out what this power actually is according to named SFX:

 

Ogre is Pulling his Punch and chasing it with a small NND if successful.

 

If he is using this power he's trying to subdue without killing by knocking the wind out of someone. Every side in this debate has said that the defenses listed under the original write-up are woefully inadequate and misleading. Most have said that the NND damage is excessive for the SFX represented. What I have come to believe is that the wrong power was used.

 

By shifting to using Pulling your Punch (Pulling your Grab?) we incorporate the chance that Ogre will blow his roll and snap ribs instead of compressing lungs while incorporating the long list of defenses that should apply to the attack as described. By Linking a small, possibly Continuous NND (say 2d6) we represent the effect of maintaining the pressure til the victim passes out.

 

Thoughts?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

After all the round-and-round and vitriol, I've finally figured out what this power actually is according to named SFX:

 

Ogre is Pulling his Punch and chasing it with a small NND if successful.

 

If he is using this power he's trying to subdue without killing by knocking the wind out of someone. Every side in this debate has said that the defenses listed under the original write-up are woefully inadequate and misleading. Most have said that the NND damage is excessive for the SFX represented. What I have come to believe is that the wrong power was used.

 

By shifting to using Pulling your Punch (Pulling your Grab?) we incorporate the chance that Ogre will blow his roll and snap ribs instead of compressing lungs while incorporating the long list of defenses that should apply to the attack as described. By Linking a small, possibly Continuous NND (say 2d6) we represent the effect of maintaining the pressure til the victim passes out.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'd agree that is a good way to match the power decription/sfx with an appropriate power build.

 

I retain my cynicism about why the origninal 6d6 NND was included in the build though

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

By shifting to using Pulling your Punch (Pulling your Grab?) we incorporate the chance that Ogre will blow his roll and snap ribs instead of compressing lungs while incorporating the long list of defenses that should apply to the attack as described. By Linking a small, possibly Continuous NND (say 2d6) we represent the effect of maintaining the pressure til the victim passes out.

 

Thoughts?

The official write up uses Requires a Skill Roll; failing the skill roll inflicts damage on the target as a side effect; the risk of doing normal damage instead of an NND is already built into the power as a side effect.

 

So, if you blow your skill roll, you still get to hurt the target using a side effect. I kind of found that cheap (though it does match the pulling your punch mechanic), and would not approve the build in my campaigns.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Ogre pulling a punch on a normal (or a grab and squeeze) would still cause BODY damage, albeit less than if he hadn't, and Ogre squeezing Grond is not going to do as much damage as the NND.

 

Ultimately it is a flavour thing, but this particular build/sfx combination, to extend the metaphor, is not to my taste.

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Ogre pulling a punch on a normal (or a grab and squeeze) would still cause BODY damage' date=' albeit less than if he hadn't,[/quote']

 

Which arguably is why he spent points on the power instead of using the free maneuver; so he could "pull his squeeze" and avoid causing body.

 

and Ogre squeezing Grond is not going to do as much damage as the NND.

 

Agreed, but then he spent points on the NND, but the squeeze came with his STR.

Ultimately it is a flavour thing, but this particular build/sfx combination, to extend the metaphor, is not to my taste.

 

I agree that the SFX don't quite go with the mechanics; still, HERO is usually a compromise between "realism" in the context of a Cinematic / Comic Book world and playability. If we wanted to be really realistic, we'd be playing "Office Hero", and the closest our characters would get to any sort of combat would be scuffles in the pub, and those would be rare and dangerous.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Oh, I'd promised myself...but...

 

This is not right. The power works mechanically to do 6d6 stun damage to a target but the sfx described do not fit the power build. I mean, there's no point in arguing, we just don't see eye to eye, but editing the power on the fly ALWAYS works, and having to do that means that there was something wrong with the build in the first place.

 

I'll have to chalk it up to miscommunication or misunderstanding here. One of us is clearly misunderstanding the other and/or the SFX of the Bearhug power. So far, I know you and I definitely can't agree what the SFX is. Though from what I can tell, if the SFX was how you describe it, then yes, you are absolutely correct in saying the build is wrong. But I don't believe the SFX is as you describe/believe it to be.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

After all the round-and-round and vitriol, I've finally figured out what this power actually is according to named SFX:

 

Ogre is Pulling his Punch and chasing it with a small NND if successful.

 

If he is using this power he's trying to subdue without killing by knocking the wind out of someone. Every side in this debate has said that the defenses listed under the original write-up are woefully inadequate and misleading. Most have said that the NND damage is excessive for the SFX represented. What I have come to believe is that the wrong power was used.

 

By shifting to using Pulling your Punch (Pulling your Grab?) we incorporate the chance that Ogre will blow his roll and snap ribs instead of compressing lungs while incorporating the long list of defenses that should apply to the attack as described. By Linking a small, possibly Continuous NND (say 2d6) we represent the effect of maintaining the pressure til the victim passes out.

 

Thoughts?

 

Except for your description of the SFX, I agree. It can be simulated by Pulling a Punch. You extra NND needed though (and the accidental use of full STR damage is already incorperated into the power on Ogre's sheet).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Now it's not just you' date=' Hugh, but anyone else who wants to get all anal-retentive in how any particular power that comes from a genre where people shoot lasers we can see, jetpacks that don't burn your butt off and where strongmen can pick up a trawler by the end and have it not break in half...[/quote']

 

Certainly, we all have different points at which suspension of disbelief kicks in. I don't think that laser should be in a Multipower with "Shoot the laser in his eyes - 12d6 Flash" and "Shoot the laser at his body - 4d6 RKA". How does firing on the eyes do no lasting damage? Similarly, with Ogre, how does crushing the target inflict n physical harm.

 

If Ogre were to perform this maneuver on a goldfish' date=' and I was the GM at the time, I'd first throw the nearest heavy object at the head of whoever is playing Ogre, then rule that attacking a goldfish with this power incurs a -6 penalty to the RSR. Should Ogre pull it off, yeah, the fish is in a coma. If not, then the fish suffers full 60 STR worth of damage.[/quote']

 

What do we think a 3 YO's STR is? Maybe 0? The goldfish is likely in the -30 range. That's a 30 point STR difference between 3 YO and goldfish. I think the 3 YO crushes the goldfish. Ogre has what, a 60 STR? More? yet he can pull this off without crushing a 10 STR normal - no lasting injury whatsoever.

 

The bottom line is that this power really does work and you folks just don't like it.

 

It works mechanically. I can write 6d6 NND - defense is "need not breathe" on my character sheet with no description whatsoever, and it works mechanically. However, the concept of "Crushing the target with my superhuman STR" does not, at least to many of us, rationally equate to that "6d6 NND, need not breathe", so it does not work conceptually.

 

Ogre is Pulling his Punch and chasing it with a small NND if successful.

 

If he is using this power he's trying to subdue without killing by knocking the wind out of someone. Every side in this debate has said that the defenses listed under the original write-up are woefully inadequate and misleading. Most have said that the NND damage is excessive for the SFX represented. What I have come to believe is that the wrong power was used.

 

By shifting to using Pulling your Punch (Pulling your Grab?) we incorporate the chance that Ogre will blow his roll and snap ribs instead of compressing lungs while incorporating the long list of defenses that should apply to the attack as described. By Linking a small, possibly Continuous NND (say 2d6) we represent the effect of maintaining the pressure til the victim passes out.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think this is a far superior mechanical construct. Now, if we had that "Suffocate" power, Ogre could take a suitably limited version and MPA it with a Grab and Crush, either pulling his punch, reducing his damage with the Crush (probably within some limits on the Suffocate power) or what have you and get a much more conceptually sound version of this power.

 

The official write up uses Requires a Skill Roll; failing the skill roll inflicts damage on the target as a side effect; the risk of doing normal damage instead of an NND is already built into the power as a side effect.

 

So, if you blow your skill roll, you still get to hurt the target using a side effect. I kind of found that cheap (though it does match the pulling your punch mechanic), and would not approve the build in my campaigns.

 

I don't like that use of the Side Effect at all. Can I also take a 1d6 Smell Flash, Act 8-, with the Side Effect that the target takes a 30d6 Killing Attack if I miss the activation roll? Better yet, let's make the side effect always occur.

 

Which arguably is why he spent points on the power instead of using the free maneuver; so he could "pull his squeeze" and avoid causing body.

 

This comes back to a question I've often asked of a newly designed character, especially of players who aren't quite into the theory of reasoning from effect. "I understand why you, the player, would like the character to have this ability. I understand why the character would want to have the ability. Now explain, within the parameters of the character's construct and background, how and why the character has obtained this ability."

 

Agreed' date=' but then he spent points on the NND, but the squeeze came with his STR. [/quote']

 

Should he also buy a 12d6 Flash "Poke you in the eyes really hard"? Hey, he spent the points. Maybe EDM, usable against others. "Knock you into next week"? An INT Aid - "Slap some sense into you"? An INT drain - "Slap you silly"? Tramsform - "Hit ou so hard you have to open your fly to talk"?

 

The points justify the game effect of the ability, but the concept doesn't justify the character having the ability in the first place.

 

I agree that the SFX don't quite go with the mechanics; still' date=' HERO is usually a compromise between "realism" in the context of a Cinematic / Comic Book world and playability. If we wanted to be really realistic, we'd be playing "Office Hero", and the closest our characters would get to any sort of combat would be scuffles in the pub, and those would be rare and dangerous.[/quote']

 

There are degrees of realism and verisimilitude. This one crosses the line, at least for some. For me, a lot of the problem comes back to the lack of an actual "sufocate" power. If we had such an animal, we wouldn't see suffocation effects modeled as a huge NND that KO's a target out far faster than the effects of suffocation, but fails to inflict the other game effects of suffocation.

 

Reasoning from effect, Suffocate should be a massive REC suppress and a series of tiny attacks draining END, then small NND STUN and finally inflicting NND BOD. But then we cross the point balance threshhold where the cost of the effect is far too great for its game impact. An actual "Suffocate" power, with a reasonable price, would mitigate this problem.

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Should he also buy a 12d6 Flash "Poke you in the eyes really hard"?

 

Martial Flash is already part of the game, and in a setting without hit locations and disabling effects Flash is a valid way to inflict this kind of blindness, so, yes, this might be OK.

 

Hey, he spent the points. Maybe EDM, usable against others. "Knock you into next week"? An INT Aid - "Slap some sense into you"? An INT drain - "Slap you silly"? Tramsform - "Hit ou so hard you have to open your fly to talk"?

 

In a comedy campaign, sure. Any of the above would fit in an Assistant Editors Month game.

 

The points justify the game effect of the ability, but the concept doesn't justify the character having the ability in the first place.

 

In some cases I'd agree with this.

 

An actual "Suffocate" power, with a reasonable price, would mitigate this problem.

 

And I agree here as well. I'd also like to see more detailed choking rules, and the martial NND using the SFX Choke replaced with something using those rules as a basis.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Martial Flash is already part of the game' date=' and in a setting without hit locations and disabling effects Flash is a valid way to inflict this kind of blindness, so, yes, this might be OK.[/quote']

 

So poking Joe Normal in the eye with my 60 STR should blind him for a minute or so, but permanent eye damage should be impossible. OK.

 

In a comedy campaign' date=' sure. Any of the above would fit in an Assistant Editors Month game. [/quote']

 

I don't think Ogre's NND was intended for a comedy game.

 

How about 12d6 Mind Control "If you don't, I'll hit you"? Should Ogre have the ability to bypass any hero's physical defenses, using just the threat of his strength, and force them to do his bidding? This sounds a lot like a PRE attack, but Ogre's NND sounds a lot like a Grab and Crush. I guess if he can customize a "I grab them and squeeze" power to bypass the target's resistance to physical attacks, it should be equally legitimate to customize a "I threaten him with physical violence upon his person" attack to bypass the usual abilities that resist intimidation.

 

And I agree here as well. I'd also like to see more detailed choking rules' date=' and the martial NND using the SFX Choke replaced with something using those rules as a basis.[/quote']

 

If we had real suffocation rules, presumably "Choke" would be a Martial element. It seems reasonable. It also seems reasonable that someone lacking martial arts could still try to achieve a choke hold, much like we have normal and martial versions of Dodge, Block, Strike and Grab.

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

So poking Joe Normal in the eye with my 60 STR should blind him for a minute or so' date=' but permanent eye damage should be impossible. OK.[/quote']

 

No, but then that's not what I typed. If you're running a campaign where hit location and disabling rules are not in use, Flash with the SFX of "Poke in the eye" is a valid way to simulate that kind of attack, and is already in the rules as Martial Flash. If you're running a campaign where the optional hit location etc. rules are in use, then yes, that's the appropriate course to take.

 

Hit location for the Eye is -12, and you'd need to do 1/2 the targets BODY to impair sight or more than the target's BODY to blind the character. The BOD multiplier for the eye is 2 1/2, so it's not quite as hard as it sounds. Combat Handbook, p.119 to 121.

 

I don't think Ogre's NND was intended for a comedy game.

 

I think any campaign using Ogre as a villain is going to have major camp elements, out and out comedy game or not.

 

How about 12d6 Mind Control "If you don't, I'll hit you"?

 

In a comedy game, sure.

 

Should Ogre have the ability to bypass any hero's physical defenses, using just the threat of his strength, and force them to do his bidding? This sounds a lot like a PRE attack,

 

You could also do it as Offensive Only PRE.

 

 

but Ogre's NND sounds a lot like a Grab and Crush.

 

Which is how I'd run it.

 

 

I guess if he can customize a "I grab them and squeeze" power to bypass the target's resistance to physical attacks, it should be equally legitimate to customize a "I threaten him with physical violence upon his person" attack to bypass the usual abilities that resist intimidation.

 

If the GM thought that was a simpler way to handle it, it would be that GM's call.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Similarly, with Ogre, how does crushing the target inflict n physical harm.

 

 

It works mechanically. I can write 6d6 NND - defense is "need not breathe" on my character sheet with no description whatsoever, and it works mechanically. However, the concept of "Crushing the target with my superhuman STR" does not, at least to many of us, rationally equate to that "6d6 NND, need not breathe", so it does not work conceptually.

Again, that's not the SFX. It is not "crush target" any more than it is "cause target to suffocate". I'd agree with you 100% if it was either of those SFX. But it isn't.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

You could also do it as Offensive Only PRE.

 

But that doesn't override the target's natural resistance to presence attacks. Just like a Grab and Crush from Ogre (or any PC wanting a similar attack) wouldn't override the target's natural PD and allow the well-defended target to be damaged easier. Reasoning from effect vs. rationalizing the mechanic.

 

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't think TUB suggests the maneuver, which I believe is written up separate and apart from Ogre, is suggested for camp games only.

 

Again' date=' that's not the SFX. It is not "crush target" any more than it is "cause target to suffocate". I'd agree with you 100% if it was either of those SFX. But it isn't.[/quote']

 

A SuperStrength hemilich maneuver is still exerting physical force. Exerting 256 times the force a "normal" (20 STR) man can exert against a person's rib cage or diaphragm would reasonably inflict physical harm. A fat woman in stiletto heels can exert enough force (pounds per square inch) from those heels to penetrate floorboards. How many pounds per square inch do Ogre's clenched fists exert into his target's midsection? Yet it causes no lasting damage.

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

But that doesn't override the target's natural resistance to presence attacks. Just like a Grab and Crush from Ogre (or any PC wanting a similar attack) wouldn't override the target's natural PD and allow the well-defended target to be damaged easier. Reasoning from effect vs. rationalizing the mechanic.

 

Or maybe the guy who can squeeze in such a way as to put his target unconscious no matter how tough the target is, without risk of squeezing so hard as to cause permanent damage, is just cinematicaly good at it.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't think TUB suggests the maneuver, which I believe is written up separate and apart from Ogre, is suggested for camp games only.

If it's not gritty enough for your games, don't use it. As the CU is a world featuring talking super scientist Gorillas and Foxbat and his faithful followers, I'm willing to say the CU has a fair level of camp.

 

A SuperStrength hemilich maneuver is still exerting physical force. Exerting 256 times the force a "normal" (20 STR) man can exert against a person's rib cage or diaphragm would reasonably inflict physical harm.

 

He's doing 12d6, not 1024d6, so I'd say that 256 times estimate is incorrect. Ask Steve whether damage is geometric.

 

A fat woman in stiletto heels can exert enough force (pounds per square inch) from those heels to penetrate floorboards. How many pounds per square inch do Ogre's clenched fists exert into his target's midsection? Yet it causes no lasting damage.

 

Right, it doesn't. That's comic book realism for you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

.......................

 

 

 

Right, it doesn't. That's comic book realism for you.

 

 

Not the ones that sell these days.

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Not the ones that sell these days.

 

I completely disagree. The technobabel explanations of comic book silliness is aimed at an older and slightly better educated audience, and the amount of on camera blood and (generally temporary) death has gone up, but "realism"? In a world of flying men who melt tanks with energy beams from their eyes? Nonsense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Or maybe the guy who can squeeze in such a way as to put his target unconscious no matter how tough the target is' date=' without risk of squeezing so hard as to cause permanent damage, is just cinematicaly good at it.[/quote']

 

if he were Dr. Ogre, with a supreme knowedge of human physiology and how to manipulate it, I might buy it. Having a 60 STR and a rough knowledge that the lungs are somewhere between the stomach and the neck doesn't do it.

 

But it's a question of where one draws the line on "realism", and there are likely some who would accept the Ogre NND and balk at some of the abilities in my games as well.

 

He's doing 12d6' date=' not 1024d6, so I'd say that 256 times estimate is incorrect. Ask Steve whether damage is geometric.[/quote']

 

He can lift 256 times the amount that our 20 STR NCM human can lift. Can he do that if he can only exert 3x as much force as the 20 STR NCM human? He's now exerting that force on to push a person's diaphragm up through their nostrils, instead of pushing a Sherman tank up towards the sky. How is one 256x as much force, but the other not?

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

if he were Dr. Ogre, with a supreme knowedge of human physiology and how to manipulate it, I might buy it. Having a 60 STR and a rough knowledge that the lungs are somewhere between the stomach and the neck doesn't do it.

 

But it's a question of where one draws the line on "realism", and there are likely some who would accept the Ogre NND and balk at some of the abilities in my games as well.

 

I expect so as well. I'd also repeat that I wouldn't allow Ogre's NND; however, I can see why and how it was included in the Ultimate Brick.

 

He can lift 256 times the amount that our 20 STR NCM human can lift. Can he do that if he can only exert 3x as much force as the 20 STR NCM human? He's now exerting that force on to push a person's diaphragm up through their nostrils, instead of pushing a Sherman tank up towards the sky. How is one 256x as much force, but the other not?

 

That's the old damage issue in HERO again. The Jumping , throwing, lifting and damage mechanics all err on the side of playability rather than accurate simulation of the forces involved. I'd be interested in seeing them fixed, but I doubt it's possible without completely re-working the game from the ground up.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I completely disagree. The technobabel explanations of comic book silliness is aimed at an older and slightly better educated audience' date=' and the amount of on camera blood and (generally temporary) death has gone up, but "realism"? In a world of flying men who melt tanks with energy beams from their eyes? Nonsense.[/quote']

 

Nonsense?

 

We disagree. Writers cannot get away with the sort of sloppy and, frankly, condescending presentation that they used to.

 

Nothing wrong with technobabble, so long as there is some real techno in there, and the babble at least logically extends the thinking.

 

Ultimately though, the comics are not the game and the game is not the comics - they have different requirements. Superman can fire beams of energy from his eyes, and get away with it, but as soon as we start explaining that power by saying it is because he eats lots of carrots and that makes his eyes strong, you are laughed out of the store.

 

The game is not comics because comics can often get away without explanations as to how things work. The game doesn't always have that kind of luxury. You want to give Ogre a 6d6 NND and say it is as a result of his being able to precisely control his strength so as to crush the air from an opponently lungs without harming the surrounding flesh in any way, and you can hear even the little kids tittering.

 

I mean, it would be just as bad if you gave Ogre 20 points of Wu-Shu Kung Fu. It just does not make sense in context.

 

Whether or not you could ever justify the NND power and the stated sfx together for a character is almost irrelevant; you certainly can't for Ogre.

 

I stand by what I said in post 3 of this thread: not a top piece of character design.

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

We disagree. Writers cannot get away with the sort of sloppy and, frankly, condescending presentation that they used to.

 

Sloppy and condescending is pretty much exactly how I'd describe Civil War.

 

Nothing wrong with technobabble, so long as there is some real techno in there, and the babble at least logically extends the thinking.

 

I agree. After all, I'm a fan of the genre again. Still, the Marvel and DC Universes are filled with flying men, magic, gods in multiple flavors from Pagan to Christian to Cosmic, any number of shape changers, talking animals, people who re-write reality by punching it, etc. Terms like "Internally Consistent" may be a phrase you can use with a straight face and in good conscience to describe some superhero worlds, but not realistic.

 

Ultimately though, the comics are not the game and the game is not the comics - they have different requirements. Superman can fire beams of energy from his eyes, and get away with it, but as soon as we start explaining that power by saying it is because he eats lots of carrots and that makes his eyes strong, you are laughed out of the store.

 

Are you? It's no sillier than saying he's Solar Powered, or Psionic, or Magic. All of them are nonsense explanations.

 

The game is not comics because comics can often get away without explanations as to how things work. The game doesn't always have that kind of luxury. You want to give Ogre a 6d6 NND and say it is as a result of his being able to precisely control his strength so as to crush the air from an opponently lungs without harming the surrounding flesh in any way, and you can hear even the little kids tittering.

 

I can hear people saying "It's a genre thing, and it's the way these attacks work in HERO".

I mean, it would be just as bad if you gave Ogre 20 points of Wu-Shu Kung Fu. It just does not make sense in context.

 

Add a line or two in his campaign back story explaining how he learned it and you're golden.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

......................

 

Add a line or two in his campaign back story explaining how he learned it and you're golden.

 

I think that is the point though. Two points,even:

 

1. There is no such explanation for THIS character, so, again, not a top piece of character design, and

 

2. Whilst you can say that ANYTHING is so, I think that the best you could hope for here is something that looks golden from a distance, but up close smells like what it really is. Working in a fantastic genre doesn't mean there are no narrative rules any more.

 

Still, bottom line is I don't have to allow it in games I run, and if others are happy to have it in games they run, good luck to them.

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Still, bottom line is I don't have to allow it in games I run, and if others are happy to have it in games they run, good luck to them.

 

And that I agree with entirely.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

A SuperStrength hemilich maneuver is still exerting physical force. Exerting 256 times the force a "normal" (20 STR) man can exert against a person's rib cage or diaphragm would reasonably inflict physical harm. A fat woman in stiletto heels can exert enough force (pounds per square inch) from those heels to penetrate floorboards. How many pounds per square inch do Ogre's clenched fists exert into his target's midsection? Yet it causes no lasting damage.

 

Just because Ogre has the STR to apply that kind of pressure doesn't mean he applies it all, or applies it in a way that causes harm. Ogre also has the STR to exert enough pressure to crush a normal car into steel spit wad, but he's still able to pick one up without causing any damage. Why the assumption that someone with superhuman strength must cause massive damage to things?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

if he were Dr. Ogre' date=' with a supreme knowedge of human physiology and how to manipulate it, I might buy it. Having a 60 STR and a rough knowledge that the lungs are somewhere between the stomach and the neck doesn't do it. [/quote']

 

Here I agree. OGRE should not have this power. The power itself is fine and there is nothing wrong with it, but Ogre doesn't have the finesse and restraint to even consider trying something like it.