Ogre NND Question

[Grimble]

O.K. Ogre has an NND Bearhug 6d6 Energy Blast. The defense is self contained breathing. Question: What if the one grabbed has Extended breathing? The brick in my group only needs to expend to expend END after 20 minutes of not breathing. Does he take the EB Dam after 20 mins held in the grab?

 

 

Grimble

[Checkmate]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

No. What Oger is doing is forcing the air from your lungs. When you take expanded breathing, it represents that the air in your lungs can be used a lot longer, but you still need air in them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Depends: if the sfx of the extended breathing are that you can simply get by with a lot less oxygen than normal, rather than that you can hold an enormous amount in your lungs (and you can't, because lungs require air pressure to fill them) then extended breathing would probably be fine as a defence for however long it took.

 

Anyway a 6d6 NND is ridiculous: first off, even if your lungs were completely emptied, it would be a while before you used up the O2 in your blood - you can completely empty your lungs and not take 6d6 NND - and second, even if you felt the effects immediately, you suffocate far more slowly than that 'naturally'.

 

So, not a top piece of character design then.

[Checkmate]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

But you're okay with boot jets?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

This is another example of powers designed to simulate an inability to breathe which operates very differently from actual suffocation (under the game rules and in real life). Like most such powers, it does far too much STUN, far too quickly, compared to having your air supply cut off.

 

And yet, Ogre can maintain that grip until he passes out from lack of sleep, keeping the target from pulling any oxygen into their lungs for hours, and they won't take any BOD damage, when real humans denied air for five minutes generally die.

 

To say it again, the system needs a "Suffocate" power.

[Armitage]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

To say it again' date=' the system needs a "Suffocate" power.[/quote']

 

Like the variation of "Suffocation" in the Air Powers section of the UNTIL Superpowers Database?

Change Environment with -1 Temperature level to represent removing breathable gasses. The target is then forced to hold his breath until he runs out of END, STUN and BODY, as per the established rules for drowning.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

But you're okay with boot jets?

 

You've got a thing about jet boots, haven't you? Did you get issued with a duff pair?

 

I do understand the point: we are suspending disbelief and believing the unbelievable, so why stop at the rational?

 

I mean, fuel supply problems aside, the whole problem with stabilisation, the one about generating sufficient thrust but not melting your feet....that's just science.

 

Having a power that prevents you from breathing and does 6d6NND, that's contradiction, and that, my friend, is the problem: so long as a fantasy remains internally consistent, I can ignore all the superscience/magic/mutation accomplishes the impossible. What I can't ignore is the suffocation rule saying one thing, and a power that emulates suffocation doing something entirely different.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Like the variation of "Suffocation" in the Air Powers section of the UNTIL Superpowers Database?

Change Environment with -1 Temperature level to represent removing breathable gasses. The target is then forced to hold his breath until he runs out of END, STUN and BODY, as per the established rules for drowning.

 

Change Environment is getting almost as bad as transform, EDM and snake oil medicine in the scope and variety of things it can do.

 

Perhaps we ought to have a catch-all:

 

Wooly Power

 

There is no definition as to what a Wooly Power can do; you can make up your own stuff, and it can do pretty much anything. It is probably best to make up a mechanic too. There are, however, limits: you have to define a defence and must spend at least 15 points on the power per target, unless the target is a planet, in which case the cost is 20 points, or the whole of creation, in which case it is 30.

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Having a power that prevents you from breathing and does 6d6NND, that's contradiction, and that, my friend, is the problem: so long as a fantasy remains internally consistent, I can ignore all the superscience/magic/mutation accomplishes the impossible. What I can't ignore is the suffocation rule saying one thing, and a power that emulates suffocation doing something entirely different.

 

Maybe it's not just suffocation. Maybe it's a combination of Suffocation and the mighty manly mashing meted-out by Ogre's massively muscular meat-hooks, simplified down to a single NND vs Self Contained Breathing rather than a more complicated multiple power attack using grab & squeeze and a hypothetical grab & suffocate through compression maneuver. Especially considering that you can buy Martial Choke as a maneuver, and could reasonably get it up to 6d6NND with extra DCs.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I had assumed all that massive NND damage from Ogre's bearhug attack came from all the air being suddenly forced from your lungs. I imagine that hurts something nasty...

 

As for the martial artist with Choke Hold and +8 DCs... Well, um... it's cinematic, right? Maybe it's the shock of suddenly not having the luxury of air anymore and you just pass out... I dunno, it's all movie magic.

[Tom]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Maybe it's not just suffocation. Maybe it's a combination of Suffocation and the mighty manly mashing meted-out by Ogre's massively muscular meat-hooks' date=' simplified down to a single NND vs Self Contained Breathing rather than a more complicated multiple power attack using grab & squeeze and a hypothetical grab & suffocate through compression maneuver. Especially considering that you can buy Martial Choke as a maneuver, and could reasonably get it up to 6d6NND with extra DCs.[/quote']

 

Tangental side-note... When you choke someone out in most martial manuevers that I'm familiar with, you're not suffocating them from lack of air to the lungs -- you're cutting off the flow of blood to their brain by restricting the carotid artery...

[OddHat]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Tangental side-note... When you choke someone out in most martial manuevers that I'm familiar with' date=' you're not suffocating them from lack of air to the lungs -- you're cutting off the flow of blood to their brain by restricting the carotid artery...[/quote']

 

Sure. The defense to the NND may for simplicity's sake be Self Contained Breathing, but then a case could be made that when Ogre, with strength that has a decent chance of crushing cars and smashing through concrete walls squeezes you, more than just losing air should come into play.

[Checkmate]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

You've got a thing about jet boots' date=' haven't you? Did you get issued with a duff pair?[/quote']

Nah just one of the more unbeleive staples of comic books

 

I do understand the point: we are suspending disbelief and believing the unbelievable, so why stop at the rational?

 

I mean, fuel supply problems aside, the whole problem with stabilisation, the one about generating sufficient thrust but not melting your feet....that's just science.

 

Having a power that prevents you from breathing and does 6d6NND, that's contradiction, and that, my friend, is the problem: so long as a fantasy remains internally consistent, I can ignore all the superscience/magic/mutation accomplishes the impossible. What I can't ignore is the suffocation rule saying one thing, and a power that emulates suffocation doing something entirely different.

Well I think we first have to understand what STUN represents. I remember when I was a child, I was climbing a rope up a tree. I was about 7 feet off the ground and the rope broke and I landed flat on my back. Now normally a 7' fall to a 12 year old is nothing, but the air was knocked out of me. I couldn't breath, I couldn't move, and when I finally caught my breath it took a lot out of me. I was dazed, seeing stars. That was a heck of a lot different than when my brother held me under the water when I was already holding my breath. While I was technically suffocating under the water (burning END and maybe some STUN), it took much longer before I had nothing left than the fall did. So I would say that having the air forcefully expelled from your lungs is significant'y different than suffocation.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Maybe it's not just suffocation. Maybe it's a combination of Suffocation and the mighty manly mashing meted-out by Ogre's massively muscular meat-hooks' date=' simplified down to a single NND vs Self Contained Breathing rather than a more complicated multiple power attack using grab & squeeze and a hypothetical grab & suffocate through compression maneuver. Especially considering that you can buy Martial Choke as a maneuver, and could reasonably get it up to 6d6NND with extra DCs.[/quote']

 

First, to quote a Monty Python sketch, (shrill British woman voice), "Don't you practice your alliteration on me!"

 

Secondly, that's pretty much how I was thinking of it. It's not 'look, I'm stopping you from breathing', it's 'look, 60 Str Heimlich Maneuver that makes both lungs squirt out your nostrils'.

[KarinsDad]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Secondly' date=' that's pretty much how I was thinking of it. It's not 'look, I'm stopping you from breathing', it's 'look, 60 Str Heimlich Maneuver that makes both lungs squirt out your nostrils'.[/quote']

 

So, Scubaman who has a tank on takes no damage because his lungs do not squirt out of his nostrils, but the brick in the OP's post who has a very strong chest takes full damage.

 

The problem that people are struggling with is that the defense to NNDs is another game mechanic, it is not SFX. And as long as defenses are always defined as game mechanics instead of special effects, people will continue to ask questions about things that happen in games that are not plausible to them, but is book literal what happens according to the rules.

 

That's a bit of a weakness of Heroes. Power defense typically protects against all adjustment powers, regardless of its special effect. ED typically protects against every energy in the world, regardless of its special effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

So' date=' Scubaman who has a tank on takes no damage because his lungs do not squirt out of his nostrils, but the brick in the OP's post who has a very strong chest takes full damage.[/quote']

 

And a small tabby cat which Ogre grabbed and, in a fit of pique, crushed to remove all the air from its lungs, is knocked out, but takes not BOD damage from having its lungs squirt out of its nostrils.

 

A punch in the stomach also expels a person's air pretty quickly. It would generally do "punch" damage (Stun and BOD), not special NND damage that a guy in a scuba mask won't take.

 

Maybe some of Ogre's NND shoud inflict BOD, or maybe it should only be an extra d6 or 2 delivered with a Squeeze maneuver that does normal damage, maybe with the advantage "does BOD" limited by "only when target already unconscious" so this maneuver could kill a high DEF Brick who still needs oxygen. It looks like this power isn't very accurately reasoned from effect.

[Silbeg]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

I had assumed all that massive NND damage from Ogre's bearhug attack came from all the air being suddenly forced from your lungs. I imagine that hurts something nasty...

 

That's what I was thinking, too. Unfortunately, the SFX don't really work for someone with LS:SCB through a focus (unless SCUBA gear can keep air IN you lungs? ).

 

As for the martial artist with Choke Hold and +8 DCs... Well' date=' um... it's cinematic, right? Maybe it's the shock of suddenly not having the luxury of air anymore and you just pass out... I dunno, it's all movie magic.[/quote']

 

Yeah, it could be some of that? Dunno...

 

In reality, all of the "choking" should be done with other kinds of powers, and let the suffication do its work. Unfortunately, that would take far too much time to show on camera (or play out in a combat). So, we get cheesy constructs.

 

Would anyone doubt Ogre's ability to crush the breath out of a person's lungs? I don't think so. However, doing this would likely do other sorts of damage (crushing ribs, puncturing the lungs... maybe even stopping the heart?). So, for our "comic book" or "cinematic" , this is done to make playability work over realism.

[1EyedJack]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

May buy it Avld, only PD figured from strength applies. That way some one like Cyclops gets less defense than say Spiderman.

[Silbeg]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

May buy it Avld' date=' only PD figured from strength applies. That way some one like Cyclops gets less defense than say Spiderman.[/quote']

 

Now that would be an interesting build. Perhaps adding a limitation that if the target doesn't need to breath (for various reasons, but including a lack of lungs), he is immune.

[KarinsDad]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Now that would be an interesting build. Perhaps adding a limitation that if the target doesn't need to breath (for various reasons' date=' but including a lack of lungs), he is immune.[/quote']

 

I suggest that breathing not be part of the equation.

 

Any creature who is bear hugged should have his internal organs squeezed by a bear hug, not just creatures who can breath. Hence, very powerful creatures (as evidenced by PD) should be less affected by such an action and very weak creatures should be more affected by such an action.

 

Gee, maybe it should just be a 12D6 physical squeeze attack and the fancy smancy stuff be ignored.

 

Sometimes people overthink this stuff way too much in the name of creating a cool power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

OK, we're off topic, but it is an interesting off topic.

 

The problem's with SCB as a defence have bee mentioned: Ogre squeezing a normal guy in a spacesuit is going to do the damage, if the squeeze does the damage at all, as if he didn't have the spacesuit (and so the defence). Moreover, that kind of squeeze is going to do Body damage to a lot of targets, if it is a choke hold, then SCB is the wrong defence (although, to give it it's due, it is the wrong defence for the martial manouevre too)? That's just some of the problems with that weak link to sfx. There's others.

 

Even if you can rationalise it, it takes effort, and that jars the flow of the game, which is bad. It is this sort of thing that really can put new players off:

 

NP: But that doesn't make sense because if he'd grabbed you he'd just keep hold.

 

GM: It makes perfect sense because he didn't buy the power with 'contuinuous'

 

POP

 

GM: What was that noise?

 

NP: The bubble bursting. Can you run DnD next week?

 

Still, bever mind, eh?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

That's what I was thinking' date=' too. Unfortunately, the SFX don't really work for someone with LS:SCB through a focus (unless SCUBA gear can keep air IN you lungs? ).[/quote']

SCUBA tanks are a Focus, and an accessible one at that. So, no, they don't grant protection against this kind of NND. They would against gas attacks and stuff, but not the crush the air out of your lungs (or squish the lungs our of your nose) attacks.

 

 

 

Yeah, it could be some of that? Dunno...

 

In reality, all of the "choking" should be done with other kinds of powers, and let the suffication do its work. Unfortunately, that would take far too much time to show on camera (or play out in a combat). So, we get cheesy constructs.

 

Would anyone doubt Ogre's ability to crush the breath out of a person's lungs? I don't think so. However, doing this would likely do other sorts of damage (crushing ribs, puncturing the lungs... maybe even stopping the heart?). So, for our "comic book" or "cinematic" , this is done to make playability work over realism.

 

I think generally crushing someone's chest into pulp should do BODY damage, or have the potential of doing so. I think this bearhug attack is bought the way it is because Ogre has the ability to regulate the pressure enough to knock someone out without harming them. While it does seem out of character, apparently Ogre has the ability to consciously not hurt someone.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

NP: But that doesn't make sense because if he'd grabbed you he'd just keep hold.

 

GM: It makes perfect sense because he didn't buy the power with 'contuinuous'

 

Me: Um... isn't that what Multiple Power Attack is for? So Ogre can Grab you while applying his Bearhug NND maneuver?

[pinecone]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Me: Um... isn't that what Multiple Power Attack is for? So Ogre can Grab you while applying his Bearhug NND maneuver?

 

Yeah,thats how I've always seen it ...grab,then squeeze....all in the same phase, or if he wants to taunt ya he waits a while then squeezes...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ogre NND Question

 

Me: Um... isn't that what Multiple Power Attack is for? So Ogre can Grab you while applying his Bearhug NND maneuver?

 

You could certainly MPA it, but that is not the point: the point is that the sfx are of a grab even thoguh one is not taking place, which can lead those too stupid to understand that 'Hero doesn't do what it says, just what it is built to do' to the land of confusion.

 

Moreover, even if you DO grab someone on one phase then try the bearhug on the next....well, to be honest, I'm not sure what happens. Can you maintain teh grab whilst crushing? Probably, but I'm not sure. I'm not even sure that would properly be a MPA as the attack roll is not to hold on (that's the STR v STR roll) it is just to do damage.

 

It is not straightforward.