Fantasy Imperium?

[PhilFleischmann]

Has anyone here evr heard of an RPG called "Fantasy Imperium"? They were giving the main book away for free at my local con. And of course, the universe cannot refuse something given for free. Usually, free things are worth what you paid, but in this case, I'd say it's worth at least twice as much.

 

All (or most) kidding aside, it does look somewhat interesting. An "as acurate as possible" Roman Empire setting with magic and other fantasy elements. The system seems *incredibly* and *excessively* detailed - pages and pages of pictures of different weapons and armor, each one having slightly different stats. I don't think EGG himself (peace be unto him) was ever this obsessive about detail. I haven't read through the whole thing, but it seems the book itself isn't enough to actually run the game. It seems (so far) like it's just Character Creation and some setting info for the players.

 

And it pretentiously calls itself an ISG - an "Interactive Storytelling Game" - and insists that it is *not* and RPG. Though there's no distinction that I can see.

 

The pictures are nice and there's lots of good info about weapons and armor, and some babe-alicious art. And there's some stuff in there that might inspire bits for my Fantasy HERO game (a lowly RPG).

 

So, do you know about this thing? What do you think of it?

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

Has anyone here evr heard of an RPG called "Fantasy Imperium"? They were giving the main book away for free at my local con. And of course, the universe cannot refuse something given for free. Usually, free things are worth what you paid, but in this case, I'd say it's worth at least twice as much.

 

All (or most) kidding aside, it does look somewhat interesting. An "as acurate as possible" Roman Empire setting with magic and other fantasy elements. The system seems *incredibly* and *excessively* detailed - pages and pages of pictures of different weapons and armor, each one having slightly different stats. I don't think EGG himself (peace be unto him) was ever this obsessive about detail. I haven't read through the whole thing, but it seems the book itself isn't enough to actually run the game. It seems (so far) like it's just Character Creation and some setting info for the players.

 

And it pretentiously calls itself an ISG - an "Interactive Storytelling Game" - and insists that it is *not* and RPG. Though there's no distinction that I can see.

 

The pictures are nice and there's lots of good info about weapons and armor, and some babe-alicious art. And there's some stuff in there that might inspire bits for my Fantasy HERO game (a lowly RPG).

 

So, do you know about this thing? What do you think of it?

 

I know the developer personally and have been friends with him for years. I was involved with the play-testing when this project was still young (it was named en garde then) and think he may have put my name in it. I actually liked the previous mechanics better as they were more robust, but it had a different focus then and needed to do different things. I think he did a workman like job and accomplished his goal, but would have liked to have seen more clothes and crunch (since a good narrator can do his work irrespective of the rules-set and women die of exposure just like men do). I wasn't involved in the most recent incarnation due to geographic and time constraints.

 

I do think you're reaction to lame marketing speak, which we encounter everywhere, is a bit overmuch though. The author is a gamer like anyone else, and runs an entertaining game. He's very character and plot motivated as a gamer and game-master and prefers a heavily narrative style. I think he could have called it an RPG, but wanted to make a distinction between role playing and roll playing. He's the gamer who introduced me to Harn, which would explain the "loving attention to detail." Harniacs tend to worry about things like... pig farming and crop rotation and the correct middle french terms for obscure pieces of armor. I'll mail him. Maybe he'll respond to this very thread. I'm sure he'd like to know someone was interested.

 

Personally, I use Hero, but its probably got usable material in it... still waiting for my copy.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

Yes. Medieval Europe - not Roman Empire - is what I should have said. Holy Roman Empire, and Eastern (Byzantine) Roman Empire, as well as the rest of Europe.

 

I do think you're reaction to lame marketing speak' date=' which we encounter everywhere, is a bit overmuch though. The author is a gamer like anyone else, and runs an entertaining game. He's very character and plot motivated as a gamer and game-master and prefers a heavily narrative style.[/quote']

That's fine, and I'm certainly impressed by the research, but I'm much more interested in playing the game and having fun, than marvelling at the author's "loving attention to detail." He comes across as far more of a simulationist than a narativist.

 

38 pages of weapon and armor stats.

117 pages of weapon and armor lists and illustrations.

26 pages of price lists, economic class details, and profession incomes

Appendix G is 25 pages of "reference charts".

19-step combat procedure.

 

It's all very fascinating and impressive, but I don't see it adding to my enjoyment of the game. Just my opinion.

 

In addition to the "ISG" vs RPG thing, a few other bits bug me a little: the spellings "magick" and "alchymy" - they just strike me as excessively geeky.

 

Personally, I use Hero, but its probably got usable material in it... still waiting for my copy.

Oh, I'd definitely say there's usable material in it! Despite all my criticism, it's still full of neat ideas. It's good to see another perspecive to help one "think ouside the box."

[Gadodel]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

It sounds pretty interesting.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

 

That's fine, and I'm certainly impressed by the research, but I'm much more interested in playing the game and having fun, than marvelling at the author's "loving attention to detail." He comes across as far more of a simulationist than a narativist.

 

...

 

It's all very fascinating and impressive, but I don't see it adding to my enjoyment of the game. Just my opinion.

 

IME the two often go hand in hand, especially with people who have a history with Harn. I find my games tend to be an even mix of the two, though I tend to be more character and story driven, and everyone I've met says I'm narrative driven, but the simulation streak is there. In Mark's case I think the underlying philosophy is that to tell a good story and make a believable character you have to understand the setting (hence his decision to use a historical setting, which is researchable, than a unique world, which is what the game used in its misty beginnings). That, and he's always had an impressive love of minutiae - like french armor terms.

 

 

In addition to the "ISG" vs RPG thing, a few other bits bug me a little: the spellings "magick" and "alchymy" - they just strike me as excessively geeky.

 

Some people consider gaming at all excessively geeky. Most here are aware that I am a strong proponent of orthodox spelling and clear language, and had I been a proof-reader on the project I would have argued against the use of such spellings, but all in all I find all geeks are excessive about something.

 

 

Oh, I'd definitely say there's usable material in it! Despite all my criticism, it's still full of neat ideas. It's good to see another perspecive to help one "think ouside the box."

 

I've been assured my copy is coming, so maybe I'll post a review when I've thumbed through it. All of my comments to date have been based on an e-draft from almost two years ago. Also, Mark asked for a link to this thread so he may drop in to answer some questions for you if you have them.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

It sounds kinda interesting to me, too - I've allways enjoyed reading RPG's where the authors really interested in his subject matter.. Saves me from having to do exhaustive research!

 

-CraterMaker

[Bik Britelite]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

Wow, discussions including HARN. Boy does that bring back memories. Spend hours setting up your character and roll to learn you start the game with a loincloth and the family potato.

 

Kidding aside, it does sound interesting to read, but I have not heard anything about the game yet. I imagine I will, our local store is rather good at aquiring material.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

I don't know what his distribution plans are, but he does have a website:

 

http://www.shadowstargames.com/main.htm

[mayapuppies]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

38 pages of weapon and armor stats.

117 pages of weapon and armor lists and illustrations.

26 pages of price lists, economic class details, and profession incomes

Appendix G is 25 pages of "reference charts".

19-step combat procedure.

And this would be exactly why I would pick this up.

[MarktheAnimator]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

Hello All,

I'm Mark, the maker of FI.

Anyone interested should take a look at the website, where I also have a forum: www.shadowstargames.com

 

The game may be acquired by any game store that uses Alliance Distribution, so most stores can order it. I'll also sell direct to stores, if they contact me. I'll also send out books directly to anyone that wants one, tho this takes a lot of time and I'd rather the distributors handle it...

 

Von D-Man was one of the guys that really taught me how to role play... his Champions games rock!

 

Too bad you had to move so far far away... I did send you a copy, but I think the mail svc ate it or something... I'll send another one this week.

 

The story about it being called an Interactive Storytelling Game is that when ppl asked me what kind of game it was, I told them it was a rpg... and most ppl didn't know what that was (some ppl thought it was a computer game).... ok ok.. I was talking to non-gamers.... so anyway, I started calling it an ISG instead and since I now create entirely different kinds of adventures with a structured scene based system, there is a bit more storytelling than a typical rpg.... but the system of how to do this (which isnt in this first book...it'll be in the third book, The Storyteller's Guide)...can be used for any game really... so an ISG is a type of rpg.

 

Anyway, the main difference in FI is that you can make any kind of character (well..no super heroes).... and it has fast combat... (20 minutes for 5 against 5).... which forces you to come up with more plotstuff.... So while a typical rpg will have one plot point per game session, I'll have 4, 5, 6 or more....

 

So thats the quick answer....

 

Check out the website!

 

btw, is anyone going to GTS/Origins/GenConIndy? Drop by and say hello at my booth if you are.

 

HERO system will of course remain one of my favorite games tho..

 

btw Bik, whats the name of your local game store? I'd like to send them a copy.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

Wow...looks like it's worth picking up as a reference if nothing else...

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

I received my copy today - Mark shelled out some hefty change to send it.

 

It will take me several days to work through it (its hardback and thick) - then I'll post a review.

 

One thing I noticed, however, was that the introduction says:

 

"If a player dies, he loses the game..."

 

What the hell kind of resolution mechanic is this freaking game using?!

[OddHat]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

One thing I noticed, however, was that the introduction says:

 

"If a player dies, he loses the game..."

 

What the hell kind of resolution mechanic is this freaking game using?!

 

All I know is, that's a game I want to GM.

 

[Nolgroth]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

One thing I noticed, however, was that the introduction says:

 

"If a player dies, he loses the game..."

 

What the hell kind of resolution mechanic is this freaking game using?!

Goes without saying. Well maybe he's got a spot on Cloud 9 staked out, but most people would consider player death = losing "the game."

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

Fantasy Imperium

 

I'm really not sure where to begin... ugh!

 

Three words: Fish. Barrel. Shotgun.

 

Fantasy Imperium is a role playing game created by Mark O'Bannon of Shadowstar Games. I've known Mark for years. Indeed, in his post above he credits me as being one of the guys who taught him how to "really role-play." He and I used to have discussions on characters, worlds and plots that made sense, and narrative arcs. This was way back and I was big on narrative and simulation even them. I was the primary GM for our group, but Mark was working on his home-brew system (then called En Garde) and we play tested it for him. Some might argue we broke and abused it for him. Thus I'm credited with "ideas& inspiration," which is fair enough, and with play testing. The latter isn't really accurate as there have been a lot of changes to the system since I last saw it. I recognize a lot of it, but its not the same game. After all these years the thing I'm happiest about is that he actually published it. Succeed or fail - its an accomplishment - and it takes guts. But...

 

"For you and I are past our dancing days" - Romeo and Juliet

 

The One Book Rule

 

I have a gold-standard. It goes something like this: "can I take this one book and run a game with it." No errata. No additional books. Just this one book. If I were a newbie, would it be enough? In this case the answer is no. First, there are a lot of references to writing terms that go hand in hand with the "storytelling game" concept that aren't elaborated on. Now, years ago when Mark was trying to get me to write he handed me book after book on writing (some are in this game's bibliography) so I know what he's on about, but for most readers they remain unexplained. Second, there is a lot of errata explaining big vague patches in the system on the web-site that should have been in this book (and some stuff in the book the errata should have replaced).

 

The Book

 

Its a hard-bound book of 434 pages and costs $34.99. The cover is of a gypsy woman holding a sword and a rose. She is, of course, a hottie and is showing us her cleavage. Its not to my taste, but it is a quality piece of art, and the cover isn't busy. Heterosexual fan-boys and lesbian gamers should be pleased with it. The back also has a nice piece of artwork on it - a more reasonably dressed woman with... a rose and a sword. I actually like this picture better. Its more dynamic and catches a moodier tone. The paper is bleached white and fairly heavy, but it feels a little rough. The printing is fine. Its clean, straight, and readable.

 

The Layout

 

The layout is a basic two column layout without side-bars or text boxes. It has standard headings and quotes. It also has header and footer designs, and the page numbers are inside the company logo. The designs and page-number shtick is a bit kitchy from my perspective, but its totally personal. The real layout issue I have is that the art either takes up entire pages or columns, and where it doesn't it doesn't seem to flow correctly. More time should have been put into this. The text isn't broken up much, which sidebars and text boxes could have helped with, but its not confusing and works well enough.

The Art

 

The interior art is both black and white, and grayscale. It ranges from just passable (esp. for some of the arms) to quite good. Indeed, a good chunk of it is quite good - especially some of the grayscale art. I do have some issues with the art choices though.

 

First, on the inside covers are two color maps of the Med region, one at 1121 and at 1348. This and the text (much more on this point later) seem to establish Medieval Europe as being the setting for the game. At the same time the art doesn't fit that notion because while that's the setting, the book doesn't settle on it. As a result, we have a mix of artwork that could set a historical tone for the book mixed with high fantasy pieces that are, well, totally out of this world. It doesn't jive.

 

Second: Cheesecake. No one could doubt Mark is an affirmed heterosexual male. Some of the art (though far from all of it) is gratuitous and obviously used men's magazines for the references for the poses. This makes 13th century Europe more freewheeling than Woodstock. This isn't to say fan-boys won't dig it, or that the artist's didn't have talent, but it basically screams "sex it up for sales." I'd rather see a book that sold me on mood and quality than the fact that it was a Viagra substitute.

 

Aside from the better grayscale pieces, the best art is the depictions of various types of armor in my opinion. The art for arms is good enough, and makes for a nice reference, but is hit and miss and doesn't stick to a consistent style.

 

The Language

 

Its readable, but the prose could be tightened and some of my peeves get stepped on. I won't go into detail on those as they are intensely subjective. There are also big concepts left unexplained (like a huge number of writing terms in the intro and no examples for character creation) and unless you are a very experienced gamer who has played some antediluvian systems you might be left scratching your head. There is an extensive number of docs to smooth these areas out on the company website, however.

 

The System

 

Bellcurve! Bellcurve! Wherefore art thou Bellcurve!

 

Old school. Yes, very old school. It uses random generation and percentile dice. There are ten characteristics, plus several derived stats. You roll in order, you can switch two, and for the entire character creation process (including non-characteristics) you get three re-rolls. Unless you are making a female character, in which case you get one free re-roll on appearance. A fan-boy dream-world with very few ugly women! There's also an optional female character creation system that multiplies strength by .75, dexterity by 1.1, intuition by 1.1, and attractiveness by 1.25...

 

Aesthetically pleasing ladies aside, I don't like it. Even with the re-rolls its very easy to get a character with highly disparate (and unrealistic) values. But, you also get to re-roll your character until you get one you like. At that point, why not just make it up? I would much preferred a mechanic for getting more normative results (even ancient games using percentiles tended to have this) AND an option for non-random generation. It also doesn't include an example of character creation, which is the industry standard at this time (again, there's a guide on the web site).

 

Social class follows a functional, wealth-based model, which doesn't really fit the medieval period the game is theoretically focusing on. Actually, it says it can be run in any time-period, but the prices, description of the region and its politics, religious milieu (... medieval catholocism), most of the weapons, and maps are medieval (I'm not sure how much research went into the prices).

 

There is an extensive list of professions, each with a minimum social status. You have to buy into the profession using your skill points. You must spend 75% of your skills on professional skills (and must later spend the same percentage of experience on them). You can have more than one profession if you have enough skill points, but sadly some of the coolest combinations (want to play a lord or lady who is a mage?) aren't possible based on the possible starting skill points. The skills are percentile based like most everything else in the system and are figured using a single stat, which is both unrealistic and open to abuse in my opinion. At the same time, progression is workable. One issue I have is that the skills all have brief descriptions of what they are (usually but not always self-evident), but almost never have any mechanical data attached. Nu, how does it work from a system perspective? Nu, are there guidelines?

 

The combat system is based on two second combat rounds during which you get one action. In this kind of system initiative is very important, but not all deciding. It also uses similar numbers to what happened in the En Garde system, which means its going to be deadly, but that high initiative and weapon skills can skew combat heavily one way. Also, this system has lots of hit locations and gritty options to use, which is nice for people who like "scary combats." It also has an armor calculation sheet that is reminiscent of Harnmaster, but does simulate armor well. It has over five hundred weapons and illustrations - and charts with stats for all of them. This is great as a reference, though it does make one think of chart-master. I'm neutral on most of this, but did like that the hand-to-hand combat system has several styles with lots of options you can use (the street-fighting options are stooge-heaven) that bring it to life. Its got potential if you like old-school gritty systems. Its also the best part of the rules, in my opinion.

 

The spiritual warfare is basically a "how catholic are you?" take on angels, demons, ritualism, and black magic. You get piety for praying to you know who on the crucifix. This is appropriate for the medieval period if you are playing a game focused on european christians, crusaders, and their ilk. It is an accurate representation of medieval catholic beliefs and the author doesn't waste time with being PC about it (you should take a look at his bibliography for kicks). Oddly, its still possible for an atheist to get a pretty good divine intervention roll, which is either an oversight or a sign of a wry sense of humor. This is not so good if your players aren't interested in playing good catholic boys ad girls. It does murmur you can implement other rules if you want, but there aren't options in the book. Also, I never knew angles set out to be sexpots.

 

The potential for ill-happenings while using magic, and the accrual of fate points, which can serve as a (negative) drama mechanic are interesting. The spells are a-historical in that it doesn't mirror the books target era and includes a lot of high-fantasy tropes that would be hard to work into most historical settings. More work should have been done on making the magic suitable for "the real world," though there are some clever ideas. I would have much rather seen a narrower set of magic with spells that make sense for medieval europe, or a group of magic types that could be worked into varying historical settings. Also, often times the book gives an open-ended description of the spells effects with no actual mechanical method for handling it. The GM just has to make it up in a lot of cases. That's great from a story perspective, but not so much from a resolution perspective. At the same time, when you cut out the large number of standard fantasy spells, there are some very cool plot advancing spells that are quite original, and could be used in some very interesting ways.

 

One weird bit is that the game has a story mantra, but it has almost no contemporary mechanics for ensuring the narrative dominates play - though it leaves so much unsaid that the GM is forced to make some things up rather than leverage mechanics for resolution (esp. with skills and spells). It does have luck-points, but this is a basic re-roll mechanic, though you can burn five luck points at any time to save your kiester hands down. You can have up to 25 luck points at a given time. I'm still trying to fathom a game in which a player re-rolled 25 botches, or saved himself from certain death 5 times. It seems wide-open for... well, let's just say WOW! Presumably keeping a strong narrative flow is covered in the coming storyteller's guide (it isn't in this book), but that violates my one book rule - and the other book isn't in print yet.

 

The Content

 

This book can't decide whether it wants to be a historical fantasy game (approaching one or more periods) or a universal fantasy game. It settles on the first and then tries to do the second. Almost all the rest of it I can ignore, but this I can't - and the reason is the books potential. It has a lot of it, but then it zigs and zags and doesn't achieve it. For instance:

 

It includes a section on fantasy races (five of them) that look like standard DnD fare. Why? Aside from Elvish and Dwarvish armor (1 suit each) there is no information on how these creatures relate to the historical period (or any historical period) and they aren't mentioned in the overview of nation states. They're just there - along with a bunch of high-fantasy art scattered through the book. This would have been better handled in one of two ways: 1) put them in another book entirely where they can get full treatment, as well as an alternate time-line integrating them into the historical milieu, or 2) put them and the art into an appendix in the back instead of spreading them throughout a book they don't appear to relate to. Were it me I'd have gone with #1.

 

It presents arms and armor from the roman period to the high medieval period (cool!), but only presents geopolitical information for 1121 to 1348 - and doesn't have a time-line of that period, let alone the period covered by the arms and armor! It also presents the spiritual warfare in the context of one group in the narrow medieval period mentioned (as I noted before), but doesn't give me any options for the other periods that I might use it for, or other faiths (or societies) that players might want to make characters for. And this is where the book fails in my mind.

 

I would have much rather seen a historical role-playing game that saved the high-fantasy option for a supplement and focused on giving me more information on running historical fantasy, either in a broad swath or eras (as the arms and armor represent), or a narrow medieval period (as the rest of the information seems to represent) with more information on institutions, societies, mores, and magic that fits the mood and feel of the period. I would also have rather seen a magic system that contained spells that were appropriate to historical fantasy rather than classic high fantasy FRPGs.

 

Summary

 

Man... Mark is going to kill me for this review.

 

And I really did want to be pleased.

 

At the same time, there are a lot of neat bits some might really like:

• It is a great historical arms and armor reference.
  
• It has a nice, albeit basic, geopolitical overview of the high middle ages.
  
• It provides a pretty accurate view of medieval catholocism vis-a-vis spiritualism.
  
• It has some clever ideas (fate accrual, specific spells) in the magic system.
  
• It has a workable gritty old-school combat system.
  
• The underlying mechanics, sans the missing bell-curve, are workable, consistent, and old-school.

There you have it,

 

Vondy

[Bik Britelite]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

btw Bik' date=' whats the name of your local game store? I'd like to send them a copy.[/quote']

 

Game store is "Patch and Crow's Nest." They order from Alliance, as do almost every gaming store, its one of the only distributors. Back order FTW! At least that's what they always say.

[Kristopher]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

I really don't want to pile on, but reading the wikipedia entry for Fantasy Imperium reminds me of a certain gaming company with a rather self-important attitude towards "the correct way to play our game".

 

Fantasy Imperium uses advanced storytelling techniques, with the Storyteller writing a series of scripted scenes for the plot. The external story is created by the Storyteller, while the internal story is created by the players. Internal stories involve the character's inner needs and overcoming character flaws.

 

At least by this description, it also sounds like the intent is for the Storyteller* to predetermine a lot more of the outcome of each encounter/scene than is traditional with other RPGs, and therefore less-interactive and less player / PC driven.

 

 

* Isn't this just begging for attention from White Wolf's lawyers?

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

 

 

* Isn't this just begging for attention from White Wolf's lawyers?

 

Only if White Wolf wants to open a can of worm in terms of trying to claim trademark/copyright on a common English word that was used in similar, but not identical, contexts, before they came onto the scene. I recall a few old-old games that refer to GMs job as telling a story, or likening the GM to a storyteller, though they didn't specifically call him a storyteller. They certainly could lawyer-up, but they'd be following in Marvel's footsteps if they tried, and winning would be far from certain. White Wolf coalesced a lot of ideas in a unique package, but the ideas themselves were far from original - and mark can back himself up with all those writing books he's got in the bibliography. I think WW would be more likely to sniff derisively and mutter "poseur" without bothering to check the mirrors themselves (they aint artistes). "See our glorious influence?"

[Kristopher]

Re: Fantasy Imperium?

 

Only if White Wolf wants to open a can of worm in terms of trying to claim trademark/copyright on a common English word that was used in similar' date=' but not identical, contexts, before they came onto the scene. I recall a few old-old games that refer to GMs job as telling a story, or likening the GM to a storyteller, though they didn't specifically call him a storyteller. They certainly could lawyer-up, but they'd be following in Marvel's footsteps if they tried, and winning would be far from certain. White Wolf coalesced a lot of ideas in a unique package, but the ideas themselves were far from original - and mark can back himself up with all those writing books he's got in the bibliography. I think WW would be more likely to sniff derisively and mutter "poseur" without bothering to check the mirrors themselves (they aint artistes). "See our glorious influence?"[/quote']

 

Maybe my opinion of White Wolf is affecting how likely I think it is.