[Review] CU: News Of The World (+ Long Argument On MPA's & Frameworks)

[death tribble]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Quite frankly I am glad they kept the previous art. I do not want to have my images from Champions and CKC sullied by art of the caliber that's currently being put out. Not to offend the artists, but I continue to be disappointed with the *new* art in the new Hero system books (since about DC:TAS and Teen Champions). There is some that is good, but in general it is not as high a quality as the first few books in the line. I am still buying the books, so I guess it must not be a deal-breaker for me. But spend the money elsewhere rather than commissioning new, crummy pictures of characters, when previous, good pictures are available.

 

Edit: Looking back at the book again, there is not much new art, and about a third of it is alright to good. But still not, IMO, at the level of CKC art.

 

Well here I disagree. I don't much like the original gray scale art.

And just because it don't have great art does not mean I won't buy it. However consider Ankylosaur for a second. He loses the armour entirely and has to have it rebuilt by a different manufacturer with added powers. That would scream new pic to me kind of like Iron Man and his change of armours.

 

Where someone is powered up a bit but then does not change substantially then yeah keep the old pic.

 

However I do see Killer Shrike's point.

 

There are however some people who commission art and we could ask them to get the pic in colour for us. And if you ask Steve nicely he may allow us to have a colour pic of say Lady Blue etc done for the board.

[name_tamer]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

DT, I think we're mostly on the same page.

 

Well here I disagree. I don't much like the original gray scale art.

 

Of course, opinions vary. I would prefer lineart to gray scale art as well. That said, I'd prefer what is (by my own standards) a good gray scale piece to (what I judge to be) a poor lineart piece. And not all of it is even poor -- some of it is just not very comic-booky. (Example: why do none of Hurricane, Spektr, Stalker, and Valak -- all by same artist -- have eyes? Super hero comic book characters should IMO have eyes, unless it's part of their schtick.)

 

And just because it don't have great art does not mean I won't buy it.

 

Likewise.

 

However consider Ankylosaur for a second. He loses the armour entirely and has to have it rebuilt by a different manufacturer with added powers. That would scream new pic to me kind of like Iron Man and his change of armours.

 

I agree. And don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a new pic, properly executed. But it seems like for whatever reason, probably the money, "properly executed" is a hit-or-miss proposition in HERO books right now. And if it's a poorly-executed pic of a character that I already have a good published pic of, I'd just as soon have more characters, and less art, in the book.

 

There are however some people who commission art and we could ask them to get the pic in colour for us. And if you ask Steve nicely he may allow us to have a colour pic of say Lady Blue etc done for the board.

 

I love looking at the art threads, etc. on the board, but that will never stop making me want to have better art in the actual books. Oh well, I'll just have to keep waiting.

[name_tamer]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

My only gripe is that the updated Kinetik is the version from Ultimate Speedster, with his glaring flaw left uncorrected.

A world-class speedster should not start gasping for breath after running full-speed for only 10 seconds.

9 END per Phase on Running, SPD 10 and 50 END are not a good combination.

 

Wow, no kidding, I hadn't noticed that. Looks like he'll take 3 of his 10 phases taking recoveries -- oops, only has an 8 REC.

[name_tamer]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

I don't know if I'd agree. Diamond is about as good at delivering damage as Brawler, only he's more versatile. Diadem has a fairly big telepathic whammy. They aren't lacking in oomph, Drifter aside.

 

One minor irk though: Dr Vox really should ditch the Personal Immunity she has on nearly all her multipower slots. Given how much Flash Defense and Sonic Damage Reduction she already has, its essentially wasted.

 

More PI strangeness: Hydro has personal immunity on a Damage Shield.

[Metaphysician]

Re: [Review] CU: News Of The World (+ Long Argument On MPA's & Frameworks)

 

Sounds like a plan.

 

 

You selected a straw man construct to set out how abusive an EC could be if allowed to MPA - a construct no GM would allow. I simply showed how to achieve as, or more, abusive results without the EC. CONCLUSION: The MPA restriction is not an effective means of containing abuse.

 

If, in fact, its sole result was to eliminate one possible abuse, I would take no issued with the restriction. But that isn't the only result, and the others include some which I consider inappropriate and detrimental to balance. The cure is worse than the disease.

 

I find the MPA restriction arbitrary and, if intended to enforce balance, ineffectual. I have the same issue with the 0 END rule. Consider two hypothetical EC's.

 

The first has a 12d6 Energy Blast, a +24/+24 Force Field at 1/2 END and 30" of Flight. Cost: 120 points. No MPA's.

 

The second has a 3d6 NND Energy Blast (30), a 6d6 Flash (15), +12/+12 Armor (costs END) (14), +12/+12 Force Field (0 END) (21) and 30" of flight (45). Cost: [slot costs behind each slot] 125 points.

 

Both are, in large part, identical in function. Each grants +24/+24 defenses at an END cost of 2 per phase, although we had to work to squeeze that in on the second one. A limitation on the FF that it can only be used in proportion to the Armor would both bring the cost closer in line and bring the END usage closer in line. Each allows 30" flight.

 

But the first allows 60 AP of attack to be brought to bear in a phase, where the second does not. Why? What balance reason is there for this?

 

Consider another example. Let's assume we have a character concept who will have that same Force Field, the same flight, and four 60 AP attacks. We need to build the character.

 

Character 1 purchases this as an EC. It costs him 210 points, He can use the Force Field, Flight and one attack at a time.

 

Character 2 puts the Force Field, Flight and one attack in his EC, costing 120 points. He buys a 60 point MP pool and three slots for the other three attacks. Cost 78 points. That's a total of 198 points, a 12 point savings. He can use the force field, fly and MPA the EC attack with any one of the MP attacks. If his EC is drained or suppressed, he still has three attack powers to choose from. He is more versatile at less cost. Is that "balanced"?

 

Character 3 puts the FF and Flight in an EC for 90 points, and puts all four attacks in an MP for 84 points. He is identical in function to Character 1, except that his attacks aren't adjusted with the EC powers. He saved 36 points. Equal or superior abilities, with a 17% point savings. Again, I don't see this as balanced.

 

Character 4 operates like Character 3, but he invests those extra 36 points to make his 4 MP slots flexible (24 points) and bumps the pool 12 points, so he can mix & match his attacks. Same cost, more flexibility.

 

The EC consistently gets overshadowed by Two Framework Man.

 

It costs more to put multiple attacks in an EC than it does to put them in a Multipower. Therefore, the EC should have greater functionaility. As the rules stand, it does not. It actually is less functional due to the "drain one, drain all" aspect of the EC.

 

It costs even more to buy multiple attacks separately. That approach avoids the restrictions of the EC, so it has greater functionality.

 

More cost = more functionality should be the rule. Denying MPA's for EC's breaches that rule.

 

Do there need to be some restrictions on EC's? Sure. They should be more restricted than buying powers straight out for full cost. But these restrictions should not be unique to attack powers and they should not make the purchase of multiple attacks through an EC less effective and/or more expensive than using an alternative framework. The MPA restrictions, if aimed at balancing EC's (and I'm less than convinced that is their purpose) fail miserably in achieving that objective.

 

 

Oh, I guess I should post something considered to be on topic. "The CU DEX ranges are strange". Is that a better comment on a review of CU: NOTW?

 

 

 

I think the main reason I find the argument vaguely uninteresting is, MPAing on the cheap is one of the few reasons why you'd even *want* to use an EC for your active powers. Okay, lets use for example the guy with 30 points of EC, and two 60 AP slots, a 20/20 0 END force field and a 20" 0 END Flight.

 

He could buy his offensive powers as EC slots, for 30 points each. Or, he could buy a multipower. The thing is, even buying two slots, the multipower is now just as cost effective, even losing the EC cost break. And the multipower is easier to upgrade with more slots. So, there has to be a reason to favor the EC.

 

One possible reason, is yes, MPAs. The problem is, using the EC for that purpose, your effectively throwing several simultaneous 60 AP attacks, despite not having paid the points for them. Each additional such attack adds only 30 points of cost. The only way to add more attacks cheaper is through abusing the multiple foci rules.

 

Now, you could instead throw multiple lesser attacks as an MPA. . . except that kills the benefits of the EC. Reducing the total value of the offensive EC slots means you have to reduce the base value of the EC, greatly reducing the point break on the Flight and Force Field. More importantly, you can do the exact same attack via a Multipower, either by having several multi slots, or a single compound power slot. All for minimal cost.

 

The other value to an EC, is the lack of an AP cap, thus allowing you to build a slot thats more powerful than the others while still retaining the EC cost break. This is only useful, though, if a slot is allowed to exceed the campaign AP cap for design purposes. . . and the more it exceeds it, the less benefit the EC grants.

 

All in all, there are only a few situations where I could see an EC being worthwhile without being horribly broken. One is for a character that only has one attack that they want to put in the EC. The other is if a character has a number of powers they want active all the time, irrespective of their offense, and so they put them all in an EC while still sticking their main offense in a multipower.

 

 

[Metaphysician]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

More PI strangeness: Hydro has personal immunity on a Damage Shield.

 

*Technically* it could be of use, if the target has some kind of absorbtion/reflection power schtick. Of course, given how weak Damage Shield's tend to be. . .

[name_tamer]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

One of the new characters I like best is Nocturne' date=' who is almost exactly like a character from one of my old Champions campaigns from...uh...1995 or 1996...called BrainDrain.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I really found her cool as well. Interesting power for a street-level character.

[name_tamer]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

There should never be any reason to say characters were cut due to size issues when there's 3 blank pages in the book' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

Repped.

[name_tamer]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

There are however some people who commission art

 

What an extremely humble way to say this. Have some rep for being one of those people.

[Zed-F]

Re: [Review] CU: News Of The World (+ Long Argument On MPA's & Frameworks)

 

 

I find the MPA restriction arbitrary and, if intended to enforce balance, ineffectual. I have the same issue with the 0 END rule. Consider two hypothetical EC's.

 

The first has a 12d6 Energy Blast, a +24/+24 Force Field at 1/2 END and 30" of Flight. Cost: 120 points. No MPA's.

 

The second has a 3d6 NND Energy Blast (30), a 6d6 Flash (15), +12/+12 Armor (costs END) (14), +12/+12 Force Field (0 END) (21) and 30" of flight (45). Cost: [slot costs behind each slot] 125 points.

 

That second EC is rather inefficiently built, though.

Let's try again.

 

EC 1: Control Cost (15) 12d6 attack (45) 12/12 FF (15) 15" Flight (15)

Total 90

 

EC 2: Control Cost (15) 3d6 NND (15) 3d6 Drain (15) 12/12 FF (15) 15" Flight (15)

Total 75

 

Hmm, EC 2 has equivalent AP attacks if allowed to MPA, and is identical in every other way, and yet costs 15 points less. How about that. It gets even better if you reduce the slots to 20 AP slots, and/or allow more attacks to be MPAed. If you don't allow MPAs, then is it weaker? Sure thing. But most people don't put multiple attack powers in ECs to begin with, for that reason. Moreover, since fewer points were paid, it *should* be weaker.

 

Consider another example. Let's assume we have a character concept who will have that same Force Field, the same flight, and four 60 AP attacks. We need to build the character.

 

Character 1 purchases this as an EC. It costs him 210 points, He can use the Force Field, Flight and one attack at a time.

 

Character 2 puts the Force Field, Flight and one attack in his EC, costing 120 points. He buys a 60 point MP pool and three slots for the other three attacks. Cost 78 points. That's a total of 198 points, a 12 point savings. He can use the force field, fly and MPA the EC attack with any one of the MP attacks. If his EC is drained or suppressed, he still has three attack powers to choose from. He is more versatile at less cost. Is that "balanced"?

It certainly is less imbalanced than allowing the EC character to MPA and get 12x4 DCs of attack at once! And no, you can't MPA an attack from one framework with an attack from another framework, by the rules. You can only MPA with an attack bought outside a framework.

 

The EC consistently gets overshadowed by Two Framework Man.

Almost certainly a lesser evil than allowing ECs with 4x12DC attacks to MPA in a 12DC game. Even if you only allow ECs to MPA two attacks in that scenario, you'll just get ECs that have exactly two attacks.

 

More cost = more functionality should be the rule. Denying MPA's for EC's breaches that rule.

Funny, seems the other way around. If you allow MPAs for ECs, you get equal or more functionality for less cost, depending on how good you are at splitting your EC up into bite-sized chunks.

 

The MPA restrictions, if aimed at balancing EC's (and I'm less than convinced that is their purpose) fail miserably in achieving that objective.

If you say so. Nevertheless, they are there for a reason. If you want to relax those restrictions and put others in their place for your game, feel free, but not everyone likes to tinker with the rules. Ostensibly, at least, pretty much every rule is there for balance, or made with balance as a consideration. If not, why do you think the rules on MPAs and frameworks are there?

 

 

I wonder why they thought re-adding Pantera was needed? Never really liked the character to begin with...

[Kirby]

Re: [Review] CU: News Of The World (+ Long Argument On MPA's & Frameworks)

 

I wonder why they thought re-adding Pantera was needed? Never really liked the character to begin with...

Probably for two reasons (from the posts I've seen): 1) The vast majority of players who are familiar with 4E Eurostar have given legitimate complaints of how much weaker 5E Eurostar was/is; and 2) The vast majority of players who liked 4E Eurostar liked Pantera as well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: [Review] CU: News Of The World (+ Long Argument On MPA's & Frameworks)

 

 

I wonder why they thought re-adding Pantera was needed? Never really liked the character to begin with...

 

Apparently some people did though.

[Kirby]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

There should never be any reason to say characters were cut due to size issues when there's 3 blank pages in the book' date=' IMO.[/quote']

Repped.

Ditto.

[Silbeg]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

More PI strangeness: Hydro has personal immunity on a Damage Shield.

 

Yeah, I noticed that one, too. Especially odd, since Steve Long has often said that Personal Immunity is implied with Damage Shield.

[Zed-F]

Re: [Review] CU: News Of The World (+ Long Argument On MPA's & Frameworks)

 

I guess I'd have preferred to see a new face join Eurostar, if it needed a power boost. One that was a bit less of a loose cannon. Different strokes, I suppose.

[Silbeg]

Re: [Review] CU: News Of The World (+ Long Argument On MPA's & Frameworks)

 

In any case, I have to say that what I have read I already like in the book. Got it yesterday, and consumed about 25% of it. There are a s***-ton of character write-ups...

 

Finally, the Champions have the staying power to merit their reputation!

[Kirby]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

What does 5th edition Pantera look like (She was a favorite of mine)?

Same here. My 4E character Cavalier had flight' date=' N-ray vision and Regeneration as a sem-brick. There was a strange coincidence that he'd always end up fighting people with blades or claws. Despite Pantera using him as a cat toy, I liked her best from Eurostar. Definitely one you loved to hate.

Hot in a skeezy, scary...kind of way.

This part is nice.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: [Review] CU: News Of The World (+ Long Argument On MPA's & Frameworks)

 

I guess I'd have preferred to see a new face join Eurostar' date=' if it needed a power boost. One that was a bit less of a loose cannon. Different strokes, I suppose.[/quote']

 

{shrugs} So don't use her, or don't use her as part of Eurostar.

 

Actually, they also got der Westgote (or however its spelled), and he's pretty tough.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

More PI strangeness: Hydro has personal immunity on a Damage Shield.

 

It's a No Range electricity effect on a character who spends a lot of time underwater. That makes Personal Immunity a good idea.

[Kirby]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

It's a No Range electricity effect on a character who spends a lot of time underwater.

Option A Response: So he's part electric eel?

 

Option B Response: Hydro Electric? Damn!

[incrdbil]

Re: [Review] CU: News Of The World (+ Long Argument On MPA's & Frameworks)

 

So' date=' that aside. . . who wants to drop Valak on their players? I know I do. [/quote']

 

Yeah--hes just right to challenge my PBEM group now.

[MitchellS]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

How about this question: Is 5E less of a threat than her 4E counterpart (like much of 5E Eurostar - a complaint that's been mentioned by several)' date=' about the same level of threat (which can include adjustments to go from the 250 to 350 basic game), or did they make her even scarier to face?[/quote']

Pantera looks like a goth-chick with Sasquatch-furry forearms and calves.

 

Power wise, at 390 points she's probably one of the least powerful members. They gave her a 30 dex and 2 levels HtH and 2 levels with DCV. I'd have just gone with the 35 dex for 10 points less cost [those Hero guys just hate any number over 30].

[MitchellS]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

It's a No Range electricity effect on a character who spends a lot of time underwater. That makes Personal Immunity a good idea.

That seems a little crunchy for the game. I wouldn't require a player's underwater character to take personal immunity for something like that. Sometimes you gotta run with the special effects.

[ghost-angel]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Pantera looks like a goth-chick with Sasquatch-furry forearms and calves.

 

Power wise, at 390 points she's probably one of the least powerful members. They gave her a 30 dex and 2 levels HtH and 2 levels with DCV. I'd have just gone with the 35 dex for 10 points less cost [those Hero guys just hate any number over 30].

 

Actually, since Pantera was genetically altered her stats are Absolute Human Maximum, which the CU seems to have placed at 30 (see: Teleios) for all stats but INT (which is 50). They have been consistant with this aspect.

[MitchellS]

Re: [book Review] Champions Universe: News Of The World

 

Actually' date=' since Pantera was genetically altered her stats are Absolute Human Maximum, which the CU seems to have placed at 30 (see: Teleios) for all stats but INT (which is 50). They have been consistant with this aspect.[/quote']

She was genetically altered to have animal genes introduced into her not to be a perfect human specimen. As such it would've been perfectly acceptable to have some stats higher then human perfect. As I've said before, with only 2 characters in the CU with a "superhuman" dex it seems pointless to have the benchmark at all.