[Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

[MitchellS]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Low DEX gives the advantage to defense, high DEX gives the advantage to offense.

 

Is it unbalanced? I don't think so. The alternative would be almost every fight would be won by the character with the higher DEX.

The balance has always been the fact that the lower dex character can act before his dex when doing defensive actions [aborting evened out the odds].

 

Currently there is still action economy to consider; the 1 DEX defender is defending at the expense of taking offensive actions.

The problem is that the deflector isn't losing all of his offensive actions thanks to Steve's ruling. If both character have the same speed then the 1 dex character gets to deflect 100% of the time and attack 50% of the time:

 

Assuming they both have a 6 speed:

Phase 12: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 2: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects, then 1 dex shoots back.

Phase 4: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 6: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects, then 1 dex shoots back.

Phase 8: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 10: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects, then 1 dex shoots back.

 

1 dex gets 6 chances to deflect and 3 chances to attack with his 6 speed. 35 dex gets no additional benefit from all that extra initiative or his 6 speed.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ponderance....

 

How is anyone getting three half phase actions in a phase?

The character is getting a free phase 2 deflect due to having a lower dex. After deflecting on phase 2 the character can then half move and attack in the same phase. That's 3 attack actions in one phase.

 

And how is giving them the ability to go first next phase going to rebalance anything?

Because if the deflector gets to go first on phase 2 he's losing that "free" deflect the new ruling is giving him and is left with his 2 normal half phase action choices.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

I see what you're saying.

 

What if DEX 35 holds his action until DEX 1, knowing he can beat the slower guy in a DEX vs DEX roll (16 vs 9)? He knows the guy can deflect his attacks, but once he commits himself to an action, he's wide open.

[MitchellS]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

The scariest part of Steve's ruling is that it takes away the speed advantage as well because the potential to deflect stays in effect until the start of your next phase. Imagine if the 35 dex character has a 7 speed and the 1 dex has a 6:

 

Phase 12: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 2: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects and shoots back.

Phase 4: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 6: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects and shoots back.

Phase 7: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex aborts to his deflect.

Phase 8: 1 dex aborted.

Phase 9: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects from his abort.

Phase 10: 1 dex shoots.

Phase 11: 35 dex shoot, 1 dex aborts to his deflect.

Phase 12: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects from his abort.

 

This ruling changes everything.

[MitchellS]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

I see what you're saying.

 

What if DEX 35 holds his action until DEX 1, knowing he can beat the slower guy in a DEX vs DEX roll (16 vs 9)? He knows the guy can deflect his attacks, but once he commits himself to an action, he's wide open.

If we want every combat with a missile deflector to come down to a dex roll then we might as well change the nature of the game system.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

The scariest part of Steve's ruling is that it takes away the speed advantage as well because the potential to deflect stays in effect until the start of your next phase. Imagine if the 35 dex character has a 7 speed and the 1 dex has a 6:

 

Phase 12: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 2: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects and shoots back.

Phase 4: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 6: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects and shoots back.

Phase 7: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex aborts to his deflect.

Phase 8: 1 dex aborted.

Phase 9: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects from his abort.

Phase 10: 1 dex shoots.

Phase 11: 35 dex shoot, 1 dex aborts to his deflect.

Phase 12: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects from his abort.

 

This ruling changes everything.

 

It just clarifies that Reflection is the closest thing in the rules there is to a Ranged Damage Shield. Both can be used to model a 'triggered' attack of opportunity. It does seem to require a bit of Speed and Dex chart knowledge though.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

The scariest part of Steve's ruling is that it takes away the speed advantage as well because the potential to deflect stays in effect until the start of your next phase. Imagine if the 35 dex character has a 7 speed and the 1 dex has a 6:

 

Phase 12: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 2: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects and shoots back.

Phase 4: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 6: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects and shoots back.

Phase 7: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex aborts to his deflect.

Phase 8: 1 dex aborted.

Phase 9: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects from his abort.

Phase 10: 1 dex shoots.

Phase 11: 35 dex shoot, 1 dex aborts to his deflect.

Phase 12: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects from his abort.

 

This ruling changes everything.

 

Look at the whole picture here. Assuming no applicable skill levels, a 1 DEX character has 1 CV. A 35 DEXer has 7. The 1 DEX guy has maybe a 10% chance to deflect any given shot, meaning he'll actually block one about every other turn. He has about the same chance to hit the 35 DEXer. The 35 DEX guy hits 99.5% of the time, minus that small chance of one actually getting blocked.

 

And if the 1 DEX guy has bought skads of combat skill levels and the 35 DEX guy hasn't, well, then they're more balanced combat-wise than a simple "1 DEX vs 35 DEX" statement would seem to imply.

[MitchellS]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

It just clarifies that Reflection is the closest thing in the rules there is to a Ranged Damage Shield. Both can be used to model a 'triggered' attack of opportunity. It does seem to require a bit of Speed and Dex chart knowledge though.

I wasn't using reflection. That is just normal missile deflection and then attacking with some other ranged attack.

[MitchellS]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Look at the whole picture here. Assuming no applicable skill levels, a 1 DEX character has 1 CV. A 35 DEXer has 7. The 1 DEX guy has maybe a 10% chance to deflect any given shot, meaning he'll actually block one about every other turn. He has about the same chance to hit the 35 DEXer. The 35 DEX guy hits 99.5% of the time, minus that small chance of one actually getting blocked.

 

And if the 1 DEX guy has bought skads of combat skill levels and the 35 DEX guy hasn't, well, then they're more balanced combat-wise than a simple "1 DEX vs 35 DEX" statement would seem to imply.

The CV issue is irrelevant because it is very simple to buy many levels with missile deflection. 35 dex guy spent 75 points on dex and 25 points on the 7 speed. 1 dex guy spend -27 on dex, 49 on speed, 20 on missile deflection, and 22 on deflection levels. 35 dex guy spent 100 points, 1 dex guy spent 64. 1 dex guy can buy 18 levels with his range attack with the extra 36 points. Assuming they both have the same d6 of attack 1 dex guy is going to beat the crap out of 35 dex guy.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

I wasn't using reflection. That is just normal missile deflection and then attacking with some other ranged attack.

 

Then it's just taking advantage of the speed chart. There's no rule stating that the higher DEX character can't act on a lower DEX as well. Wonderful detail stuff to explore in a duel maybe. But it all hinges on the Ranged Attacks NOT being AOE.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

The CV issue is irrelevant because it is very simple to buy many levels with missile deflection. 35 dex guy spent 75 points on dex and 25 points on the 7 speed. 1 dex guy spend -27 on dex' date=' 49 on speed, 20 on missile deflection, and 22 on deflection levels. 35 dex guy spent 100 points, 1 dex guy spent 64. 1 dex guy can buy 18 levels with his range attack with the extra 36 points. Assuming they both have the same d6 of attack 1 dex guy is going to beat the crap out of 35 dex guy.[/quote']

 

So then 1 DEX guy is built in a way to optimize taking out an energy blaster without an area effect. He's a one trick pony. He's not a contender against a brick, mentalist, martial artist. Even the energy blaster can use an area effect and 1 DEX guy has essentially no chance to dive for cover.

 

EDIT: and like Hyper-Man said, and I pointed out earlier, 35 DEX Man can hold his action and severely limit the 1 DEX Wonder's offensive ability.

[MitchellS]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Then it's just taking advantage of the speed chart. There's no rule stating that the higher DEX character can't act on a lower DEX as well. Wonderful detail stuff to explore in a duel maybe. But it all hinges on the Ranged Attacks NOT being AOE.

All of which has nothing to do with the fact that Steve's new ruling gives all the advantage to lower dex characters who use missile deflection.

[MitchellS]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

So then 1 DEX guy is built in a way to optimize taking out an energy blaster without an area effect. He's a one trick pony. He's not a contender against a brick, mentalist, martial artist. Even the energy blaster can use an area effect and 1 DEX guy has essentially no chance to dive for cover.

 

EDIT: and like Hyper-Man said, and I pointed out earlier, 35 DEX Man can hold his action and severely limit the 1 DEX Wonder's offensive ability.

It has nothing to do with being a one-trick pony. The rules exploit will work the same way if one character has a 35 dex and the other a 33. Any character with missile deflection is going to get the opportunity to deflect 100% of the time and attack 50% of the time. They might not always hit or always deflect but they're getting 50% more actions then any other character.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

It has nothing to do with being a one-trick pony. The rules exploit will work the same way if one character has a 35 dex and the other a 33. Any character with missile deflection is going to get the opportunity to deflect 100% of the time and attack 50% of the time. They might not always hit or always deflect but they're getting 50% more actions then any other character.

 

Once again, assuming that any other character doesn't change their tactics to take the missile reflection into effect. I don't see it as incredibly unbalancing unless the guy attacking Missile Deflector Man is a moron.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

I see what you're saying.

 

What if DEX 35 holds his action until DEX 1, knowing he can beat the slower guy in a DEX vs DEX roll (16 vs 9)? He knows the guy can deflect his attacks, but once he commits himself to an action, he's wide open.

 

Note that, if 35 DEX has missile deflection, he cannot duplicate the ability of the 1 DEX character. At 35 DEX, he must choose whether to missile deflect. He cannot let his last missile deflect carry over. The 1 DEX character effectively can. By spending less points, he gains an advantage. That sits poorly with me.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Note that' date=' if 35 DEX has missile deflection, he cannot duplicate the ability of the 1 DEX character. At 35 DEX, he must choose whether to missile deflect. He cannot let his last missile deflect carry over. The 1 DEX character effectively can. By spending less points, he gains an advantage. That sits poorly with me.[/quote']

 

But 35 DEX can delay until 1 DEX Character decides to attack. At that point 35 DEX can make a DEX roll to attack first and if he wins (which is likely) 1 DEX cannot abort to a defensive action since his attack has already been declared. See page 360 5ER for details.

[Balabanto]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Hyper Man is correct.

 

The real reason things need to work this way is that it gives people a reason to buy a DEX below the top of the chart.

 

Rewarding DEX escalation is not in the best interests of your game, or the game as a whole.

 

Plus, the game becomes not fun, seriously not fun, when the right of way goes to the guy with the highest OCV, who is, not coincidentally, by virtue of his high DEX, the guy with the highest DCV.

 

Missile Deflection is relatively tiny in the scheme of things. Also, the way the rules have been reworked, missile deflection is the ONLY, and I repeat, the ONLY way that a low dex character can act before a high dex character in a phase and not be outmatched, since you can deflect twice and THEN attack, but you can't hold actions over.

 

Let me repeat the following two sets of actions.

 

Previous to 5th edition

 

I wait for the villain to come up the stairs, and then blast the stairs out from under him.

 

5th edition

 

I perform a cover maneuver on the stairs at -2. The trigger for my action is the villain coming into sight.

 

This penalizes low DEX characters enough, thank you.

 

It's already bad enough that this rule produces ridiculous amounts of mexican standoffs where everyone is covering everyone else at -2, but that penalty is enough to blow up your gameworld when that nuclear missile is about to launch.

 

If this were "Realistic System, 5th edition Revised," Mitchell, I'd probably support you. But this is HERO system. Where's the heroism there?

 

Missile Deflection at least provides for the possibility that the little guy can beat the big guy.

 

And that's part of what being a hero is all about.

[Enforcer84]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

The scariest part of Steve's ruling is that it takes away the speed advantage as well because the potential to deflect stays in effect until the start of your next phase. Imagine if the 35 dex character has a 7 speed and the 1 dex has a 6:

 

Phase 12: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 2: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects and shoots back.

Phase 4: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects.

Phase 6: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects and shoots back.

Phase 7: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex aborts to his deflect.

Phase 8: 1 dex aborted.

Phase 9: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects from his abort.

Phase 10: 1 dex shoots.

Phase 11: 35 dex shoot, 1 dex aborts to his deflect.

Phase 12: 35 dex shoots, 1 dex deflects from his abort.

 

This ruling changes everything.

I don't think you're right.

In your example, the guy aborts his phase 8 to act on phase 7. His missile deflection only works until his Phase 8. Not 10. He Aborted to act earlier but phase 8 is still his action phase.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

I don't think you're right.

In your example, the guy aborts his phase 8 to act on phase 7. His missile deflection only works until his Phase 8. Not 10. He Aborted to act earlier but phase 8 is still his action phase.

 

I believe that he is implying that 1 DEX is continuing the same Missile Deflection sequence started on Phase 7.

 

Assuming Phase 7's was successful he can continue that same sequence on Phase 9 at the normal -2 cumulative penalty for multiple Missle Deflect (or Block) attempts.

[Enforcer84]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

I believe that he is implying that 1 DEX is continuing the same Missile Deflection sequence started on Phase 7.

 

Assuming Phase 7's was successful he can continue that same sequence on Phase 9 at the normal -2 cumulative penalty for multiple Missle Deflect (or Block) attempts.

Yeah, but I don't think it works like that. I asked Steve myself. I could be wrong. I'll survive if I am.

 

After posting I was wondering why I was bothering with "Missile Defense Dude" anyway.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Yeah, but I don't think it works like that. I asked Steve myself. I could be wrong. I'll survive if I am.

 

After posting I was wondering why I was bothering with "Missile Defense Dude" anyway.

 

Good question. I'm too tired to look it up right now though. I'll check out Steve's response in the morning.

[Vondy]

Re: Ponderance....

 

Okay. If he's faster than me, and I have Missile deflect vs. anything, I use this tactic anyway.

 

 

I wouldn't allow it.

 

An NND shouldn't be stopped by Missile Deflection unless the FX of the Missle Deflection fits into the general parameters of those things the NND doesn't effect. He paid +1 on that attack for a reason. Its not a normal ranged attack that would be affected by the "anything" level of Missile Deflection (anything really means it includes any mechanically normative attack and missile deflection counts a normal defense in my book). Searing Heat is an NND, which indicates its only stopped by a logical set of FXs.

 

At the same time, if we remove meta-gaming assumptions, would Firewing really throw that attack first? He probably knows she's tough, but that doesn't mean he would necessary forego his most visually impressive and macho attack for efficiency. This is situational and dependent on what the two of them know about one another, especially past experiences they may have had.

 

Its possible Firewing would get munched on a simple tactical (meta-gaming) error (i.e., using a different opening move). On the other hand, he has the SPD/DEX advantage, and if he is smart enough to throw Searing Heat first, I don't believe gravity nixes heat without really stretching FX assumptions about fundamental forces to the limits of believability.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

Of course the 35 DEX guy could just grapple the 1 DEX guy to prevent him from missile deflecting and, if as is common, the energy blast (or whatever attack) originates from his hands he can now blast away without that pesky missile deflection getting in his way. Or, he could shoot something that then collapses on the I DEX guy. Or he could get the 1 DEX guy to chase him and find an area where he could attack from behind by surprise. Combat isn’t just standing around whaling on each other.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [Fight Club] Firewing vs Gravitar

 

But 35 DEX can delay until 1 DEX Character decides to attack. At that point 35 DEX can make a DEX roll to attack first and if he wins (which is likely) 1 DEX cannot abort to a defensive action since his attack has already been declared. See page 360 5ER for details.

 

Very true. Or 1 DEX Man delays his action to see what 35 DEX Man will do. If he declares an attack, 1 DEX man moves to missile deflection.

 

Let me repeat the following two sets of actions.

 

Previous to 5th edition

 

I wait for the villain to come up the stairs, and then blast the stairs out from under him.

 

5th edition

 

I perform a cover maneuver on the stairs at -2. The trigger for my action is the villain coming into sight.

 

This penalizes low DEX characters enough, thank you.

 

It's already bad enough that this rule produces ridiculous amounts of mexican standoffs where everyone is covering everyone else at -2, but that penalty is enough to blow up your gameworld when that nuclear missile is about to launch.

 

I think the above - both characters waiting for the other to declare an action - also constitutes a Mexican standoff.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ponderance....

 

I wouldn't allow it.

 

An NND shouldn't be stopped by Missile Deflection unless the FX of the Missle Deflection fits into the general parameters of those things the NND doesn't effect. He paid +1 on that attack for a reason. Its not a normal ranged attack that would be affected by the "anything" level of Missile Deflection (anything really means it includes any mechanically normative attack and missile deflection counts a normal defense in my book). Searing Heat is an NND, which indicates its only stopped by a logical set of FXs.

 

I don't see it as any more, or less, "realistic" to be able to deflect searing heat than to be able to deflect a burst of flames (EB or KA). The +1 advantage for NND allows it to ignore normal defenses. It still needs to hit in order to do damage. Missile deflection doesn't provide a defense, it prevents the hit being successful.