Lord Liaden Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them Side question what Viper and Demon do you guys like 4th or 5th edition? For VIPER I prefer the Fourth Edition incarnation. I admire both, like all of Scott Bennie's writing, and I appreciate the history and legacy he added to the 5E version. Several elements, like the Draysha and Takara-Shinja, I enjoyed and adopted. However, I prefer the pragmatic franchise structure of the 4E VIPER over the current cultlike style. I favor more emphasis on supervillains and less on agents. And the secret of the 4E Supreme Serpent was just cooler IMHO. For DEMON there's no contest, I vastly prefer 5E. I would incorporate a few characters and elements from the 4E version, particularly the supervillains; but I always felt that the occult and technological elements in the earlier version coexisted uneasily. The new DEMON is more coherent, more focussed, provides a broader range of potential plots, and is a far greater and more frightening threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them Hmm...lets see. On the DC side of the house' date=' The Church of Blood would fit nice, especially now that they've made Trigon the demon that they worship. And how could any of you forget the Hellfire Club?[/quote'] See above re: The Church of Blood. Trigon, powerful as he is, just isn't in the same class as the Kings of Edom. The Hellfire Club? From Marvel? They weren't evil mystic, they were evil mutants. (Of course, it is entirely possible that Marvel has changed that since the last time the X-titles were worth a damn. Like, say, 25 years ago...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominique Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them The Hellfire Club? From Marvel? They weren't evil mystic' date=' they were evil [i']mutants[/i]. True, but he also asked for evil organizations that could sub for Viper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them True' date=' but he also asked for evil organizations that could sub for Viper.[/quote'] True. But the Hellfire Club didn't have the hordes of agents that characterizes VIPER and it's analogues, IIRC. The closest the CU has ever had to the Hellfire Club is the outfit from the 4e Mutant Files. Let me check my library... Hm. My copy of Mutant Files is packed away. Weren't they called IMAGE, or somesuch? Immanent Mutant Ascension and Global Evolution (if memory serves...)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them See above re: The Church of Blood. Trigon, powerful as he is, just isn't in the same class as the Kings of Edom. The Hellfire Club? From Marvel? They weren't evil mystic, they were evil mutants. (Of course, it is entirely possible that Marvel has changed that since the last time the X-titles were worth a damn. Like, say, 25 years ago...) The most recent version of them were flunkies for the demon Blackheart, as I recall. He was the Black King, Selene was the Black Queen and they'd somehow conned Sunspot into being the Black Bishop. That's all I know about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominique Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them True. But the Hellfire Club didn't have the hordes of agents that characterizes VIPER and it's analogues, IIRC. The closest the CU has ever had to the Hellfire Club is the outfit from the 4e Mutant Files. Let me check my library... I do remember them having a large security force, and many of their members owning and running large companies, and that's not counting them controlling the school the Hellions went to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them I don't mind Viper from 5th ed, but I kinda like the 4th ed one as well As for Demon, I can honestly say that 5th ed Demon is one of my least favorite books for 5th ed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them I don't mind Viper from 5th ed, but I kinda like the 4th ed one as well As for Demon, I can honestly say that 5th ed Demon is one of my least favorite books for 5th ed. Might I ask why? The general opinion on DEMON 5e is nigh-universal acclaim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them I do remember them having a large security force' date=' and many of their members owning and running large companies, and that's not counting them controlling the school the Hellions went to.[/quote'] Now that you mention it, that does sound familiar. Still it doesn't quite evoke VIPER as much as it does one of the conspiratorial groups from Pulp Hero. (Too lazy/tired to check references at current.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them Might I ask why? The general opinion on DEMON 5e is nigh-universal acclaim. Too Iron-Age for me ... I like my superheroes superheroic ... to me, Demon doesn't read like that. When I think Demon, I think of something akin to the Circle of Thorns from CoH. I don't mind a bit of dark, but in the 5th ed book, it just didn't feel like a Champions book. IMHO, it would've been great as a DC supplement, lending to the more dusky feel of that. YMMV of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them Too Iron-Age for me ... I like my superheroes superheroic ... to me' date=' Demon doesn't read like that. When I think Demon, I think of something akin to the Circle of Thorns from CoH. I don't mind a bit of dark, but in the 5th ed book, it just didn't feel like a Champions book. IMHO, it would've been great as a DC supplement, lending to the more dusky feel of that. YMMV of course.[/quote'] DEMON either dominates any campaign they are included in, or they get ignored; there's not much room in the middle. And yeah, they are definitely Iron Age. I'd suggest that, as written, they are too powerful for DC, however. You'd either have to run some seriously beefed-up DC characters (like DC supers), or do Iron Age Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them An interesting momentary analog for DEMON over in Marvel would be the Six-Fingered Hand, a united group of cults following six demons that united to unleash Hell on Earth for Satan (from the Defenders 90-100). Not a great match, but an interesting run of Seventies comics and fairly close. The Sons of Satannish also have a DEMON-like element to them, despite just worshiping Satannish. Anyone able to keep Doctor Strange busy definitely deserves a decent look-over. Oddly, one potential DEMON-like group from Marvel is the Hand from Miller's run of Daredevil. I know, I know, they're ninja, but look at it from this perspective: relentless and brutal cult-minded killers, with access to some decent mojo, and operating towards some unseen agenda (keep in mind that DD was never really clear what and why the Hand was doing any particular action, and they went out of their way to keep it that way, even to the point of utilizing some bizarre ability to disintegrate failed members to avoid capture and revelation). With a few modifications here and there, it's easy to see grafting them over a DEMON-like orientation, I'd think. As for not being sure if Trigon is in King of Edom class, I'm not so sure. I have no idea how badly he's been jobbed in recent years, but that first five part storyline in the Teen Titans' Baxter paper series unleashed a monstrous evil that turned Earth to stone (including the Tower) and effectively wiped out nearly all resistance on Earth...just by his being in our reality. That's pretty much what happens with the Kings, or any other Lovecraftian threat, really. Take care Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them True ... though I see the book geared more towards a DC feel rather than any supers I've read. In the long run, I've made my own group to fill the Demon of old's place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them As for not being sure if Trigon is in King of Edom class' date=' I'm not so sure. I have no idea how badly he's been jobbed in recent years, but that first five part storyline in the Teen Titans' Baxter paper series unleashed a monstrous evil that turned Earth to stone (including the Tower) and effectively wiped out nearly all resistance on Earth...just by his being in our reality. That's pretty much what happens with the Kings, or any other Lovecraftian threat, really.[/quote'] I would say that Trigon's on the level of threat as the King of Edom ... the Terror of Trigon storyline alone should be enough to prove that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them I would say that Trigon's on the level of threat as the King of Edom ... the Terror of Trigon storyline alone should be enough to prove that That would make Trigon "evil god" level, yes. I see the Kings of Edom as a bit beyond that. And I don't recall specifics (I need to reread those issues), but didn't the ritual that brought Trigon to Earth do a lot of the "world-changing" by tapping energies beyond Trigon's own to bring him here, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted June 1, 2007 Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 Re: Viper/Demon and organization in other fiction like them I would say the Kings of Edom are more along the lines of a Shuma-Gorath level threat, or perhaps the King of Tears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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