Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

[Hyper-Man]

Hi Herodom,

 

According to 5er pg 134

 

As an option for Aid, GMs can allow characters to buy a slightly different form of the Power known as Succor. Succor is a Constant Power with No Range; using it requires an Attack Action, as with regular Aid. Succor costs END to use.

...

To add more points, the character has to use an Attack Action, roll the dice again, and pay more END. As long as he keeps succeeding with his Attack Rolls, the character can keep adding effect this way without worrying about the maximum effect rules for regular Aid.

 

What if the Succor is Self Only though? The attack action defines the time it takes to activate but no attack roll exists. Can it be used to boost an ability multiple times (via Sweep?) in one phase as long as the extra END is paid on both the phase it's activated and the phase the boosted ability is used?

 

example from a multipower:

 

3u Succor STR 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points) (50 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) 5 END

 

Could the character with this ability spend 1 phase activating the Succor twice via sweep (DCV penalties are the only negative aspect of this) spending 10 END. On the character's next phase they must immediately spend 10 more END before doing anything with the extra 60 STR.

 

Am I missing something in the rules?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

14 looks and no opinions from the Peanut Gallerytm ?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I wouldn't let you Sweep that particular power.

 

It breaks the spirit of the maneuver, if not the Rules.

 

In fact, I probably would not let you Sweep a Self Only Power at all.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

Succor Self Only is pretty weaselly. I've probably used it in a power write up or on a character somewhere, but even then it would have been with a clothespin on my nose.

 

I think I would prefer it to be taken as base effect w/ Costs END.

[Nevenall]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I've used Succor and Self-Only, but with the Once Only limitation. Meaning that only one instance of the power can be in effect upon the character at a time.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I agree that it is a bit of a strange build but I wanted to try an alternative to GM permission characteristics or Density Increase in a multipower (and both alternatives could provide +50 STR on the same active points).

 

The only difference between this and Aid is that Aid is 0 END by default and has half the standard effect (15) for the same points.

 

Would you allow a Self Only Aid to be Sweeped considering the 1/2 DCV penalty? Both variations seem to offer some new flavors to the classic "Powering-Up" concept.

 

Also, would you allow a non-limited Aid or Succor to be sweeped vs. multiple targets?

 

Just to be clear, I am not hooked on the idea but I can't seem to find a rule that disallows the combination.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

My belief is that Sweep is intended to be used on multiple targets, or in the case of UMAs suggestion of Sweeping a Grab on one target.

 

Sweeping anything that's Self Only seems to break the spirit and intent of the maneuver, as well as smack of Munchkinness.

 

While there's no ruling against it, I would certainly dissallow it out of hand. Part of the Sweep Maneuver is the increasing difficulty of hitting successive targets - which you don't have against yourself. Which removes the trade-off of the maneuver completely.

 

If you want more of a Power Up in a single Phase buy more dice.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I'm also not sure about the Sweep but I have seen a few 0 END + Continuous Succors. It's a little slower but at least is automatic.

[Markdoc]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I don't have a problem with either succour or aid self-only, as it's the cleanest build for some concepts.

 

Sweep, however allows you to attack multiple targets (obviously can't be done with a self only power) or (as a suggested, optional, non-core rule) to use multiple attacks on one target, where that would be feasible (for example, the afore-mentioned UMA multiple limb lockup thing. Not all attacks can be swept and a power like this one, which isn't an attack anyway, should never be allowed to be swept.

 

For me, it'd be an easy call as a GM: even as a player I wouldn't try this. If you want a similar concept (Character can power up some and with luck can power up more) then buy extra dice with an activation or skill roll.

 

cheers, Mark

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I have to agree with the other posters, sweep is not made for this. If you really want to do it that way why not use Autofire?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

Succor Self Only is pretty weaselly. I've probably used it in a power write up or on a character somewhere, but even then it would have been with a clothespin on my nose.

 

I think I would prefer it to be taken as base effect w/ Costs END.

 

As well as Costs end, a limitation for activation time could be taken (perhaps Full Phase to Activate, as there is no "Attack Action" extra time limitation).

 

A perfect duplicate of Succor would cost END to have the ability available, plus END for its use if the ability already costs END.

 

Avoiding these and Figured char's to the extent possible. +20 PRE, Costs END (-1/2), Full Phase to Activate (-1/4) would cost 11 points.

 

6d6 averages +21, so let's use 6d6 Succor, Self Only to emulate the ability. That costs 20 points, almost twice as much. That seems to be in the game, given it adds the ability to stack enhancements.

 

A further comparative: that same 20 points could have bought +20 PRE flat out, so shouldn't it be able to do something that +20 PRE can't, especially given it takes time and END to use? Sure, in NCM, the cost goes up, but all you need is a limitation to make the bonus PRE a power instead of a characteristic and that little conundrum is avoided. [Plus, NCM causes issues in any Aid or Succor construct.]

[OddHat]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

Succor Self Only with Sweep is one of those ideas that would get a "Yes, very nice, next character" from me. There's no cap on Succor. Add 0 end, and it becomes very difficult to meaningfully balance.

[OddHat]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

As well as Costs end, a limitation for activation time could be taken (perhaps Full Phase to Activate, as there is no "Attack Action" extra time limitation).

 

A perfect duplicate of Succor would cost END to have the ability available, plus END for its use if the ability already costs END.

 

Avoiding these and Figured char's to the extent possible. +20 PRE, Costs END (-1/2), Full Phase to Activate (-1/4) would cost 11 points.

 

6d6 averages +21, so let's use 6d6 Succor, Self Only to emulate the ability. That costs 20 points, almost twice as much. That seems to be in the game, given it adds the ability to stack enhancements.

 

A further comparative: that same 20 points could have bought +20 PRE flat out, so shouldn't it be able to do something that +20 PRE can't, especially given it takes time and END to use? Sure, in NCM, the cost goes up, but all you need is a limitation to make the bonus PRE a power instead of a characteristic and that little conundrum is avoided. [Plus, NCM causes issues in any Aid or Succor construct.]

 

There is no cap on points added from Succor, as confirmed by Steve Long.

 

That 6d6 Succor to PRE can keep on adding 6d6 every single attack action, the only limits being how much END and time the character has to keep building. Allow a self only Sweep, and if you have the END for it you can boost your PRE by 12d6, 18d6, or however much the GM allows per phase.

 

The potential for balance problems is considerable.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

There is no cap on points added from Succor, as confirmed by Steve Long.

 

That 6d6 Succor to PRE can keep on adding 6d6 every single attack action, the only limits being how much END and time the character has to keep building. Allow a self only Sweep, and if you have the END for it you can boost your PRE by 12d6, 18d6, or however much the GM allows per phase.

 

The potential for balance problems is considerable.

 

Very True. Though we allow Succor in our campaigns, it doesn't exempt the character from our 60 AP max rule (i.e. a stat can't be Succored above 60 APs). The same goes for large VPPs.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I've used Self Only Succor to allow characters to "charge up" their attacks, but I would never allow someone to Sweep it. The idea is that it take extra time and effort (Extra Phases from using the Succor + the increasing END cost) to build up to the characters maximum power level.

 

This works pretty well for doing Nova Blast type effects, IMO.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I agree that Succor can become unbalanced with any form of Reduced END. But in the case of a Self Only increase to a single stat like STR it appears to be underpowered compared to the other available options.

 

example assuming a 50 point Multipower reserve:

 

3u 1) Mega Strength: Succor STR 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points) (50 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) [Notes: Requires Attack Action to activate.] - END=5

 

3u 2) Mega Strength Variant 1: Aid 5d6 (standard effect: 15 points) (50 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) [Notes: Requires Attack Action to activate. Maximum increase = 30 STR.] - END=0

 

4u 3) Mega Strength Variant 2: Density Increase (25,500 kg mass, +40 STR, +8 PD/ED, -8" KB), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (50 Active Points) [Notes: Requires 0 Phase to activate. Effect better than maximum Aid or 1 level of Succor. Also provides 8" KB resistance at the expense of a defacto side effect on ground.] - END=4

 

3u 4) Mega Strength Variant 3: +50 STR (50 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) [Notes: Cheapest and easiest to use option of all.] - END=5 [Notes: Costs 0 END to activate as a default]

 

The Succor and Aid versions really suck when compared to the Density and Straight bonus STR versions. Allowing a double use of the Succor (+60 STR) at the expense of x2 END the phase activated PLUS the phase the STR is actually used (total x4 END!) with a 1/2 DCV Penalty doesn't appear to imbalanced vs. the alternatives. Aid is a little different since there is no default END, only the 1/2 DCV penalty but even doubled to +30 STR it is still the weakest of the alternatives.

[OddHat]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I agree that Succor can become unbalanced with any form of Reduced END. But in the case of a Self Only increase to a single stat like STR it appears to be underpowered compared to the other available options.

 

example assuming a 50 point Multipower reserve:

 

3u 1) Mega Strength: Succor STR 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points) (50 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) [Notes: Requires Attack Action to activate.] - END=5

 

3u 2) Mega Strength Variant 1: Aid 5d6 (standard effect: 15 points) (50 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) [Notes: Requires Attack Action to activate. Maximum increase = 30 STR.] - END=0

 

4u 3) Mega Strength Variant 2: Density Increase (25,500 kg mass, +40 STR, +8 PD/ED, -8" KB), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (50 Active Points) [Notes: Requires 0 Phase to activate. Effect better than maximum Aid or 1 level of Succor. Also provides 8" KB resistance at the expense of a defacto side effect on ground.] - END=4

 

3u 4) Mega Strength Variant 3: +50 STR (50 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) [Notes: Cheapest and easiest to use option of all.] - END=5

 

Even without 0 END, it's effectively a Super Push without limit, especially Self Only.

 

Sweep a 10d6 Self Only Succor for four shots in a single phase, no attack roll and as far as I can see perfectly legal. You end up with on average +140 STR for 20 END. Next phase you throw a 30d6 punch for 20+15=35 END.

 

OK, you've burned 55 END total, but for a paltry 50 active / 30 real points and 50 END you've just pulled off a 30d6 Attack. That's some good tank smashing.

 

Sure, the GM can nerf it, and most GMs would, but personally I can't see calling the ability underpowered for the price at all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I agree that Succor can become unbalanced with any form of Reduced END. But in the case of a Self Only increase to a single stat like STR it appears to be underpowered compared to the other available options.

 

example assuming a 50 point Multipower reserve:

 

From where I stand - the Sweep Self Only Succor (0END or otherwise) isn't an issue of "How does it compare to other Active Point equivelant builds" but simply a breakage of the intent and spirit of the Sweep Maneuver.

 

which is far more damaging in my book that simple point expenditures.

 

While I like a clever use of a rule, a blatant misuse will cause more damage to the game than benefit.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

Even without 0 END, it's effectively a Super Push without limit, especially Self Only.

 

Sweep a 10d6 Self Only Succor for four shots in a single phase, no attack roll and as far as I can see perfectly legal. You end up with on average +140 STR for 20 END. Next phase you throw a 30d6 punch for 20+15=35 END.

 

OK, you've burned 55 END total, but for a paltry 50 active / 30 real points and 50 END you've just pulled off a 30d6 Attack. That's some good tank smashing.

 

Sure, the GM can nerf it, and most GMs would, but personally I can't see calling the ability underpowered for the price at all.

 

What about the idea of limiting the increase 'personal sweep' (or whatever you want to call it) to a single use (suggested earlier by someone) which limits the Succor variant to a maximum +60 STR with essentially x4 END and extra phase to use. That's what I'm really looking at when comparing to the other options. It doesn't seem to be overpowered to the Density Increase variant (which is completely book legal) at all to me.

 

The character I am creating the examples from has a base 45 STR so in your example it would actually be a 37d6 attack which has no guarantee of hitting. The character would be done END wise regardless.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

END cost MIGHT restrain the player unless they buy an END reserve, which is a cheap way to get END. A 200 point reserve with a 10 REC is only 30 points. Sure it recovers slowly but the character could pump up the power so high he only needs it for a short while.

[OddHat]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

What about the idea of limiting the increase 'personal sweep' (or whatever you want to call it) to a single use (suggested earlier by someone) which limits the Succor variant to a maximum +60 STR with essentially x4 END and extra phase to use. That's what I'm really looking at when comparing to the other options. It doesn't seem to be overpowered to the Density Increase variant (which is completely book legal) at all to me.

 

The character I am creating the examples from has a base 45 STR so in your example it would actually be a 37d6 attack which has no guarantee of hitting. The character would be done END wise regardless.

 

Every GM is going to make his own call, which is fine and groovy.

 

By the book, there is no cap on the number of times an attack can be swept in a phase, save what the GM imposes; by the book, there's no cap on how many points may be added by Succor. Even if the GM only allows a two "attack" sweep, the PC can add, assuming 10d6 of succor, an average of 70 STR per phase as long as he can keep paying the end and doesn't have to actually attack. If the player and the GM work out a deal where this still falls within what are considered reasonable limits for the game, probably including a gentleman's agreement not to buy plenty of extra REC and END, then for that campaign maybe it would work.

 

Personally, in my own campaigns, I'd require the character to buy the extra STR with Increased END cost and extra time; The utility would be closer to the actual price, and I wouldn't have to rely on a gentleman's agreement to avoid the cap issue.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

Every GM is going to make his own call, which is fine and groovy.

 

By the book, there is no cap on the number of times an attack can be swept in a phase, save what the GM imposes; by the book, there's no cap on how many points may be added by Succor. Even if the GM only allows a two "attack" sweep, the PC can add, assuming 10d6 of succor, an average of 70 STR per phase as long as he can keep paying the end and doesn't have to actually attack. If the player and the GM work out a deal where this still falls within what are considered reasonable limits for the game, probably including a gentleman's agreement not to buy plenty of extra REC and END, then for that campaign maybe it would work.

 

Personally, in my own campaigns, I'd require the character to buy the extra STR with Increased END cost and extra time; The utility would be closer to the actual price, and I wouldn't have to rely on a gentleman's agreement to avoid the cap issue.

 

Yeah,

 

I agree that it's safe use would require a lot of GM-Player ground rules.

 

Just one of my crazy thought experiments.

 

Here's what I think I'll end up using for the character instead:

 

*Assumes a base 45 STR

 

48 Mega Powers: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots Limited Power All slots affected by adjustment powers as if in an Elemental Control framework (-1/4) [Notes: The last 4 (m) slots are "Multi" which allows use of "Variable" active points. Meaning any combination of Bonus STR, Flight and Force Field using 60 active points [up to +30 STR with up to 20" Flight and up to 20pd/20ed Force Field (+20, 10" + 10/10), (30, 15"), etc..)].] - END=

1u 1) Mega Costume Change: Cosmetic Transform 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points) (Mega costume into normal clothes and back) (10 Active Points) - END=1

1u 2) Mega Quickness: Area Of Effect Accurate (up to One Hex; +1/2) for up to 60 Active Points of STR (30 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1) [Notes: Can be used as a form of super-speed punch or grab. ] - END=9

3m 3) Mega Strength: +30 STR (30 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) [Notes: Can increase up to a 75 STR for 15d6 punch.] - END=3

6m 4) Mega Defenses: Force Field (20 PD/20 ED) (40 Active Points) - END=4

6m 5) Mega Movement: Flight 20" (40 Active Points) [Notes: Allows for up to 10" Half Move and "Partial Damage" Mega Punch (13d6 with 65 total STR).] - END=4

7m 6) Mega Eye-Blast: Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) - END=12

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

From where I stand - the Sweep Self Only Succor (0END or otherwise) isn't an issue of "How does it compare to other Active Point equivelant builds" but simply a breakage of the intent and spirit of the Sweep Maneuver.

 

I'm inclined to agree with this. I'm also inclined to rule that, since there is no attack roll, there is no Sweep.

 

On the other hand, the Sweep still takes up an attack action, and since Succor costs END, it's visible. "Hey, he's charging up - better take him out before he can use that boost". Oh, and that Sweep left you at half DCV, didn't it? On this basis, is it really that powerful?

 

I might be inclined to allow the Sweep with the ruling that you declare how many uses in advance, you use your OCV vs DCV 3, and you must either maintain the full Succor from that attack (the successful and any unsuccessful Sweep attacks) or drop the entire amount and start again.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I'm inclined to agree with this. I'm also inclined to rule that, since there is no attack roll, there is no Sweep.

 

On the other hand, the Sweep still takes up an attack action, and since Succor costs END, it's visible. "Hey, he's charging up - better take him out before he can use that boost". Oh, and that Sweep left you at half DCV, didn't it? On this basis, is it really that powerful?

 

I might be inclined to allow the Sweep with the ruling that you declare how many uses in advance, you use your OCV vs DCV 3, and you must either maintain the full Succor from that attack (the successful and any unsuccessful Sweep attacks) or drop the entire amount and start again.

 

Sounds like you're waffling like I did at first.

 

Your description on the use of Sweep is per the existing rules; a normal use of sweep requires the total # of attacks to be declared beforehand.

[Wanderer]

Re: Seeking opinion on Succor, Self Only

 

I can understand the game-balance concerns from repeated or Sweeped applications of Succor, Self Only, but with the right Limitations, I've found this power the most sensible, elegant implementation of the "Berserk Strength" or "I summon inner reserves of power" power concepts: more simple (and less burdensome on char sheet) than several Power Characteristics with Costs End, more reliable and simple to track than Aid.

 

I generally use it with "Cannot Be Pushed Or Applied Multiple Times" Limitation, Standard Effect, and one or more of Charges, Extra Time, Concentration, RSR, or Side Effects (Enraged, Drain Stun, and the like).

 

E.g. A power construct I use in a character, to simulate Thor's "warrior madness":

 

Battle Fury: Succor STR, DEX, CON, SPD 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), four characteristics simultaneously (+1) (112 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (character becomes Enraged In Combat, always occurs, recovery 8-; -1), Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), Self Only (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Power Cannot Be Pushed Or Applied Multiple Times (-1/2), Requires An INT Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll; -1/4)