Hero system complexity

[Guest steamteck]

Lots is made of the HERO systems complexity to the point its supposedly very hard to learn I

The first kind of boggles me so the 2nd seems more likely but maybe its a mindset thing.It doesn't seem any more complex than say GURPs and downright simple compared to Palladium stuff to me.

If you like it or not is certainly personal preference and there's no right or wrong. I just have trouble wrapping my mind around can't figure it out.:confused:

[Edsel]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I find the current d20 system and its variations more complex than Hero System. I have always thought that the people that lament the complexity of Hero System are the sorts who can't calculate your change at McDonald's without the aid of their cash register.

 

Mitigating factors to my argument are:

1. I have been playing Hero System since the 1st Edition of Champions so it is almost second nature to me.
   
2. I work as a civil engineer so Hero math is trivial compared to what I have to tackle daily in my job.
   

[SableWyvern]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I'd suggest you're going to get ever so slightly biased results, given where you're posting...

 

Having said that, I would say that the HERO front-end, taken in it's entirety, can be quite complex if you want to get the most out of it.

 

Taking the rules and just building powers is very easy. However, going in the other direction -- taking a concept and using the rules to simulate it -- sometimes takes a much deeper understanding of the rules, and a lot of research.

 

While I could well be wrong, I doubt very much that your 10 year old is going to be using HERO to anywhere near it's maximum utility.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I'd suggest you're going to get ever so slightly biased results, given where you're posting...

 

Having said that, I would say that the HERO front-end, taken in it's entirety, can be quite complex if you want to get the most out of it.

 

Taking the rules and just building powers is very easy. However, going in the other direction -- taking a concept and using the rules to simulate it -- sometimes takes a much deeper understanding of the rules, and a lot of research.

 

While I could well be wrong, I doubt very much that your 10 year old is going to be using HERO to anywhere near it's maximum utility.

 

 

Maybe not but he is using it to make playable characters of his preference. Iron Man, Superman, Captain America clones come to mind and a VPP based wizard with "spells" worked out before hand. He even included "gestures and Incantations" for his wizard. you're right I'm getting a biased sampling but the discussion on the "change of Heart" thread in general roleplaying tweaked my curiosity. I just can't comprehend intelligent adults being unable ( not unwilling BIG difference ) to understand it and wanted to know if I was on planet 10 myself with this.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

HERO System is neither particularly complex nor simple. I'd say it falls right about the middle of complexity for a role-playing game. Yes, it might seem overly complex to people who can't handle basic 3rd-grade arithmetic (apparently like many current high-school students), but it involves no real math that can't be handled with a 4-function calculator. Every system has its own strengths and weaknesses. There's a lot to absorb, but that's true of pretty much any RPG. I remember how complex the original D&D/AD&D seemed after years of "simple" wargame rules. I got over it; and this September will be my 30th anniversary for roleplaying games.

 

I do find it amusing to listen to complaints about complexity from D&Ders using a system with 6 different types of dice, hundreds of unique spells, and a score of character classes.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I just can't comprehend intelligent adults being unable ( not unwilling BIG difference ) to understand it and wanted to know if I was on planet 10 myself with this.

Yes, you're on Planet 10 but that has absolutely nothing to do with roleplaying.

 

Mentor's kids both started playing Champions at around your son's age and their concepts were quite solid and neither were clones of any popular characters. Their dad helped them with the game mechanics, but they still had very solid ideas of what their characters could and could not do.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Conceptually Hero isn't very hard, and if you have a good memory the costs and options will come by rote. I still make characters without a book (or program). On the other hand, I don't feel a lot of the granularity and hard-coded guidelines that emerged in 5th edition added a commensurate amount of value, but did add a level of apparent complexity and lengthened notation for simple things that intimidates potential new-comers and makes some of us old timers feel as though its more than we want or need. That's not universal, of course. Some people like it all (and some of it is good), but its not where I wanted to see the system go, and while I still have an overall positive feeling for it, I'm not hot on it like I used to be.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Yes, you're on Planet 10 but that has absolutely nothing to do with roleplaying.

 

 

Repped for Truth!! Darn can't rep you again yet!!

[SableWyvern]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I just can't comprehend intelligent adults being unable ( not unwilling BIG difference ) to understand it and wanted to know if I was on planet 10 myself with this.

 

I dare say that a lot of people complaining about HERO's complexity do fall into the unwilling, rather than unable category. The character generation rules in 5ER take up the first 341 pages. Plenty of RPG manuals aren't that long in total.

 

Searching through 340 pages of rules trying to work out "what's the best way to model XXX", constantly flipping back and forth between powers, limitations, advantages, framework rules and other miscellania is simply more work than many people want to be stuck with. Thus, it is too hard/complex, inasmuch as the amount of work exceeds the level of reward.

 

Edit: and that's not factoring in rules outside the strictly character generation parts of the book that also need to be referenced and understood for some powers and abilities.

[Scott Baker]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I do find it amusing to listen to complaints about complexity from D&Ders using a system with 6 different types of dice' date=' hundreds of unique spells, and a score of character classes. [/quote']

 

It's worse than that. I lost the thread reference here on the boards, but now there's hundreds of classes, hundreds more prestige classes, and thousands of feats. Those aren't all in the core 3 rulebooks of course, but still.

 

Scott Baker

[SableWyvern]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Personally, I found D&D 3E much easier to pick up when I started, than I have HERO. Admitedly, I did have some familiarity with earlier additions of D&D, but 95% of my prior RPing experience had been with Rolemaster.

 

OTOH, if I was planning to run a more limited Heroic HERO game, with an already developed magic system, I'm guessing that I'd place tham about on par.

[Checkmate]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Here's the thing. If I had never heard of HERO before, and I decided I wanted to play a Space Game, that isn't Star Wars. I look on the shelves and see Star HERO, so I buy that. Whoops that doesn't help me at all. I figure out that I need 5th edition HERO System rules. Okay, so now Star HERO makes a little more sense, but I'm still not there yet. Now I have to figure out that Terran Empire is the campaign setting, but I'm still forced to figure out how to make weapons armor and ships.

 

Then you're only looking at one small part of a game system Character Creation. Essentially what you're doing is saying "Look I can tie my shoes, that must mean running the Boston Marathon is easy"

 

Ask your 10 year old what the average resistant defenses should be in a Heroic game that uses Bleeding, and Disabling rules. Ask him if the average resistant Defenses are 6, average body is 10, what DC attacks should I be using? Should I use the same DC for killing attacks? What if the average REC is 20, does that change things; if so how? If the average BODY is 8 what impact will that have on the Disabling rules?

 

With D20 you know if the players are 1st level you should throw a couple of 1st level monsters at them, and things should be pretty balanced. The hard parts already been done for you by the game makers. It's simple logic really, you have a simple system: Level Based, and a complex system: Point Based, you tell me which you think is easier to learn the simple or the complex system

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

First let me have my harsh moment and say I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't bother to look on the cover and see you need 5th edition. GURPS is the same way

 

My 10 year old doesn't need to know What the average of all the little details are. I've got in in my campaign guidelines. which he can follow just fine he can also follow levels like d20. He just prefers a designer system and HERO combat. I know its more complex but he's doing everything my adults players are doing except for the maturity and complexity of character design. My observation was I don't understand how a supposedly intelligent adult could be UNABLE to understand the system. as opposed to unwilling. Frankly Palladium seems much more complex and GURPs equally so. I guess they just have more world books

I know its a complex toolkit for settings I also know lots of complication is optional. I really have no idea about the disabling rules because I don't use them myself but if I decided to use them I know I could use them. I won't be mind boggled

 

I understand that its easier to run established settings than make your own but I've always in 30 years made my own so I guess that aspect is irrelevant to me.

I beginning to think all some of the answers to this question are just going to make me more of a gaming snob:nonp:

[gojira]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Here's the thing. If I had never heard of HERO before' date=' and I decided I wanted to play a Space Game, that isn't Star Wars. I look on the shelves and see Star HERO, so I buy that. Whoops that doesn't help me at all. I figure out that I need 5th edition HERO System rules. Okay, so now Star HERO makes a little more sense, but I'm still not there yet. Now I have to figure out that Terran Empire is the campaign setting, but I'm still forced to figure out how to make weapons armor and ships.[/quote']

 

Right, I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The HERO System is inverted in many respects. The basic books are all about how to set up your own worlds. These are things many GMs and players do after they've been playing for a while. In HERO, they are presented right up front and have to be dealt with immediately by the GM. Most players and GMs with a new system typically don't start with world building, they start with a pre-built campaign and eventually grow out of it.

 

I think some "all-in-one" books would help. Specific setting with basic rules (Sidekick) and notes on how that setting works, all in one spot. Encourage folks to pick up the all-in-one books first, then expand to the full rules and genre books when they feel ready.

 

 

...what the average resistant defenses should be in a Heroic game that uses Bleeding, and Disabling rules. ... if the average resistant Defenses are 6, average body is 10, what DC attacks should I be using? Should I use the same DC for killing attacks? What if the average REC is 20, does that change things; if so how? If the average BODY is 8 what impact will that have on the Disabling rules?

 

Leaving anybody's progeny out of it, these are all questions that would have to be answered by any new GM and his players before starting on a HERO campaign. It's a lot of work up front. And it's good to point it out. Many here can do this easily, but many newbies can't. That's the rub.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I don't think it's as big an issue as it's being made out to be, though. How many people pick up a game they've never seen before and decide to GM it? Damn few, no matter WHAT it is, unless they are a veteran RPG player with more than one or two systems under their belt. More typically, we learn the basics of a system by playing in a game that someone else is running in that system. Once someone has got a basic feel for how the flow of the game works... THEN that person might consider running it and figuring out those little questions about play balance and power level and so forth. And by that point, they'll have at least one example of how it was done before, and probably someone they can talk to about it and bounce ideas off of. So it's not really all that terribly complex, even looking at it from a GM perspective.

[Checkmate]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Right' date=' I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The HERO System is inverted in many respects. The basic books are all about how to set up your own worlds. These are things many GMs and players do after they've been playing for a while. In HERO, they are presented right up front and have to be dealt with immediately by the GM. Most players and GMs with a new system typically don't start with world building, they start with a pre-built campaign and eventually grow out of it.[/quote']

I've been thinking about this for awhile, this is exactly it. HERO System needs some all-in-ones with D20 like pre-made races, a generic pre-made setting complete with some villians, weapons/gadgets and an introductory adventure. They need to throw in some quality color art and put it on glossy paper. Get people excited about the product, pull in some new blood. Right now they're just living on those of us that have always been fans. They're not going to pull in more people with their current set up, unless the current fans pull them in. That's a very limited approach.

 

When you're walking down the isle of the FLGS and you're looking for a Superhero game, what in the world would ever attract you to Champions? The cover is drab (don't get me wrong I like the art, but it shouldn't be on the cover of a Superhero game, it's just bad marketing). You open it up, and the interior art runs from pretty good, to awful, but it's all black and white and very uninspiring. Then you go down a couple of racks and you see the flashy cover screaming at you, with heroes battling villains, you open it up, and it has glossy pages, full color art making you want to play that game, which game do you think they're going to buy? Especially when you consider that on the cover of Champions, it says you also need Hero System rules (another $50) and then even if by some miracle, you actually took the time to read these books, you 'd realize there is is no setting, and very few sample characters, so you still have a world to create. OR you could have spent less money gotten the other supers book and had a lot of the work done for you so you could concentrate on learning the system.

 

Well sorry for the rant, but like I said I've been thinking about that for awhile now, quickly back to the thread topic:

 

steamteck,

I would seriously consider re-writing your question. IMO it's a bit inflammatory. You're saying that there are adults out there that have said they can't learn HERO and you've taught your 10 year old son. I don't know what you're hoping to accomplish with that type of remark, and I don't really believe anyone has ever said they can't learn it (everyone I've seen has said it's too complicated, and a lot of the complication comes from the points I've made that you agreed your son couldn't do), however if there is someone who feels they can't learn it, all your remark is going to do is offend.

[Checkmate]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I don't think it's as big an issue as it's being made out to be' date=' though. How many people pick up a game they've never seen before and decide to GM it? Damn few, no matter WHAT it is, unless they are a veteran RPG player with more than one or two systems under their belt. More typically, we learn the basics of a system by playing in a game that someone else is running in that system. Once someone has got a basic feel for how the flow of the game works... THEN that person might consider running it and figuring out those little questions about play balance and power level and so forth. And by that point, they'll have at least one example of how it was done before, and probably someone they can talk to about it and bounce ideas off of. So it's not really all that terribly complex, even looking at it from a GM perspective.[/quote']

I disagree. From my own personal experience, the RPG's I've bought, and ran before anyone else had the game:

Champions

Marvel Superheroes

DC Heroes

Villains and Vigilantes

Traveler 2000

MechWarrior

Shadowrun

I think the reason you don't see that with Hero System now, is that it's near impossible.

[Ferret]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I bought the first edition Champions rules and it was hard for me to build my first character. As I had never experianced a point based system before. Eventually I played the game learned the rules and ran my own games. Many systems at least seem easier for players to learn then the hero system. I have run both Gurps and th hero system and gurps is just has more laid out for you so it is easier. Ie instead of having to create a disadvantage in gurps you just pick one. I agree with some of the others. What Hero needs is a cool setting where all your basic facts are worked out by DOJ. Including tons of powers advantages and disads so you can simply pick and choose. From a big list of standard stuff. They did this a little in Fantasy Hero but not enough. They should really do some cool adventures that are chock full of template style npc's, monsters and treasures. To give game masters an idea on what to include in a senerio. Anyway that is my 2 cents Ferret.....

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

steamteck,

I would seriously consider re-writing your question. IMO it's a bit inflammatory. You're saying that there are adults out there that have said they can't learn HERO and you've taught your 10 year old son. I don't know what you're hoping to accomplish with that type of remark, and I don't really believe anyone has ever said they can't learn it (everyone I've seen has said it's too complicated, and a lot of the complication comes from the points I've made that you agreed your son couldn't do), however if there is someone who feels they can't learn it, all your remark is going to do is offend.

 

 

You're probably right its a little harsh but it was started by an adult stating they couldn't learn HERO because it was too complex.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

You're probably right its a little harsh but it was started by an adult stating they couldn't learn HERO because it was too complex.

While I don't know the original context of that specific conversation, I still stand by my assertion that such a comment most commonly means, "I could learn how to play HERO, but it's too much effort and thus not worth it - it's just too complicated."

[Lucius]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

While I think the usual problem is not that people CAN'T learn Hero but that (rightly or wrongly) they percieve it as more trouble than it's worth -

 

I will say that I, for one, don't understand the damage stacking rules.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Building a character is so simple a palindromedary could do it with one head tied behind its...er...front. Or in front of its front. Or something.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

The complexity of Hero isn't in the math. And a lot of the issue isn't in setting up your own world - after all every single person I know who GMs D&D either sets up their own world or tweaks another to the point it's basically new. They tweak character classes, alter magic, shift spells around - all kinds of crazy stuff.

 

No - the complexity of Hero comes from it's core tenant: Reason From Effect.

 

Either you grok it, or you don't.

 

You want to do something, you kind of know what you want but you look at that massive array of Powers, Skills, Advantages and Limitations and suddenly none of it makes any sense at all.

 

It's not figuring out the math, it's figuring out what the heck you need to do to make what you want.

 

I've seen people go years and their basic thought it "wait, what?" and I've seen people pick up the book for the first time and go "Aw yeah, gimme an hour I'll be back with a character."

[jtelson]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Congrats on having a ten year old that could be taught the Hero System. That being said - it's easier to teach a ten year old something than a twenty-five year old, also just because your ten year old could learn it doesn't mean all ten year olds can. It's also easier to learn something when you are being taught by a patient and loving parent than by some guy in your average gaming group who you see once or twice a week.

My wife, who can run an office like a swiss watch, sight read music, do our taxes without software, track every birthday and aniversary for all of our friends and family, and memorize entire operas in foreign languages she doesn't speak, can not learn the system because it's too complicated. It's not that she hasn't tried or that she's bad at math.

I think Ghost-Angel has it right - The first time I played Champions (1985ish), I thought it was the most idiotic game I'd seen. We were using the pre-fab characters and I had Crusader. I couldn't hurt the guy we were fighting so I scanned down through the character sheet and saw that I had Acrobatics and Boot Jets. Perfect - I run up to the villian, do a half flip so my feet were near his face, and fire off the jets. Everyone should know what happened next. It wasn't that it didn't work that bugged me during that first session, it was that it could never work - I understood the system instantly but it still seemed stupid that the bulk of your cleverness needs to be front loaded.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

The first time I played Champions (1985ish)' date=' I thought it was the most idiotic game I'd seen. We were using the pre-fab characters and I had Crusader. I couldn't hurt the guy we were fighting so I scanned down through the character sheet and saw that I had Acrobatics and Boot Jets. Perfect - I run up to the villian, do a half flip so my feet were near his face, and fire off the jets. Everyone should know what happened next. It wasn't that it didn't work that bugged me during that first session, it was that it could never work - I understood the system instantly but it still seemed stupid that the bulk of your cleverness needs to be front loaded.[/quote']That it didn't work to some degree was IMO poor gamemastering, not a flaw in the system. It might not have hurt him, but unless the villain in question possessed some sort of face protection or force field having him be temporarily blinded for a Phase or at least flinch away from flames in his face would be entirely reasonable. That's simply reasoning from effect or based on the sfx.

 

Had someone tried a similar thing in our campaign, I think all or most of our five GMs would have let it work to some extent. I'm never going to penalize a player when he tries something clever. It may not work as well as he'd hoped, but it would accomplish something. It wouldn't be any different than letting a character throw paint into the villain's face to blind him. Am I going to prohibit that because paint isn't bought as a Flash attack?

[GAZZA]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

With the sole exception of Black Book Traveller, every game I've ever played I ran before playing (and I have run games of many systems that I have never played). I'm bright, but I'm not a genius - I doubt very much I'm the only one that's the "early adopter of RPGs" here.

 

d20 vs Hero: I think there's a difference between actual complexity and perceived complexity here. Look at a character sheet for either, and you'll see mostly numbers, so it can't be the use of base 10 that upsets anyone. (In any case, that would bar you from a large number of systems - FUDGE would be the only semi-mainstream game that is defined without numbers, if I'm not mistaken).

 

However, while Hero requires no arithmetic more complex than division, that's a step more than d20 does. The only arithmetic required for d20 character creation (which is where most people get scared in Hero) is addition, and that's only for assigning your ability scores (assuming you use point buy - which, come to think of it, many math-shy gamers probably don't) and buying equipment. And it should be noted that both of these steps are the ones that consume the most time in d20 character creation - especially if you're generating a high level character.

 

Now, one can certainly rail against the requirement of 6 different types of dice and the whole "this is how you read a d100" stuff, but these are not difficult skills to acquire. In combat, you're usually rolling-and-comparing (no arithmetic required), rolling damage (often no arithmetic required - just reading off a single die - except for magic users, who have the reputation of being the more complex characters to play, though to be fair that has little to do with arithmetic requirements), or subtracting damage (some arithmetic required). Hero, on the other hand, has a "figure out what you need to hit" step, instantly giving "the big reveal" of the target's DCV (d20's roll and compare method means that the GM need not reveal the AC of the target), and after a hit you're adding up multiple dice to determine damage in two different ways (BODY and STUN). You have three "consumable resources" to track in combat (END, STUN, and BODY) compared to the single resource in d20 (hit points - at most, you could say that you have to track nonlethal damage as well, but that's really just a variant of the same thing). When you take damage, you have to perform two lots of arithmetic compared to one in d20 (first figure out how much damage you take by subtracting your defences, then subtract that result from your STUN and BODY).

 

(Incidentally: I have a suspicion someone is reading that and thinking, "GAZZA's an idiot: here's how you do the attack rolls without revealing the DCV, and we never bother with END in our FH game, ..." - I'm not unaware of house rules to this effect, and use a fairly involved version of the former myself, but that's not the RAW that a prospective newcomer to Hero would see).

 

I think it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that for many types of characters Hero is more complex than d20.

 

 

The problem is when you proceed from that point to conclude that because Hero is more complex that it is therefore worse - even for newbies. That's where I'd take exception. The added complexity of Hero is relatively minor and largely "front loaded" (at character generation, to be precise). The reward you get for this is added options and increased consistency in the simulation. A lot of d20 combat comes down to "I miss, I hit for 4 damage, I miss, I miss, I get a critical for 8 damage, I miss..." Few Hero combats go that way. Champions tend to have lots more attack options and tend to use them; Fantasy Heroes have hit locations that make every hit unique.

 

Granted you'll see a lot more of the difference here in combat than in social settings, but that's not really caricaturing either system; if you want a game that puts the same emphasis on roleplaying situations as combat situations, you generally won't find it in a simulationist RPG (HeroQuest manages it, but that's a narrative game). I don't see this as a flaw, personally - the genres I use Hero for feature combat as an important part (maybe the important part) and I'm happy to "wing it" for roleplaying, while anyone who says that d20 is a better system for roleplaying than Hero is using an argument that is either wrong or at the very least one that I'm not familiar with.

 

I think the main reason d20 is more popular is the simple fact that it's more popular. You're a GM who wants to start a new group - pick D&D and you are more likely to find players than if you pick Hero, and if some of that group bring their newbie buddies along to learn, then they'll learn D&D and the cycle repeats. The same way that people can be famous just for being famous, I guess (cf Paris Hilton).