Help!!! Gate creation question.

[Kari]

Hi,

How to build the ability to create permanent gates between locations?

The actual end result would be something like this: Teleport 1” megascale, gate, independent, OAF bulky gateway, 0-end, increased mass etc.

Now that construct is not a problem per se but how do you build a spell/power that allows you to create a potentially endless amount of these gates? Summon I believe has a maximum limit active at one time?

So how would you do it? Summon? Transform? I am stumped.

Help please.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

You can activate Teleport as many times as you can pay END for it. Or if it has 0END, as many times as the GM allows you.

 

See the 5ER under Teleport for creating Gates, got its own section.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Hi' date='[/font']

 

How to build the ability to create permanent gates between locations?

The actual end result would be something like this: Teleport 1” megascale, gate, independent, OAF bulky gateway, 0-end, increased mass etc.

 

Now that construct is not a problem per se but how do you build a spell/power that allows you to create a potentially endless amount of these gates? Summon I believe has a maximum limit active at one time?

 

So how would you do it? Summon? Transform? I am stumped.

 

Help please.

Do the gates have a physical form or do they just exist? You know, that really doesn't even matter other than for determining whether it has a Focus or not. Let me see...

Paths of Udinor: (Total: 161 Active Cost, 44 Real Cost) Teleportation 12", Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Area Of Effect (13" Radius; +1), Two-Dimensional (-1/4), Continuous (+1), Usable Simultaneously (up to 16 people at once; +1 1/4), MegaScale (1" = 1,000 km; +1), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (150 Active Points); OAF Immobile (-2), Can Only Teleport To Fixed Locations (-1), Gate (-1/2) (Real Cost: 33) plus Teleportation: Fixed Location (11 Locations) (Real Cost: 11)

 

That example is a Gate that only allows passage to 11 other Gates in a Network of 12 (the one you pass through counts as 1 of the 12). Up to 16 people can pass through the gate at once ( I would count a mounted person as 1 for the mount and the rider) and it is large enough to allow wagons to pass through. The area is large enough to cover a relatively Earth-sized planet so the gates can be scattered over the continents.

 

You can buy more Fixed Locations if you like, they are 1 point each, or you can try Floating fixed locations. If you wanted something a little more like Stargate, you could make it a Floating Fixed Location only (change the Limitation to -1/2 and purchase on Floating Fixed Location). I would change the built in limitation that must study the new location for something like; Must Know Location Code. Since you are swapping one limitation for another, I would not offer any additional Limitation value.

 

Other ways you can spice it up. You can require an Incantation to set the gate to a particular opening or perhaps make it extra-time while the gate trains itself to the proper destination. It may Require a Skill Roll to activate the gate. If the gate exists without the need for a Focus, you can remove that Limitation.

 

Hope that helps.

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Um,

 

I may have been unclear as to the purpose of my question, I´ll try to rephrase it.

 

I know how to build a gate or a teleport effect in Hero that is not difficult.

 

What I had in mind was an ability to create an endless amount of permanent gates that does not need be paid with xp for every gate just for the ability to create them. For example a high magic civilization where teleport gates connect every town and village and homestead, and there are wizards whose duty is to create these gates and repair them if they are broken like modern utilities.

 

So the question is how to model the ability to create these gates for anyone to use indefinitely without the person having the gateway ability being present. Ie the gateway guild sends a wizard to connect every house like a modern cablecompany.

 

So how to do this? If for example there needs to be actual physical "gateways" that the gate connects?

 

Sorry I don´t know how be clearer than that.

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

An example of the effect I want to achieve:

 

Teleport 1",Area of effect(one hex),Useable by others, Continuous,Zero-end, Megascale 1"=100km(scales down to 1"=1km),Gate, Independent,1fixed location.

 

The actual costs do not matter.

 

Now the wizard has a spell to create these gates between any two locations he desires and does not need to pay personal xp for these gates that are for all purposes eternal until dispelled. The wizard spends his days connecting places together.

 

So how to do this? Can a Summon work for this spell?

[captainNeda]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

OIPD (Obvious Inescapeable Plot Device). How many experience points does someone have to pay for a car, their house or clothing. Consider it part of the terrain and move on. Heck if a character uses an energy blast to blow a hole in the ground do they have to pay for the hole? If a character falls out of a plane do they have to pay for the damage done by gravity? Does a character have to pay character points for electricity in their home? It can still do damage.

 

The point is use a game mechanic, but make it a plot element not a power. Don't worry about it unless it's like a personal power that only one person has access to. If it's just a gateway that is always open and leads from one point in the universe to another, unless it significantly impacts your game don't worry about the cost and just make it a plot element.

 

Imagine your setting is Stargate. Will you make that part of the environment, or make the characters pay for it?

[GreyGuardian]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Why worry about it? Unless you want the players to be able to make or break or affect the gates the mechanism doesn't matter, it's a plot device. The gates exist. If you want to limit the number or accessibility of creating them I'd attach some sort of resource to them - a gadget you can only get from the transport guild, or a certain amount of stored magic (like Vis in Ars Magica).

 

If the thing is continuous, uncontrolled, and independent once the teleport gate power is started the gate would exist and be useable until whatever condition you set to end a 0 endurance continous power occurs. Or you could give them endurance reserves that the local wizard has to recharge or some such once a year or every decade or every week.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

If I get what you're asking, you would like a wizard to have paid the requisite Character Points to have a spell for creating these gates, but once he's cast it he can go on to do other things, including casting as many more gate-creating spells as he likes in other places, and the created gates will continue to function for anyone to use without his supervision. Do I have that right?

 

In that case, I would say that your last example has you almost all the way there. It has Usable By Others so that people besides the wizard can use it, and Continuous so that it will keep running while he isn't tending to it. Since it's now a Constant Power the wizard can cast it as many times as he likes on succeeding Phases, and all his gates will keep running. I would just add Persistent, so that even if the wizard is unconscious or dead it will continue to function. I'd also suggest making the gate some kind of Universal Focus, the Power being within the Focus itself rather than the wizard, so it doesn't require the wizard remaining within range and Line Of Sight of the spell target area for the gate to work

 

An alternative and cheaper build would be to forego Continuous and Persistent, and build the gate with a Trigger that resets after each use. The wizard can cast as many Triggered spells as he cares to, and wouldn't even necessarily require a Focus - the spell would act repeatedly in the area on which it was cast, without his attention, whenever the Triggering conditions are met.

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Why worry about it? Unless you want the players to be able to make or break or affect the gates the mechanism doesn't matter, it's a plot device. The gates exist. If you want to limit the number or accessibility of creating them I'd attach some sort of resource to them - a gadget you can only get from the transport guild, or a certain amount of stored magic (like Vis in Ars Magica).

 

If the thing is continuous, uncontrolled, and independent once the teleport gate power is started the gate would exist and be useable until whatever condition you set to end a 0 endurance continous power occurs. Or you could give them endurance reserves that the local wizard has to recharge or some such once a year or every decade or every week.

Yes I specifically want this to be an ability a PC can use and the PC:s can affect.

 

The point is that yes I can just go the handwavium route and declare that that is what happens, but if possible I would like to be able to quantify such an ability mechanically without handwavium.

 

One of the inspirations for this construct comes from Mage the Ascencions Correspondence sphere level 3 or 4 effect create portal. In that if you roll high enough for duration the gate is practically permanent.

 

So I wonder if this can be achieved without handwavium?

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

If I get what you're asking, you would like a wizard to have paid the requisite Character Points to have a spell for creating these gates, but once he's cast it he can go on to do other things, including casting as many more gate-creating spells as he likes in other places, and the created gates will continue to function for anyone to use without his supervision. Do I have that right?

 

In that case, I would say that your last example has you almost all the way there. It has Usable By Others so that people besides the wizard can use it, and Continuous so that it will keep running while he isn't tending to it. Since it's now a Constant Power the wizard can cast it as many times as he likes on succeeding Phases, and all his gates will keep running. I would just add Persistent, so that even if the wizard is unconscious or dead it will continue to function. I'd also suggest making the gate some kind of Universal Focus, the Power being within the Focus itself rather than the wizard, so it doesn't require the wizard remaining within range and Line Of Sight of the spell target area for the gate to work

 

An alternative and cheaper build would be to forego Continuous and Persistent, and build the gate with a Trigger that resets after each use. The wizard can cast as many Triggered spells as he cares to, and wouldn't even necessarily require a Focus - the spell would act repeatedly in the area on which it was cast, without his attention, whenever the Triggering conditions are met.

Yes this is what I was asking about. So if I set the trigger to activate whenever somebody steps in the area of effect with automatic reset like so:

Teleport1", area of effect useable as attack,zero end, one fixed location(to be determined at the time of casting), trigger(whenever someone enters the area of effect, resets automatically). Hmm does´nt this provide only one way travel from the location where the Trigger is set?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Try looking at Usable By Others With Differing Modifiers. Build the gate as a Power, then use its Real Cost as the Base Cost for a "Create Gate" Power. For the basis of Create Gate, you'll bring in the rules for UBO; it gets the UBO Advantage, plus probably Persistent (so that it continues while the creator is out of line of sight) and Uncontrolled (which detaches it from the caster). Apply whatever other Advantages and Limitations seem appropriate (Extra Time, Focus, Incantations, Gestures, PS: Stoneworking, whatever). If you're the GM, you can handwave the rest, but this should give you the rules construct basis for the ability. (If you're not the GM, then the answer to this entire thing becomes: Ask your GM.)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Yes this is what I was asking about. So if I set the trigger to activate whenever somebody steps in the area of effect with automatic reset like so:

Teleport1", area of effect useable as attack,zero end, one fixed location(to be determined at the time of casting), trigger(whenever someone enters the area of effect, resets automatically). Hmm does´nt this provide only one way travel from the location where the Trigger is set?

 

Yes, it does. You could just cast a similar gate spell at the other end point of the teleportation path, to allow for a return trip. Since your description implies gates to a network of fixed locations, that shouldn't be a problem.

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Try looking at Usable By Others With Differing Modifiers. Build the gate as a Power' date=' then use its Real Cost as the Base Cost for a "Create Gate" Power. For the basis of Create Gate, you'll bring in the rules for UBO; it gets the UBO Advantage, plus probably Persistent (so that it continues while the creator is out of line of sight) and Uncontrolled (which detaches it from the caster). Apply whatever other Advantages and Limitations seem appropriate (Extra Time, Focus, Incantations, Gestures, PS: Stoneworking, whatever). If you're the GM, you can handwave the rest, but this should give you the rules construct basis for the ability. (If you're not the GM, then the answer to this entire thing becomes: Ask your GM.)[/quote']Thank you, that looks like very useable method. :)

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Yes' date=' it does. You could just cast a similar gate spell at the other end point of the teleportation path, to allow for a return trip. Since your description implies gates to a network of fixed locations, that shouldn't be a problem. [/quote']Well this certainly would seem solve the my problem, thank you.

[Dr.Device]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

You should be able to accomplish what you want by just adding uncontrolled and either 0 END or Costs END only to activate to a standard gate construct.

 

 

Here's how I would do it:

12 Create Minimal Gate: Teleportation 5",Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Usable By Other (+1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Continuous (+1), MegaScale (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (50 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Day, Only to Activate, -2), Gate (-1/2), Physical Manifestation (-0), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Physcial Manifestation is normally -1/4, but since uncontrolled requires there be an obvious way to shut off the power, the physical manifestation is just there as a hook for that. Break the gate and it stops working.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

I know how to build a gate or a teleport effect in Hero that is not difficult.

I misinterpreted your need. Hope you didn't take offense.

 

What I had in mind was an ability to create an endless amount of permanent gates that does not need be paid with xp for every gate just for the ability to create them. For example a high magic civilization where teleport gates connect every town and village and homestead, and there are wizards whose duty is to create these gates and repair them if they are broken like modern utilities.

 

So the question is how to model the ability to create these gates for anyone to use indefinitely without the person having the gateway ability being present. Ie the gateway guild sends a wizard to connect every house like a modern cablecompany.

 

So how to do this? If for example there needs to be actual physical "gateways" that the gate connects?

 

Sorry I don´t know how be clearer than that.

That's a bit different. If these gates can be dispelled by another wizard, then you should probably have some write-up to judge how difficult it would be. If not, then I support the Handwave option.

 

If you do write them up, take a look at Uncontrolled.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Perk: Gate Creator. 5pts.

 

Seriously, this sounds like a background item to the game world. I would worry no more about how to "create" one of these than I would worry about who pays for the phones coming out of cell phone factories.

 

I did read the thread though - and I'm not sure what the UBO is for. The Gate Limitation already covers the ability of others to use a Gate opened by someone.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Perk: Gate Creator. 5pts.

 

Seriously, this sounds like a background item to the game world. I would worry no more about how to "create" one of these than I would worry about who pays for the phones coming out of cell phone factories.

 

But if you wanted to have a character who could create a cell phone at will? That's analogously what the OP was looking for.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

I did read the thread though - and I'm not sure what the UBO is for. The Gate Limitation already covers the ability of others to use a Gate opened by someone.

 

I assumed it was to allow the opening and closing of the gate to be controlled by whoever uses it, instead of leaving it in the hands of the spell caster.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

But if you wanted to have a character who could create a cell phone at will? That's analogously what the OP was looking for.

 

I assumed it was to allow the opening and closing of the gate to be controlled by whoever uses it' date=' instead of leaving it in the hands of the spell caster.[/quote']

 

Ah ... hmmm...

 

Universal Focus (gate controls) & Independent would allow anyone to use the Gate after it's been created.

 

You may not even need Independent.

 

I see this as a lot like asking "how do you build a Sword in Fantasy Hero" - define the effects, make it a Universal Focus and anyone can pick it up. You don't see swords, guns or other equipment built with UBO. This is essentially, if I get the SFX right, a really large piece of equipment.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Ah ... hmmm...

 

Universal Focus (gate controls) & Independent would allow anyone to use the Gate after it's been created.

 

You may not even need Independent.

 

I see this as a lot like asking "how do you build a Sword in Fantasy Hero" - define the effects, make it a Universal Focus and anyone can pick it up. You don't see swords, guns or other equipment built with UBO. This is essentially, if I get the SFX right, a really large piece of equipment.

 

Well, there's the thing: a Focus, even a Universal one, even if it's Independent, is normally an investment in Character Points by the person who creates it. What the OP seems to be going for (I hope he'll correct me if I'm mistaken) is a spellcaster who pays the Character Points for this spell one time, and then can cast it to create Gates wherever he chooses, as many times as he wants to (within the SFX of the spell). I suggested a Resetting Trigger because that's one way to define such an ability mechanically; and Usable On Others would allow control of the enspelled area to pass to someone else, letting the caster "sell" these spells to people who wanted a gate in their vicinity.

[Greywind]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Failing that, just write the whole thing off as a plot device, which it actually is...

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

I misinterpreted your need. Hope you didn't take offense.

 

That's a bit different. If these gates can be dispelled by another wizard, then you should probably have some write-up to judge how difficult it would be. If not, then I support the Handwave option.

 

If you do write them up, take a look at Uncontrolled.

Sorry if I sounded snippy, I was merely exasperated by my own inability to make my point in an understandable fashion. No offense was intended nor taken. (English is not my native language)

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Well' date=' there's the thing: a Focus, even a Universal one, even if it's Independent, is normally an investment in Character Points by the person who creates it. What the OP seems to be going for (I hope he'll correct me if I'm mistaken) is a spellcaster who pays the Character Points for this spell one time, and then can cast it to create Gates wherever he chooses, as many times as he wants to (within the SFX of the spell). I suggested a Resetting Trigger because that's one way to define such an ability mechanically; and Usable On Others would allow control of the enspelled area to pass to someone else, letting the caster "sell" these spells to people who wanted a gate in their vicinity.[/quote']You have certainly understood my intent completely.

So if I understood this correctly UBO is only necessary if I want others to have control wether the gate transports them or not? And if I just want the gate to be part of the scenery so that it works automatically no UBO is necessary?

[Comic]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

For a mechanic to repair an automobile (a vehicle with a specific cost and specific attributes), costs a 3 pt skill, give or take.

 

For an inventor to build a car (same vehicle), costs a 3 pts skill, plus a familiarity with automobile mechanics.

 

Your gate repairman doesn't seem to be much different from either of these. The skill is the thing that enables them to repair or build. The setting is what determines the vehicle, be it ground travel or teleport.

 

It sounds like perks might be involved too, for access to the teleport network as a builder, eg.