Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

[Trebuchet]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

A look at the restrictions imposed on a game and at the characters in the game will tell you where any problems lie.

 

One of the most common problems is that everyone (or almost everyone) hits the AP cap in damage, but not everyone has the same SPD or OCV. The character who has the highest Attack + SPD + OCV values will be the most effective offensively. Setting a base SPD of 5 or 6 and allowing +2 DC for every -1 SPD while enforcing -2 DC for every +1 SPD can help (it also pretty much prohibits double-digit SPD).

 

The next is the ability to project damage. If you have a half-move of 4" or 5" and no ranged attack, you will be in for a long day. Combine that with a low-to-middling SPD and you may spend most of your time performing full moves on the outside chance at causing damage. If you've got a ranged attack or a lot of movement, then you don't worry about these things. This can be mitigated by fighting in a "phone booth" setting, but it remains a problem elsewhere.

 

Yes, bricks can pick up and throw things, but some have greater respect for property than others (most heroes probably should). You either need lots of abandoned high-DEF property around for throwing purposes or a very small setting to even out the ability to project damage.

 

Offensively, Bricks tend to have low base CV, AP-cap damage, minimal movement, and low SPD. They have fewer opportunities to project damage in any given turn and it can be more difficult for them to hit, assuming they can make it to a target. This is not an absolute, but rather the stereotypical Brick.

 

Defensively, bricks tend to have low CVs, high defenses, high resistant defenses, and (sometimes) hardened defenses. They'll get hit, but they can take it as well as any other character and often better. Again, though, watch for situations where every character can take the same sort of hits due to game limits. However, Bricks tend to have more STUN than other stereotypes, so they can take more damage. This is important, because they will take more damage (they're easy to hit and look dangerous) and they'll need it to stay awake throughout a battle.

 

As mentioned above, most don't get the benefit of Elemental Controls. Those that do will often have more variety than those that don't, but they'll still have to deal with AP caps. They're more likely to dump some points into Brick Tricks MPs or harden all their defenses or whatever. Still, they're restricted by AP caps and they won't have the same ability or opportunity to project damage.

 

Next, think about Flexibility. Few bricks have the same sort of flexibility as the multipower-wielding counterparts. The swiss army knife of HERO, the multipower allows a character to switch from ineffective attacks to effective attacks with no more than a thought. The bigger the multipower, the less likely the character will get caught in a situation where they can't harm a target. Brick Tricks are good multipower fodder, but rarely as varied as the typical energy projector.

 

Now, what about the Flying Brick and Brickster builds? They have a better ability to project damage, but also pay for that out of their other abilities. They probably can't rely on an EC to keep the cost down either, so it'll cost dearly. Still, it'll be more effective in combat if only due to the increase ability and/or opportunity to cause damage in any given turn.

 

Instead of saying "STR is too cheap!" look at what each character can do every round. Look at OCV, SPD, DC, range, movement, and flexibility. These will show you who holds the most offensive power in the game. Then look at DCV, STUN, SPD, movement, defenses, and the improvements to those defenses. Those will tell you who has the greatest defensive power in the game. Due to the bell curve, CV is extremely important, though not quite as important as SPD and the ability to project damage (movement and/or range).

The relationship between SPD and Damage Classes is why our campaign's "Rule of X" (so far as we have one) is SPD + DC <= 20. While it doesn't create precise balance (no Rule of X can do that), it does tend to keep our Champions characters within shouting distance in terms of combat effectiveness.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

The relationship between SPD and Damage Classes is why our campaign's "Rule of X" (so far as we have one) is SPD + DC <= 20. While it doesn't create precise balance (no Rule of X can do that)' date=' it does tend to keep our Champions characters within shouting distance in terms of combat effectiveness.[/quote']

 

 

Well, I'm certainly not going to start ranting about Speed here............

 

Ok, a little. It seems like your Rule of X would be better served by doubling the weight of Speed in the equation. I suspect that the way it's currently weighted you're more like to have a 10 Speed, 10 DC guy (100d6 per turn) than a 4 Speed 16d6 guy (64D6 Per turn), with virtually the whole group in the 6-8 Speed, 14-12 DC, or 84-96d6/turn. If you double the value for Speed and raise the Rule of X to 24, 4 Spd 16DC will do exactly the same d6 per turn as 8 Speed 8DC. And 8 Speed becomes a lot less inviting when your throwing 8d6 attacks. You'll probably end up with a glut at the 6 Speed 12DC range as that provides your best total DC per turn.

 

One of the areas I do feel bricks get hosed in is the perception that they should have lower Speeds than average. I feel that this actually hearkens back to the old days when the Haymaker was the most broken maneuver and the threat of one meant that you always had to keep phases available to Dodge when facing a brick.

 

The old rule, for those unfamiliar with it, had the same penalties as a Haymaker now (lands at end of next segment, etc) but the upside was that Strength was multiplied x1 1/2 for damage purpose. That meant that the 60 strength guy who was at the upper limit could pull out an 18d6 attack for no increased End whenever he felt like waiting a segment for it to hit. If the brick had the same Speed as his opponent, he frequently just tried a Haymaker every phase because if it connects the fight was usually over. This ridiculous attack was 'free', it was part of the basic combat maneuvers so anyone could do it. And IMO, to balance it's power, they started giving bricks lower Speeds than they deserved.

 

And people have kind of stuck with it even though theres no longer a good reason for it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Well, I'm certainly not going to start ranting about Speed here............

 

Ok, a little. It seems like your Rule of X would be better served by doubling the weight of Speed in the equation. I suspect that the way it's currently weighted you're more like to have a 10 Speed, 10 DC guy (100d6 per turn) than a 4 Speed 16d6 guy (64D6 Per turn), with virtually the whole group in the 6-8 Speed, 14-12 DC, or 84-96d6/turn. If you double the value for Speed and raise the Rule of X to 24, 4 Spd 16DC will do exactly the same d6 per turn as 8 Speed 8DC. And 8 Speed becomes a lot less inviting when your throwing 8d6 attacks. You'll probably end up with a glut at the 6 Speed 12DC range as that provides your best total DC per turn.

Our SPD 4 brick does 15d6; our SPD 9 MA does 10d6. Despite the fact it's only a guideline and not a cap, nobody has cracked 20 yet although we have one PC at 20.

 

Your method is wrong because of the threshhold nature of Hero damage. Damage below the target's defenses is simply ignored; which means that 10 10d6 attacks does not equal 100d6 damage. Four 16d6 against a target with reasonably stout defenses is going to put a lot more hurt on that target than ten 10d6 attacks. An example from our campaign: a single 10d6 attack by the above MA upon our team's brick on average will leak 3 STUN through 32 PD. Do it 8 more times and she's still only inflicted 27 STUN for an entire Turn. Now have SPD 4 brick hit said MA with one 15d6 punch. The MA is Stunned, rendered unconscious, and takes an average of 3 BODY from one hit.

 

If we used your double-weight to SPD method, the less effective MA becomes even less effective - maybe even useless. If everyone crunches the numbers and decides to build SPD 6 12DC characters, we'd end up with exactly the kind of character similarity eliminating the hard cap was intended to eliminate.

 

Our method works just fine as a guideline. It wasn't intended as a hard cap; it merely provides a benchmark so players know roughly where to design their characters.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Your method is wrong because of the threshhold nature of Hero damage. Damage below the target's defenses is simply ignored; which means that 10 10d6 attacks does not equal 100d6 damage. Four 16d6 against a target with reasonably stout defenses is going to put a lot more hurt on that target than ten 10d6 attacks. An example from our campaign: a single 10d6 attack by the above MA upon our team's brick on average will leak 3 STUN through 32 PD. Do it 8 more times and she's still only inflicted 27 STUN for an entire Turn. Now have SPD 4 brick hit said MA with one 15d6 punch. The MA is Stunned' date=' rendered unconscious, and takes an average of 3 BODY from one hit.[/quote']

 

First off, I agree with Treb. It's Stun inflicted after defenses, not Stun rolled, that matters. The Brick is an extreme example, likely having higher than normal defenses. Assuming 20 - 25 defenses as a norm:

 

- at 20 defenses, 10d6 averages 15 points x 9 = 105 points per turn

16d6 averages 36 x 4 = 144 points per turn

 

- At 25 defenses, 10d6 average 10 poinst x 9 = 90

16d6 averages 31 x 4 = 124 points per turn

 

Not to mention the 16d6 is much more likely to Stun the target.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I wasn't recommending any particular method or criticizing yours, Hero is way too complex to make judgments based on a single stat or rule. I was just making a quick analysis based on very incomplete data.

 

However, your reply underscores another of the primary hosers of the brick; the martial artist. The martial artist, as do all the pc's, insists on relevancy. This means that they want to be able to damage things in combat, and in my opinion, this is the great head of the Ouroboros effect which leads to discussions about character type X being screwed.

 

One of my favorite all time comics was PM/IF where they encounter the Hulk. Luke Cage had encountered him before, but Iron Fist had only heard about him. So IF tried some of the tactics he found useful against bricks like his partner. He tried attacking nerve centers, weak points, and then in desperation used the ultimate expression of his skill and power as a martial artist, he channeled his chi into his fist until it became LIKE UNTO A FIST OF IRON!

 

Hulk: Why green man try to burn Hulk?

 

To me this 'fight' is a great example of the way comics should translate into Hero. One, the brick is fast. He's a natural fighter, and he's made of muscle. He's not giving up 3 or 4 points of Speed to the martial artist. Two, he can't hit the martial artist. The DCV of the little fast guy is way too high for him to connect even with the martial artist attacking constantly. Three, the martial artist can't hurt the brick. Not even a little bit. He's a 'normal' guy with reflexes fast enough to dodge bullets and attacks which can shatter stone. But howitzer rounds bounce off the brick, and anyone who's directly seen the actual effect those things have will confirm that breaking a rock, even a big one, isn't close in destructive potential. Fourth, when it turns out that the martial artist can't hurt the brick, he doesn't cry to the gm how unfair it is.

 

 

I'm fully aware of the way threshold type defenses impact characters; I usually play martial artists. One of the ways I simulate what I described above is to buy extra damage that only affects a certain threshold or lower. This allows my characters to knock out lower powered guys as quickly and efficiently as the brick but means that some characters aren't hurt by my attacks. This type of limitation is practically ubiquitous in my games, as many npc's when I'm gming have similar things.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

sure, a brick hitting a martial artist leaves an impact and a light hitting martial artist barely scratches the brick.

 

But what are the odds?

 

All of these calculations assume that everyone hits all the time, which may be more or less accurate for when martial artists attack bricks, but can't be reasonably assumed to be true for the reverse scenario.

 

Also, the convenient calculation of avg damage - defenses = average damage inflicted is only true when defenses = 0 or exceed maximum damage, in other words, never.

[Comic]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I have to aim for games somewhere between 'all characters are created identical' and 'translation folly' when I play.

 

I want my Bricks to mostly soak most damage most of the time, hence to be 'more like' the Hulk, Thing, Colossus, Juggernaut, etc. rather than less.

 

I want my MA's to mostly be swift-reflexed nigh-untouchable combatants who can roll with those few blows that do connect past their defensive maneuvering, hence be more like Bruce Lee, Steven Segal, Chuck Norris and the Three Stooges and so forth.

 

If everyone has democratically equalized sheets that perfectly match point for point across the board, then someone's failed somewhere, just as certainly as if someone's built a character who is utterly unable to affect another character of roughly the same points.

 

In the middle ground, it's natural to expect to hear complaints about fairness, and it's good to examine, analyze and address them.

 

Progress for progress' sake should be discouraged. What can be perfected ought to be. At the same time, pruning of ... Oh. Wait. Wrong speech. Uh. Nevermind.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

However' date=' your reply underscores another of the primary hosers of the brick; the martial artist. The martial artist, as do all the pc's, insists on relevancy. This means that they want to be able to damage things in combat, and in my opinion, this is the great head of the Ouroboros effect which leads to discussions about character type X being screwed.[/quote']I don't think any character type gets screwed in Hero. All have their strengths and weaknesses. That there are still occasional reruns of these kinds of complaints doesn't mean they are valid IMO.

 

To me this 'fight' is a great example of the way comics should translate into Hero. One, the brick is fast. He's a natural fighter, and he's made of muscle. He's not giving up 3 or 4 points of Speed to the martial artist. Two, he can't hit the martial artist. The DCV of the little fast guy is way too high for him to connect even with the martial artist attacking constantly. Three, the martial artist can't hurt the brick. Not even a little bit. He's a 'normal' guy with reflexes fast enough to dodge bullets and attacks which can shatter stone. But howitzer rounds bounce off the brick, and anyone who's directly seen the actual effect those things have will confirm that breaking a rock, even a big one, isn't close in destructive potential. Fourth, when it turns out that the martial artist can't hurt the brick, he doesn't cry to the gm how unfair it is.

I'd have no complaints whatsoever if my MA was totally unable to hurt our brick on an average roll. We've actually been pushing our brick's player to buy up her defenses a bit higher, but he's reluctant to do so.

 

I'm fully aware of the way threshold type defenses impact characters; I usually play martial artists. One of the ways I simulate what I described above is to buy extra damage that only affects a certain threshold or lower. This allows my characters to knock out lower powered guys as quickly and efficiently as the brick but means that some characters aren't hurt by my attacks. This type of limitation is practically ubiquitous in my games, as many npc's when I'm gming have similar things.

In fights against agents or other martial artists, the 8d6 - 10d6 damage typical of most superhero-level martial artists should be more than adequate without additional damage below a defense threshold tacked on. Even if it takes two or three hits to put down the opponent, that's not unlike most martial arts fights in comics and film. If those same attacks mostly bounce off a given brick, then I'd say both were designed correctly.

[Zorak1003]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

To me, the reasons behind elemental controls are so vaguely defined, either EVERYONE should have one, or NOBODY should have one. I choose the latter.

 

In my first Champions campaign, I used ECs all the time, powered armor ECs. flame powers ECs, insect-related powers ECs, you name it, and I realized it was just ridiculous. Most powers that might be used in a EC are better served in a multipower, in my opinion, or with some common limitation or other, that actually DOES limit the power.

 

And I can't see a "reward for a strong character conception" when I demand that ALL my characters have strong conceptions. I can't see a reason why the Human Torch should get a break on his powers, while Bat-Man pays full price for his skills, martial arts and gadgets. Bat-Man's "character concept" is just as strong, if not a great deal stronger.

 

On the subject of hosed bricks, they're frankly pretty cheap, already. Strength, defenses, a little combat skill, what else do they really NEED? I always had a lot more trouble figuring out what to spend a villain bricks extra points on than finding points for them. (I'm talking your basic "Hulk Smash!" bad guy- Obviously, heroes are going to want to be more well rounded- Still, never a problem)

 

I did have one player who always complained that bricks got 2 extra dice of damage for free from the base 10 strength.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

To me, the reasons behind elemental controls are so vaguely defined, either EVERYONE should have one, or NOBODY should have one. I choose the latter.

 

In my first Champions campaign, I used ECs all the time, powered armor ECs. flame powers ECs, insect-related powers ECs, you name it, and I realized it was just ridiculous. Most powers that might be used in a EC are better served in a multipower, in my opinion, or with some common limitation or other, that actually DOES limit the power.

That merely illustrates the EC's need close scrutiny by the GM. I agree they can be overused (I wouldn't allow "Powered Armor" or "Kryptonian Physiology" or "Gamma-Irradiated Body" as the bases for an Elemental Control), but the basic concept is well illustrated within the source material - The Human Torch and Storm being two obvious examples.

 

EC's are best utilized to build characters whose powers all derive from a common source, so if one of those powers is Drained or Suppressed they all are. It really sucks when Draining your N-Ray Vision shuts down your Force Field and Flight at the same time.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

To me' date=' the reasons behind elemental controls are so vaguely defined, either EVERYONE should have one, or NOBODY should have one. I choose the latter.[/quote']

I'm starting to lean toward that decision as well.

 

However, I have a Champions character that I've used for a very long time (maybe since 1st ed? I don't remember), who really wouldn't be viable without his EC. And even with the EC, he still bends the rules a little (GM permission). He's a standard 350-point character, who has 50% Resistant Damage Reduction, but only 6 PD and 6 ED (non-resistant). He has some slightly below-average Martial Arts (11d6 max attack). His only movement power is 9" of Leaping. He also has Regeneration. Overall, he's sort of a semi-martial artist and mini-brick. Because he's such a non-standard archetype, he's very expensive to build. For all the rules I bent in building him (I put the DR in his EC, for example), he's still a pretty weak character. Without the EC, I'd have to cut his power back even more.

 

My interim conclusion is to allow EC's only for "weird" character builds that are inherently inefficient and need the discount to remain competitive with more standard character types.

 

But you're right in that there is an inherent problem with ECs that doesn't exist with MPs and VPPs: A MP or VPP always costs more Real Points than the total amount of power available at any one time would cost. An EC however, costs less than the Real Points of power available.

[pinecone]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I'm starting to lean toward that decision as well.

 

However, I have a Champions character that I've used for a very long time (maybe since 1st ed? I don't remember), who really wouldn't be viable without his EC. And even with the EC, he still bends the rules a little (GM permission). He's a standard 350-point character, who has 50% Resistant Damage Reduction, but only 6 PD and 6 ED (non-resistant). He has some slightly below-average Martial Arts (11d6 max attack). His only movement power is 9" of Leaping. He also has Regeneration. Overall, he's sort of a semi-martial artist and mini-brick. Because he's such a non-standard archetype, he's very expensive to build. For all the rules I bent in building him (I put the DR in his EC, for example), he's still a pretty weak character. Without the EC, I'd have to cut his power back even more.

 

My interim conclusion is to allow EC's only for "weird" character builds that are inherently inefficient and need the discount to remain competitive with more standard character types.

 

But you're right in that there is an inherent problem with ECs that doesn't exist with MPs and VPPs: A MP or VPP always costs more Real Points than the total amount of power available at any one time would cost. An EC however, costs less than the Real Points of power available.

 

Where is the source of trouble? The martial brick is a fav of mine, and I've built many a DR x1/2 PDr and EDr martial master, and at 350 it's usually not too hard.... so I am just curious as to what makes this particular build difficult,this time...?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Where is the source of trouble? The martial brick is a fav of mine' date=' and I've built many a DR x1/2 PDr and EDr martial master, and at 350 it's usually not too hard.... so I am just curious as to what makes this particular build difficult,this time...?[/quote']

 

It's also pretty easy to legally include the Damage Reduction in an EC as well.

 

Stretch Armstrong

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

I would disagree' date=' mostly because many of the powers you describe are inherently more efficient than powers that cost END. A force field is almost always a bad choice for defense, and Strength is one of the most efficient powers in the game.[/quote']

 

 

Exactly! Bricks are IMO one of the cheapest and easiest character archetypes to build. This to me seems to even the balance a bit.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Bricks Get Hosed, Or Not

 

Where is the source of trouble? The martial brick is a fav of mine' date=' and I've built many a DR x1/2 PDr and EDr martial master, and at 350 it's usually not too hard.... so I am just curious as to what makes this particular build difficult,this time...?[/quote']

Well, he's basically a damage sink. Low defenses, high Recovery and Regen (including Resurrection), plus Full Life Support, about 50 points of Enhanced Senses. Plus the DR costs 60 (before the EC). All that (all important for the concept) eats up a lot of points. He's been called a "recovery monster" which I have found is not a particularly strong tactical choice. He gets KO'ed a lot. He get's killed a lot. Fortunately that's not a problem for him. One of his best moments came when a very large team of agents sprayed him with machine gun fire. He goes down in a mangled bloody heap as the smoke clears. Then he gets back up. For a Presence Attack bonus, I tend to think that surviving an extremely violent action is worth about the same as performing an extremely violent action.