Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

[lapsedgamer]

I have never played a character with either Shrinking or Growth as powers. The other day, I was toying around with building one as I try to reacquaint myself with the system.

 

Shrinking is starting to bug me a little. I realize that in comics characters like Ant-Man and The Atom are said to have the same strength when shruken as they do when they are full-sized. OK, it's comic book land and things like that happen. However, the rules say that a shrunken character does not suffer in any way from being small.

 

I can see energy blast and things like that, but I can't see movement rates being handled that way. A guy who is less that an inch high can still run, swim, climb or leap the same distances as when he was six feet tall? Does everyone play that way? Even in the comics they acknowledged that The Atom had to travel through phone lines, or Hank Pym had to catch a ride on a flying ant.

 

Another thing about the STR rule. If I have a character that is six inches tall, and he has a STR or 15, am I really going to allow him to pick up and carry a full-sized 200# person even though he could by the rules? In the comics, you had full-powered punches by small heroes, or heroes growing up under someone's foot to lift and throw them. I don't recall a shrunken Atom picking up Batman and carrying him around.

 

Another thing: The DCV bonus. I understand that the shrunken character gets a DCV bonus and a character with Growth gets a DCV minus. However, does a character with enough Growth get a OCV penalty vs. normal sized targets? If you play it that way, it would be almost impossible for them to hit normal sized targets while being sitting ducks for them.

 

I know what you are thinking: they get area effect on their hands and feet at certain point. OK, but does a normal sized person then get this bonus against a shrunken character at some point? I mean that's how I manage to swat flies though am large and clumsy; the swatter is broad and travels fast because of the holes.

 

Am I thinking about this too much or have others fixed this to their liking, and if so how.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

When thinking about the effect of a shrunk character interacting with full size ones it's often convenient to consider relative size. Would you allow a 6' tall pc to pick up something 96' tall and throw it even if the object only weighed 200 lbs? Thats the same as a 5" tall one picking up a normal person and throwing it.

 

In game terms its' allowable, and similar things happen sometimes in the comics so it's probably better to let it ride unless you really can't stand it. Then make up some ruling which you'll probably need to be flexible about cause you'll run into a case where your new rule seems to work worse than the original.

 

As far as the relative size of characters, normal size is the default and all the modifiers work off it. Yes, that means there are a few situations where the rule doesn't seem to have internal consistency but they're necessary for playability and frankly to make Growth viable. Can you imagine anyone paying for Growth if they got -DCV and every normal sized person got + DCV vs. them?

 

One change I do use to these power is that if the size alteration is Inherent then it becomes the default size for that individual only. So a race of creatures that's Inherently Shrunk do in fact get a + DCV vs normals AND normals get - DCV to them.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

The Ultimate Metamorph covers these actually. Expanding on almost every point you brought up.

 

Reduce movement accordingly for instance. If you're going from the Base 2m person to a 6cm person then your "hex" goes from 2m to 6cm and 6" of running goes from 6 2m Hexes to 6 6cm Hexes (i.e. A Full goes from moving 12m to 36cm).

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

One of the only things I never had any problem with was the way Hero handles movement for Shrunk characters. Since your Strength doesn't get reduced as you get smaller but your mass reduces significantly your leaping should actually go up. If you could leap 4 meters when your mass is 100 kg you can certainly justify a lot more leaping when you weigh 2 grams.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

UNITL Superpowers Data Base I & II also deals with said powers.

 

I like Compactor from Champions of the North. A supervillianess whose power to Shrink added to her Density Increase. Really Cool Brickette.

 

 

IMOHO

 

 

QM

[Comic]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

In random order, as I'm nonlinear for the moment.

 

For every level of shrinking without corresponding mass increase or strength loss, I follow the rule of adding 3" of leaping, since leaping and throwing are based on extra strength, not flat strength, no? Or has that changed?

 

For me, a Str 15 hero with 5 levels of Shrinking leaps 18"(9" up), ceteris parebus.

 

The terminal velocity of a shrinker is reduced by the same 3" for every level of Shrinking. At 10 levels of Shrinking, you sort of drift as the wind blows, by the same logic. (Again, unless density increases.)

 

The shorter legs and more limited height do reduce 'ambulation' type walking/running, but athletic vaulting/bouncing/hopping/jumping and hurdling more or less make up for these restrictions with a Shrinker, unless as part of the power the character sells back movement.

 

Riding flying insects is a really great way of getting controlled flight from a follower (vehicle?) and encouraging characters to spend points on skills like riding and animal handling. Also, since it's controlled flight, it's arguably better than bouncing around, since a mean GM can request rolling to hit targets when moving beyond reasonable range of one's own stride, I'd suggest.

 

As for lifting someone of normal weight and size while abnormally small but strong for that size, I'd tend to (if feeling mean) treat STR as Armor Piercing or even Killing, as pinpoint-sized fingers clamp on their steely grip to normal flesh. Of course, a killing attack that penetrates less than a tenth of an inch into the skin doesn't do BODY damage unless it's pretty persistently applied.. but it'd be annoying. I'm annoyed by normal bugs walking on my skin, and they have STR far into the negatives.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

What "extra STR" are you referring to?

 

You get 1" Horizontal and 1/2" vertical Leap for every 5 STR.

10STR gives you 2" Leaping.

 

I believe Ultimate Brick might have some alternate methods of calculating Leaping, but I don't have my copy on me to check.

[Comic]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

I speak of ancient and arcane ways of Champions before.

 

In previous times, leaping distances were calculated like throwing distances, based on how much the leaper weighed.

 

Dunno how people do it now, but for Champions, I'm as likely to grandfather the old leaping chart as the old Instant Change power.

 

Not like you can leap very far while carrying someone, if you're shrunk and they're not. And it tends to balance for the extra 3" of knockback per level of Shrinking.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

The Ultimate Metamorph covers these actually. Expanding on almost every point you brought up.

 

Reduce movement accordingly for instance. If you're going from the Base 2m person to a 6cm person then your "hex" goes from 2m to 6cm and 6" of running goes from 6 2m Hexes to 6 6cm Hexes (i.e. A Full goes from moving 12m to 36cm).

 

I looked at Ulitmate Metamorph again, and it seemed to be talking about extremes of Shrinking and Growth: Macroversal and Microversal scales. I will continue to look at it to see if I can find some satisfaction.

 

I like the thoughts on leaping and mass vs. STR. Maybe I can just be satisfied in saying that the movement rates are actaully based on something like this, and calling the actual means of locomotion a special effect.

 

I would probably rule against a shrinken character lifting the a normal sized one on principle. I don't think anyone would dispute that ruling.

 

I wonder if by approaching the issue in any of these ways, I would be arbitrarily gving the character a -1/4 disadvantage reduced by Shrinking by default. Would players get upset?

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

Shrinking definitely doesn't need more cost breaks to make it desirable. 40 points provides +8DCV, the same as 40 points in DCV CSL's. It also allows a few other things, like +8d6 attacks with Growth momentum.

 

I haven't bought Metamorph yet, though it's on my short list. One of my favorite attacks is the sfx Growth momentum attack, where I just buy HA and the sfx is that I grew big enough to use Growth momentum but then shrunk immediately. I also allow Shrinking momentum where appropriate, though this is rare.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

I looked at Ulitmate Metamorph again, and it seemed to be talking about extremes of Shrinking and Growth: Macroversal and Microversal scales. I will continue to look at it to see if I can find some satisfaction.

 

I like the thoughts on leaping and mass vs. STR. Maybe I can just be satisfied in saying that the movement rates are actaully based on something like this, and calling the actual means of locomotion a special effect.

 

I would probably rule against a shrinken character lifting the a normal sized one on principle. I don't think anyone would dispute that ruling.

 

I wonder if by approaching the issue in any of these ways, I would be arbitrarily gving the character a -1/4 disadvantage reduced by Shrinking by default. Would players get upset?

 

Shrinking (UMM p51) has a guideline for reducing Characterisitics while shrunk (STR, Leaping, etc)

 

UMM p222 has the movement guidelines - while it's part of the Microverse discussion it has universal implications as the examples presented don't fit the Microverse criteria.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

Shrinking (UMM p51) has a guideline for reducing Characterisitics while shrunk (STR, Leaping, etc)

 

UMM p222 has the movement guidelines - while it's part of the Microverse discussion it has universal implications as the examples presented don't fit the Microverse criteria.

 

Right. However, UMM page 51 is actually very close to the wording of the standard Shrinking rules from 5ER. It say that the character does not lose any of his abiliies in STR, movement, or attacks unless you want to give each of those abilities a -1/4 disadvantage.

 

I also wondered if the Macroverse/Microverse concepts are meant to apply at more "normal" levels of Growth and Shrinking. It would appear that anything that I did in that direction would again classify as a unrewarded disadvantage. Thouh I do kind of like the unified Alter Size concept on page 54 of UMM. Maybe.

 

Also, the relative size discussion in the Body-Affecting Power section of UMM (page 17) appears to indicate that you can and should take into account relative size, which still leaves me with the question about Giants vs. normal sized. That thought might nerf characters with Growth.

 

My question is if I rule that by default all shrunken characters experience this loss am I treating the player with Shrinking or Growth unfairly. Again, would I be nerfing his concept?

 

I'm thinking about this too much. It's just a game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

on UMM p51 it mentions the possibility to losing some of those stats, typically no more than 5 Active Points of characteristics for each 10pts of Shrinking.

 

5ER also have a Size Modifier Table for attacking objects of differing size categories as an optional rule.

 

And quite simply apply some dramatic and common sense. Any Man of STR30 still can't lift that car - it's far too bulky and awkward compared to his size.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

on UMM p51 it mentions the possibility to losing some of those stats, typically no more than 5 Active Points of characteristics for each 10pts of Shrinking.

 

5ER also have a Size Modifier Table for attacking objects of differing size categories as an optional rule.

 

And quite simply apply some dramatic and common sense. Any Man of STR30 still can't lift that car - it's far too bulky and awkward compared to his size.

 

I read UMM page 51 to mean that the loss of Active Points would be as a result of taking the -1/4 limitation not as a standard rule for the power. Am I missing something?

 

And yes common and dramatic sense should rule the day. I am definitely thinking about this too much.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

Yeah - the part referring back to taking the Limitation is presented in Parenthesis with the word "Alternately" preceding it - indicating it's a different method of doing it.

 

You can impose a 5AP Characteristic Loss for every 10Pts of Shrinking, or Alternately you can use the Side Effect option presented in 5ER.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

Yeah - the part referring back to taking the Limitation is presented in Parenthesis with the word "Alternately" preceding it - indicating it's a different method of doing it.

 

You can impose a 5AP Characteristic Loss for every 10Pts of Shrinking, or Alternately you can use the Side Effect option presented in 5ER.

 

To me, this still indicates that there is a limatation involved. If you impose the mandatory side effect according to page 307 of 5ER you still owe the player -1/4 on those attributes.

 

By the way, This is actually just good practice and study for me, not intended as an argument. I appreciate you taking the time to help me sort this out in my head, and will rep you accordingly. Bigdamnhero always praises your knowledge, and rightly so.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

To me, this still indicates that there is a limatation involved. If you impose the mandatory side effect according to page 307 of 5ER you still owe the player -1/4 on those attributes.

 

By the way, This is actually just good practice and study for me, not intended as an argument. I appreciate you taking the time to help me sort this out in my head, and will rep you accordingly. Bigdamnhero always praises your knowledge, and rightly so.

 

If it's an All Game Effect, in other words there is no other option or way around it, then no - you don't owe the player anything as they are no more hindered or helped than anyone else in the campaign world.

 

It fact, it goes the opposite way now - if you want to keep your stats while shrunk you're applying an Advantage to the Power since you're now the exception to the rule.

 

A Game only needs to be internally consistent, it's rules don't have to match another Games rules.

Of course, by that token you could require them to take the Side Effect Limitation and buying it off becomes the exception (which should be heavily regulated). It could really go either way in all honestly.

 

(you're welcome - I love talking shop about setting up a Games internal workings.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

If it's an All Game Effect, in other words there is no other option or way around it, then no - you don't owe the player anything as they are no more hindered or helped than anyone else in the campaign world.

 

It fact, it goes the opposite way now - if you want to keep your stats while shrunk you're applying an Advantage to the Power since you're now the exception to the rule.

 

A Game only needs to be internally consistent, it's rules don't have to match another Games rules.

Of course, by that token you could require them to take the Side Effect Limitation and buying it off becomes the exception (which should be heavily regulated). It could really go either way in all honestly.

 

In my view, if I'm going to change a power such that it becomes less valuable compared to where it was before (and, by extension, compared to other powers or uses of points), it would be apropriate to modify the price accordingly. You can make all Killing Attacks take Reduced Penetration, No Stun Multiple and No Kncokback at no point savings too, but don't expect anyone to actually buy it at 15 points per 1d6.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

Oh, I'm by no means advocating reducing a Power to a point where it's not worth taking or too expensive for what it provides. But I do think that sometimes tweaking the nature of a Power so it operates differently isn't all bad.

 

Big Damn Hero has an alternate form of Killing Attack that just counts dice differently (I wish I could remember the exact mechanic, it's similar to the way Normal Attacks work) that doesn't make the price not worth it.

 

We aren't currently using it because we have several New To Hero gamers and decided to go close to As Written.

 

For instance - with Shrinking I wouldn't have much issue saying your Movement Inches are also reduced proportionately (1" = Level Of Shrinking), but I wouldn't reduce STR, just apply some common sense regarding relative size of objects and such. More often than not the reduced Movement will take care of the Pick It Up And Move It issue.

[Arkham]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

I think it really depends on the Age of the game you're running. A bronze or iron age game could certainly require such limitations on normal uses of shrinking. But in a golden/silver age game, having a 1/2" tall person pick up a normal size person and carry them around would fully fit the source material, at least as much as Mighty Mouse, Atom Ant, or Superman can pick up an oil tanker by one end and carry it around.

 

It also would depend greatly on special effect. I don't recall the Atom ever having issues getting around, you just see him in different places from panel to panel, though I must admit I have only a few appearances of him from the silver age to judge by. But a FF/Challengers of the Unknown type team, where someone builds a Shrinking Ray for either nefarious, or experimental purposes, then the limits of small size become the whole point of the adventure.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

I think it really depends on the Age of the game you're running. A bronze or iron age game could certainly require such limitations on normal uses of shrinking. But in a golden/silver age game, having a 1/2" tall person pick up a normal size person and carry them around would fully fit the source material, at least as much as Mighty Mouse, Atom Ant, or Superman can pick up an oil tanker by one end and carry it around.

 

It also would depend greatly on special effect. I don't recall the Atom ever having issues getting around, you just see him in different places from panel to panel, though I must admit I have only a few appearances of him from the silver age to judge by. But a FF/Challengers of the Unknown type team, where someone builds a Shrinking Ray for either nefarious, or experimental purposes, then the limits of small size become the whole point of the adventure.

 

That is probably the best way to think about it. Add to that the earlier comments about dramatic sense, and the issue should resolve itself. That is as long as the players and the GM are on the same sheet of music.

[Hermit]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

Forgive the thread necromancy, but since I brought it up in another thread and found out I'm not alone...

Does anyone else think Growth is short changed?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

Generally, yes. The DCV penalty is pretty huge if you don't buy up appropriate levels of defense. It's also fairly common for a Growth based character to not be able to use his abilities, either due to the weight or hight (once you get over 12' or so there are a bunch of situations where you can't function). This happens about half as much with DI based characters. I've seen it happen exactly once with a Shrinking based character (high winds made going small a bad idea).

 

Many of the powers you should logically have with Growth need to be bought separately (though they can be linked to save some points at least). This isn't true of Shrinking, which I feel often gives you MORE than your concept demands for the points you invest.

 

I also think growth based characters tend to suffer pretty badly in your standard 12 DC/60 AP game.

 

Growth and Shrinking are also inconsistely represented in games all the time. For example, characters with Growth are often expected to buy AoE for their strength to represent their ability to hit multiple small tagets with their massive fists. Yet most people do not give AoE as an advantage to normal sized character attacking a foe with Shrinking.

 

If you get Aoe for being 10 times bigger then your opponent, it only makes sense that a normal sized person would have it against an opponent being 10 smaller

[Hermit]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

Generally, yes. The DCV penalty is pretty huge if you don't buy up appropriate levels of defense.

Yeah, and if called shots are allowed... and your villain has any tactical sense at all, color yourself screwed by near constant headshots with a good chance of striking. I've actually been looking for a house rule appropriate to allowing called shots without totally hosing growing types.

 

I also think growth based characters tend to suffer pretty badly in your standard 12 DC/60 AP game.

 

That's true too. A DC Cap on a game is hard on Growth characters since even a mere 20 STR naturally plus 40 points of Growth means that in any situation where you can not use your growth, you are now stuck at 'tough agent' level damage. Where as the Brick who bought his STR up straight to 60 is never without.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shrinking and Growth: Comics vs. HERO System.

 

Yeah, and if called shots are allowed... and your villain has any tactical sense at all, color yourself screwed by near constant headshots with a good chance of striking. I've actually been looking for a house rule appropriate to allowing called shots without totally hosing growing types.

 

Range modifiers can come in handy here.

 

That's true too. A DC Cap on a game is hard on Growth characters since even a mere 20 STR naturally plus 40 points of Growth means that in any situation where you can not use your growth, you are now stuck at 'tough agent' level damage. Where as the Brick who bought his STR up straight to 60 is never without.

 

I have on occasion used Multiform instead of Growth/Shrinking because of issues like this, but I know plenty of people that would consider that cheesy (especially since it's usually a cheaper and more powerful way to go).